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I have little patience for alcoholics, as the result.
Not just with alcoholics, Z.
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These guys had residences in Fairfield County, in CT.
My dad was a helluva a smart guy and helped a lot of people. But, he was a monster when he drank. We kids prayed he would pass out at night. As the oldest boy, I would have to inject myself into the fray nightly to protect my mom.
I once read an article by a woman alcoholic who was quite forthright. She wresteld with this issue: were the folks drinking a-holes because they drank, or did they drink because they were a-holes to begin with. I go back and forth on this one, and try to apply it to the cheating situation.
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I have little patience for alcoholics, as the result.
Not just with alcoholics, Z.Actaully, I have a very long fuse, Pep. Too long as a result of the conflict avoidance one learns to stay under an abusive alcoholic's radar. I don't forget offenses easily, though.
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When I read the beginning of this thread, I had to calm myself down, because as a BS, being concerned about my WS's emotional distress over the loss of his lover was never something I had to do, and I don't think I could have handled it. Shawn, how in the world can you be so compassionate about something that involves your W's betrayal of you? You sound like such a great guy! I just hope you are taking care of yourself as well as your W.
I agree with Mel, to have to listen to that crap would be a LB for me. Thankfully, GO didn't put me through that. If he despaired, I only heard his despair about what he did to me. That makes me think that your W has a long way to go.
Can you answer some of the questions posted here? When was NC? Have you monitors in place to ensure NC? Who did you expose to? Have you talked with your W about changing jobs?
I went back and read all of your earlier thread and it seems to me that not alot of progress has been made; I know it's only been three weeks, but most of the above questions can be answered in that timeframe.
I want you and your W to succeed! fulfilling her ENs right now sounds like a lost cause, but continue to invest in time together. Long uncomplicated walks sound great!
IMHO, You have identified what you did to weaken your marriage, but until she is in the frame of mind to do the same, you can't begin recovery. I hope you are there soon!
ME: 45 FBS
FWH: GloveOil 43
D-Day 1/7/09 (A: 10/08-1/09)
DD: 16
DS: 12
Married: 19 years
In love for 24+ years and counting!
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I agree with the above. i am glad to see others characterize it as a LB. In my mind, only an incredibly self absorbed WS would allow the BS to witness grieving like this.
It would be like an alcohlic pining over giving up beating the kids.
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When is it best to start talking about our plan for addressing the cause of the affair and starting counseling? I can identify my lack of showing affection, my self absorption in things other then my wife. She feels our marriage is hopeless right now.
... I'm not sure this would work for everyone, but we actually started MC before NC, never mind the end of the EA (do they ever really end? just wondering . . ). We were addressing the causes of our marriage issues with the counselor - lots of EN talk - when I discovered MB. Once I read HNHN, it made that part a lot easier. When we first started MC, I knew the EA was going on, and was working to stop it. Her fogtalk was that I was the cause of the EA, because I was not fulfilling her ENs. However, as the result of the MC, the counselor made her understand that our problems were the result of BOTH of us not fulfilling each others ENs. With that understanding, her justification for the EA went out the window. Our problems were no longer 'my fault'. His counseling helped her understand that the EA HAD TO STOP before we could recover our marriage. We hit some speed bumps, but we've progressed to recovery stage. Ask your wife if she would consider MC and then hope that you're lucky enough to find a good one. You may have to give the withdrawal a little more time before she'll agree. My WWs withdrawal was awful at first, but she came out of it within a couple of weeks. And NO, I didn't let her sob on my shoulder. She had to 'grieve' on her own time.
Last edited by Linus; 12/21/09 01:19 PM. Reason: typo
Me: BH 60 - Married 21 years
ExW had an EA beginning 09/09 (Facebook)
After a few false recoveries, I filed for D 05/11
D final 03/12
'Be Mindful of Your Many Blessings and Endeavor Daily to be Worthy of Them'
Jay Severin
'Life is a gift and it offers each of us the privilege, the opportunity and the responsibility to give something back by becoming something more'
Tony Robbins
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I didn't expect so many replies over lunch. Thank you all.
Questions
NC was Saturday. She had continued the affair because I never exposed. I exposed on Thursday, she wanted it to end but could not do it. I asked for the 2nd cell phone she had been using to call OM and we would then give the phone to our daughter for Christmas. She wanted to be present during the call, I asked her if she would then talk to him after me. She agreed. I told OM what we were doing with the phone, asked him why it was now over (his very Dutch parents opened his eyes), clarified why it had to be especially the problem of our kids having their family ripped apart. I handed the phone to WW. The volume was up so we could both her the conversation during this. She told him NC anymore, no "I love you, will miss you" were exchanged. They wished each other the best, she proceeded to fall apart.
The biggest problem with her job is she works from 5-3 four nights a week (She sees me and the kids for about 6 hours total o n the weekend). Her mom is going to demand she quit the job. I have another idea on this. She can drop down to 1-2 nights a week (right now she is the manager so she will still need to stay in contact booking bands and organizing events) and I take up a stronger presence there when she is working so we still get to see each other.
I would never be able to ensure NC, most of the affair moved to the afternoons when I am at work. A text message can be erased from a phone, she can use the internet from any of our gaming systems without fear of tracing. All we have are consequences and my vigilance. I exposed to friends and family, people with the ability to put pressure on them to see reality. I did not expose to the coworkers since for all I cannot be certain where their support would lie.
Now to understand me. Seeing her in pain hurts me, even over another man. I love her and would endure anything for her. I can endure this. If our marriage fails I will need therapy, if we pull it together I still may need something. I am trying to monitor my strength in this and right now I am fine. I will not let her suffer alone.
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My H did as you are doing. Totally absorbed in my own grief, unable to give him much thought at all. Just keep spending as much time as possible with her and out of the house is the best way.
I was conforted through the beginning of withdrawl. After the first few days/week I was able to mostly contain my tears to the shower, because I knew it hurt him - does she know it hurts you ie have you told her?
As I look back now, I am incredibly grateful to him for nursing me trhough and being patient - that taking care of me scored billions of brownie points and helped with my determination not to break NC.
Make time for yourself too and when you can't take her grief as well as your own, take yourself away.
The walk thing and holding hands is a great thing to do.
If she wants to recover she may tell her coworkers herself to help with her own accountability. I let everyone know that knew me and OM to keep me on the straight and narrow.
Keep checking yourself
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The biggest problem with her job is she works from 5-3 four nights a week (She sees me and the kids for about 6 hours total o n the weekend). Her mom is going to demand she quit the job. I have another idea on this. She can drop down to 1-2 nights a week (right now she is the manager so she will still need to stay in contact booking bands and organizing events) and I take up a stronger presence there when she is working so we still get to see each other. Shawn, if you going to make it here, she needs to get a new job. Being in the same environment that facilatated her affair will lead to another one. The environment that led to an affair HAS TO BE CHANGED. Period. Working nights like this has not only led to a DETACHMENT from you, but has placed her into an environment where her boundaries are weak. You don't need to be playing around with this. Do this right if you want to recover your marriage. I did not expose to the coworkers since for all I cannot be certain where their support would lie. This is another reason she needs another environment. She is probably around ppl who know about the affair and who would COVER for her. I work in an environment where I would NEVER EVER get away with carrying on an affair. She needs to leave that environment. Nor should you be spending any evenings apart. That is hard on your marriage AS YOU CAN SEE. She should get a daytime job so she can spend her evenings with you. You will have to schedule 15 hours a WEEK together [without children] to create romantic love. Here is the plan to recover your marriage. And if you think you can cut even ONE CORNER on this, I am here to disabuse you of that notion. My middle name is CORNER CUTTER and I have been here almost 9 years so I am here to tell you that people cut corners on this very simple plan deeply REGRETTED it because their marriages did not recover: Requirements for Recovery from an AffairThe plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide. I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail. The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy. This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted. An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them. After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Now to understand me. Seeing her in pain hurts me, even over another man. I love her and would endure anything for her. I can endure this. If our marriage fails I will need therapy, if we pull it together I still may need something. I am trying to monitor my strength in this and right now I am fine. I will not let her suffer alone. Shawn, I want to applaud you for the good job you did in exposing the affair. That is how affairs end. Please keep in mind that if you endure much more abuse from your wife that you are risking harming your marriage by creating RESENTMENT that is going to rear its head around month 10 of recovery. You don't have to watch her withdrawal in order recover. But you do have to PROTECT yourself as best you can from abuse [and this is psychological abuse!] so that you don't have to deal with resentment later on. Many BS' make the mistake of accepting abuse because they are so relieved about saving the marriage. You have to be careful here that you aren't actually causing more harm by setting up years of resentment. There will come a time when the RELIEF will wear off and RAGE will set in. That is a natural phase of recovery; but don't make it WORSE by exposing yourself to unncessary abuse. Protect your boundaries, Shawn.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Please keep in mind that if you endure much more abuse from your wife that you are risking harming your marriage by creating RESENTMENT that is going to rear its head around month 10 of recovery. You don't have to watch her withdrawal in order recover. But you do have to PROTECT yourself as best you can from abuse [and this is psychological abuse!] so that you don't have to deal with resentment later on. QFT. My wife's withdrawal symptoms created erratic behavior that still bothers me months later. Yet bringing it up again is a Love-Buster... so I focus on the present and future, and figure out what she is doing right now that triggers the resentment. If you eliminate the triggers, you eliminate the resentment in time, I understand... There will come a time when the RELIEF will wear off and RAGE will set in. That is a natural phase of recovery; but don't make it WORSE by exposing yourself to unncessary abuse. QFT. Doesn't necessarily follow a ten-month timeline, either. I'm experiencing this over the past few days even though FWW is doing almost everything right. Just seething anger, resentment, and sadness just below the surface even though I thought I was past it. It's important to demonstrate care through this, but don't allow your care to override protecting yourself. MelodyLane tried to tell me this way back when, and I didn't believe her. I thought my Giver would stay in control and I could just be a perfectly supportive husband while FWW pined over OM's photo for hours on end, weeks at a time...
Last edited by Barnboy; 12/21/09 02:38 PM. Reason: Pronouns are a PITA.
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I didn't expect so many replies over lunch. Thank you all.
Questions
NC was Saturday. She had continued the affair because I never exposed. I exposed on Thursday, she wanted it to end but could not do it. I asked for the 2nd cell phone she had been using to call OM and we would then give the phone to our daughter for Christmas. She wanted to be present during the call, I asked her if she would then talk to him after me. She agreed. I told OM what we were doing with the phone, asked him why it was now over (his very Dutch parents opened his eyes), clarified why it had to be especially the problem of our kids having their family ripped apart. I handed the phone to WW. The volume was up so we could both her the conversation during this. She told him NC anymore, no "I love you, will miss you" were exchanged. They wished each other the best, she proceeded to fall apart.
The biggest problem with her job is she works from 5-3 four nights a week (She sees me and the kids for about 6 hours total o n the weekend). Her mom is going to demand she quit the job. I have another idea on this. She can drop down to 1-2 nights a week (right now she is the manager so she will still need to stay in contact booking bands and organizing events) and I take up a stronger presence there when she is working so we still get to see each other.
I would never be able to ensure NC, most of the affair moved to the afternoons when I am at work. A text message can be erased from a phone, she can use the internet from any of our gaming systems without fear of tracing. All we have are consequences and my vigilance. I exposed to friends and family, people with the ability to put pressure on them to see reality. I did not expose to the coworkers since for all I cannot be certain where their support would lie.
Now to understand me. Seeing her in pain hurts me, even over another man. I love her and would endure anything for her. I can endure this. If our marriage fails I will need therapy, if we pull it together I still may need something. I am trying to monitor my strength in this and right now I am fine. I will not let her suffer alone. When is your canonization? You seriously hurt for her seeing her pine over the OM? My wiring is so different. I'd puke.
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Shawn, congrats on the steps you've taken.
BUT you guys have a ways to go yet. I worry whether you're still not seeing things right re: her job.
She used to see him there. That's where they met. She used to be glad -- her eyes would light up -- when he'd walk through that door. I could be wrong, but seems to me that doing the no-contact steps you've done, but allowing her to remain in that environment, with your assent, is like building a nice thick fortress wall around your marriage... and leaving the gate unlocked.
You're correct in your assessment that even extraordinary precautions can't be 100% airtight or foolproof enough to perfectly ensure no contact. But that doesn't mean you should shy away from certain precautions that may be crucial. And this one seems pretty crucial in your situation. If she stays there, then each time the door opens, when a customer comes in, she'll be triggered, secretly thinking maybe it'll be him. And whenever she's there, you'll be wondering where her mind is -- which is not gonna help your relationship with her, not going to help restore your trust in her. Even if she tries her best & does everything right on her part, what if the OM's resolve weakens & he decides to go there & look for her?
She can get another job. While this won't eliminate the possibility of contact, it will reduce the odds. That's what you need to do -- chip away at the odds. Don't reject this advice just because it's not a guaranteed, silver-bullet, hail-Mary cure-all. There IS no cure-all, no one-stroke solution. You need to be taking whatever incremental steps you can to reduce the odds & make things more in favor of your marriage. I know, easy to say, tough to do. Hang tough.
Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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While some people with addictions have withdrawal symptoms they can handle on their own, some have symptoms so serious they need medical assistance. That might be the case here. Ask if she would consider seeing a doctor - maybe an anti-depressant would help.
Me-54 (BH)
WW-52
M 30yrs no kids
Her A started 2006
D-day 3/17/09
WW moved in w OM 9/17/09
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Actaully, I have a very long fuse, Pep. Too long as a result of the conflict avoidance one learns to stay under an abusive alcoholic's radar.
I don't forget offenses easily, though. After reading your post Zelmo I am reminded of the saying "Our character is not developed in the good times, but in times of trial" From what I have read of your posts you have taken the difficult circumstances in your life and allowed them to develop your character. You have not had an easy road and I cringe when I hear you had to endure a backhand from someone who should have been there to protect and nurture you. However what I see from you is rather than letting your experience crush you, it forced you to examine the kind of person you want to be. I also see you really do care and you are persistent in trying to help and comfort those you see hurting. But you don't stop there, you try to offer a way through or encouragement about examining other possibilities. Perhaps I resonate with many of the things your say because I am pretty sure I was married to a BPD or a NPD just like you were. That will leave some scars and it takes time as we try to heal from that experience. I can appreciate where you are coming from. Keep up the good work. Merry Christmas BCBoy
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Thanks, BC. My therapist said sort of the same thing.
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Shawn, what does your wife do? (work wise)
Me 34
WW 30
Abandoned Feb 17th 08, D-Day Aprl 27th 08.
Returned home Jul 7th, OC born 12/30/08
The FOG is clear, and we are in recovery.
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Shawn,
I have been on this site a long time. Longer than just about anyone posting. So permit me to offer you a bit of history.
When I first came here and for a few years after, it was commonly recommended that the BS do what you are doing...listen to your W in her time of pain. With the provisio that you can stand it.
In those days most if not all of the BS's that could do/ did this recovered their marriage. Why? Because as is commonly found here the wS was blaming all of their bad decisions on the BS's lack of sensitivity, lack of empathy, lack of care, and yet here is the BS enduring listening to the WS pine for the OP.
It is a good thing to do because it plants seeds. It is however not a good thing to do for long. A few days, and then you need to set your boundaries. Pep's example of crying in the shower or someplace else makes sense. Her suggestion of long walks when your W is particularly down were recommended then and are good recommendations now.
It seems to me your heart is in the right place, and you intuitively know your W needs help/support now. But, now passes and then you must let her stand on her own and face what she has done or there will not be recovery. Again, this can and should be done with love but clear boundaries.
You are doing well, this stuff is definitely not for wimps. I think you are seeing that now.
God Bless,
JL
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Thank you for your support everyone. We have booked our first session with a counselor next week. I was lucky to find one who has listed His Needs Her Needs as one of his favorite books. It has only been 5 days and though I am floored by how weak my WW's feelings are for me right now and how strong they are for OM I am being patient and watching her for depression. I am looking forward to next week.
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