My first wife, a serial cheater who once woke me from a sound sleep to describe, in detail, the phyiscal prowess of the man she had been with that night, referred to her extended period of cheating as her "restless period".
She also referred to her friends, a group of women that would come over to gossip and who knew of the cheating as her "spiritual group".
Then, she would claim her need to cheat was due to a "lack of connection" with me(tough to connect with an alcoholic who spent an average of 224 nights a year out at bars until post midnight while our two toddlers were home with me). I would have liked to connect, like with a right cross to her jowls.
But, seriously, has anyone noticed that his or her cheating partner refuses to call cheating cheating?

ExH has never admitted he had an A. He's now M'd to OW and they have a new baby. She is 17 yrs. younger.

All I ever got from him was "we are just friends" "She is having problems with her H as well, and we are talking"

Isn't that what counselors/best friends/clergy/ are for?!

Cat

I'm having a little difficulty with assessing my WW's A. Part of me wants to say, "she's weak of character, susceptible and easily duped. If she's been of stronger character, this never would have happened."

But this is the same kind of thinking many people have about alcoholics: The alcoholic could/should stop drinking if only they wanted to. Many sober alkies will tell you they did want to stop, but could not.

No, I don't think cheaters admit -- in those words -- that they are cheating. Just as drunks don't admit they have a problem with alcohol, it's just the denial mechanism of the affliction that allows them to justify -- and continue -- their behavior.

Okay, I'm getting into "armchair psychologist" mode, and I'm certainly not qualified to speak on this topic. I still recall with amazement the several times WW accused me of "not thinking straight." Yeah, right.

Fred, I have always wondered about alcoholism and the volitional component. Could not the same type of thing be said about any abberant behavior, like say beating the hell out of one's kids, that is is a "disease".
Both my dad and grandfather were intellectually gifted men. Yet, they drank so much that they were abusive to their families.
Is the "disease" label the result of a strong lobbying group that was able to get the AMA and lawmakers to classify this activity as a bonafide disease? If, say , pedophiles had the same type of clout, would they be able to have their behaviors classified as stemming from a bonafide disease, thus entitleing them to insurance payment for treatment and sick pay etc.?

Zelmo, I don't know if I want to get into a long discussion about this. I have my own feelings/opinion on it. I do know that there is both a physical as well as mental aspect to alcoholism. I learned a long time ago that to ask "why?" is an effort to control things. Why am I alcoholic and my sister is not? Sometimes the only answer I am going to get is, "Because."

Alcoholism as a disease wasn't even considered until the 1950s. The AMA and the APA have listed it as such because there is a pathology -- and a treatment. I'm reminded that not only do people die from alcoholism, but also from withdrawal from alcohol. This differentiates it from drug addiction, since people die from heroin overdoses, but not from withdrawal! It is not for nothing that a federal agency exists that is named "Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms." These are known life-threatening substances.

The medical field is not without its politics. The APA used to categorize homosexuality as a mental disorder. That diagnosis no longer exists in the DSM-IV, and many to this day claim that politics played a part in its removal.

But back to the topic of this thread: If I call a dog a cat, it does not make it a cat. It just identifies me as having a distorted reality. And it doesn't really matter if the APA or AMA "recognizes" that or not. What matters is how others see it.

I wrote about the man who told of having an affair in a meeting and my discussion with him afterward. I appreciated his telling me of his thoughts and feelings, but from this point on, I really don't want to have any association with him. I do not deny him his right to attend A.A. meetings, but I do not have to go have coffee with him afterwards. And I won't.

Yeah, Fred, it is an issue that has always baffled me. My perspective is different , as my mom and siblings were hurt so badly. I see "alcoholism" as a choice.
Interestingly( at least to me) when my dad stopped drinking, and I openly discussed his "disease" outside the family, I was chastised mercilessly.
It was very tough to reconcile someone telling me that he had a disease, with his getting angry about merely disclosing that fact. If it is a diseaes, why would there ever be any anger about disclosing it? Sort of the old cake and eat it too deal with my dad.

From Townsend and Cloud:
Buy the book here: It's Not My Fault




Mark

I couldn't agree more. The first thing I ever heard my sponsor say (and the primary reason I asked him to be my sponsor) was, "Alcoholics Anonymous is a program of personal responsibility."

Which is why I find it all the more amazing -- and almost amusing -- that my WW has embarked on her current path. She was all about personal responsibility, doing the "next right thing," setting healthy boundaries, and being "rigorously honest."

It appears it was all lip service when push came to shove. But that's what sociopaths do.

Interpersonal traits

• Glib and superficial
• Egocentric and grandiose
• Lack of remorse or guilt
• Lack of empathy
• Deceitful and manipulative
• Shallow emotions

Antisocial lifestyle

• Impulsive
• Poor behavior controls
• Need for excitement
• Lack of responsibility
• Early behavior problems
• Adult antisocial behavior
• The complete picture

In my view, "cheating" is a euphemism for "adultery". I always use the terms "adultery" or "infidelity" on the rare occasion I speak to my H about what he did.

Well,how about calling it his "restless period". like my XWW. Isn't that sweet. She was "restless". Ahhhhhhhh, poor baby.

I'll check it out. I read their book on boundaries and it was pretty good.

nauseating euphemisms for cheating/adultery:

inappropriate friendship
mistake (one of my favorites - kind of like a typo)
mid-life crisis
crisis of faith (ya think??)
illness (yeah, I'm bipolar, but my A was a choice, not a cop out - from any direction)
indiscretion (what is this, Knots Landing??)
reaction to loneliness (boo hoo)
act of desperation (please, drama much?)

I'm sure there are more, but I need to go gag now

Hon, they can (and will) dress it up on a doily and silver platter and try to make you belive it's the finest chocolate in the world.

But still, at the end of the day it's still bullsh!t.

The truly amazing thing , to me, about folks who can use these types of phrases, is not just the absurdity of the phrases. But, seriously, what type of person can let this stuff escape his/her mouth, without incredible embarrassment. I think I would choke. I could never pull it off.
My XWW just loved amorphous, new age phrases or words like "connection". She needed "connection" in our marriage. Yet, if I inquired what, speciifically, she would like me to do, she could not identify it.
And, the really amazing thing to me is that she could be physically intimate with strangers, yet claim that she needed some type of "connection" to be comfortable having sex in our marriage.
Well, guess what? Most people do need intimacy. Try putting a little effort into it , yourself, XWW.

>of person can let this stuff escape his/her mouth, without incredible embarrassment

Ya got me. Don't you just want to parrot back, "stupid is as stupid does?" I do.

>She needed "connection" in our marriage

What? You didn't have enough outlets in the house? That's what a power strip is for, Zel.

Zarking waynerds.... ugh.

When you allow your whole life to become about lyng so you can have what you think you want, it is amazing the crapppy drivel that can excape your mouth. It's less guilt indicing to say "lonely" than selfish. It's less telling about one's own character to say MLC than pride-induced-screwing. Your last line is one of the things waywards are so afraid of - effort? Who me? I am the princess! It should be handed to me on a silver platter!! Blech.

Not sure why I'm posting this. I doubt if it will help anyone, but I guess you never know. At any rate, it's a interesting departure from the rigors of my plan A and obsessing about my future...

Thanks for opening the discussion. Background: I�m in a plan A with WW. After exposure of that, (and finding MB), I was �encouraged� to �come clean with my WW about my own past affais or else healing/recovery could never really begin (she didn�t know about any of it).

When I told WW, on 11/11, I believe I used the words �unfaithful� �cheated� �had an affair,� �emotional affair,� �physical affair.�

Basically I was a lying POS who was afraid to own up to my problem � my wife wasn�t meeting my EN (SF) but I didn�t know how to address it. It was easier (I thought) to give up trying to pursue my own needs within the marriage and simply seek my fulfillment elsewhere. This was how I justified it in my own mind. Fortunately, nobody ever knew about my activities [there�s one for you], so I never had to make up words to describe it.

Well, lets see, from my perspective when I was having my physical (sexual) affair, I most certainly tried to avoid talking about it and was kind of lucky b/c my mistress miraculously decided she didn�t want to be an �adulterous� anymore (her exact words). That ended that.

For the next 8 years, SF was met on a more regular basis, AND I had decided that I wasn�t cut out for infidelity (too much sneaking around required and lies of omission). The whole time I was actively pursuing affairs, I was hyped up and real nervous my wife would find evidence. It was not for me. I remember a girl I was interested in said she had another married man-friend who �dated.� [there�s another one for you]

When I confessed all to a priest, I used the words �unfaithful to my wife� When I told her Father, I said �My hands aren�t clean either.� I believe I told my parents �I�ve had some problems of my own with fidelity in the past�.8 yrs ago I had an affair of my own� [you get real creative, see�]

When I told my son, I just said �I�ve made mistakes in the past and hurt your mother very much� � soon, I�ll elaborate, he will know the truth and how damaging adultery is.

My ww has yet to describe her affair as anything besides �an inappropriate emotional relationship� which she choked out one time over the course of about 90 seconds in a therapy session.

Thing is gentlemen: Unless you�ve come to terms with adultery and looked at it for what it is LIKE WE DO HERE, it�s just another pass-time in the outside world. Some engage in it, others don�t. Some talk about it, some don�t. People make up all kinds of names for it because they know its wrong but if you can call it something that doesn�t sound so wrong, it somehow isn�t so wrong. Adultery is glamourized in popular culture � a lot of the euphemisms come from there, I would expect.

How many phrases do teen-agers have for having sex? (is that for a similar reason?) I suppose there are plenty of other reasons to make up names for adultery; for me, before MB, it was to make it seem less BAD, because I (like most) didn�t want to portray myself as a BAD person (or even have to think of myself as a bad person).

When H and I first went to MC after Dday (the phony "act" he was putting on at the time), he got upset when I brought up his "affair".....he actually said, quite disgustingly, "She needs to stop calling it an 'affair'. She makes it seem like its some dirty, seedy, back alley motel thing...."

AWWWWW...poor thing....

During the Affair, he REFUSED to call it an affair, instead he called it a "fantasy"..."It wasn't real"....."a connection".....

maybe they lose part of the dictionary in the fog????....

You just reminded me that once in 'therapy' (yeah, right...) we had a similar exchange: "would you stop calling it an affair?!"
My reply: "okay, how about adultery?"

At an MB weekend during lunch, my FWH referred to his cheating as "my misbehavior." I stuck to Plan A and did not react negatively, but the thought of his euphemism still stings.