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Man, I need to have my head examined, but I couldn't let it pass when he made an equation between my XH's 10 year affair [we are divorced and he is still with the OW] and his wife's emails with an old lover. Mel, please show me the post where I equated your XH's affair to my W's emails with her old lover. You came up with that out of thin air because I did not do it. I would laugh off your situation if I were in your shoes. If its an A, its the WEAKEST A i've ever heard of...DUDE
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Man, I need to have my head examined, but I couldn't let it pass when he made an equation between my XH's 10 year affair [we are divorced and he is still with the OW] and his wife's emails with an old lover. Mel, please show me the post where I equated your XH's affair to my W's emails with her old lover. You came up with that out of thin air because I did not do it. otter, you know better than me how you feel and I would agree that there is no equation between my XH's affair and your wife's email exchanges with her old lover. Thanks for clearing that up.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Every response (so far) that claims a continued desire to inflict some level of cosmic revenge on the OTHER PERSON has come from those who did not recover their marriage. It's not an accident. If a marriage is to survive infidelity, a measure of GRACE must be allowed to enter the BS heart. Once the betrayed spouse has assumed that GRACE, it becomes more difficult to work up a frenzy of flames and piss for the OP. The growth in spirit that must come if there is to be a reconciliation has a profound effect on both spouses. WS and BS alike. In absence of that event, continued burning/torture/shaming of the OP in effigy is possible.
In other words, you are correct. Bulls eye. But that is not to say that during Plan A and even Plan B this GRACE was not sincerely offered and summarily declined.
Testosterone boys! Testosterone! It ain’t just for nose, ear and back hair anymore!
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I would stop and help my H, however i am afraid i would probably leave the OW where she was and tell her to use her feminine wiles to get out of this one too.
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I would laugh off your situation if I were in your shoes. If its an A, its the WEAKEST A i've ever heard of...DUDE Laughing at someone else's pain is not a nice thing....... Just because anyone else does not consider Mrs. ottert's betrayal an A does not mean ottert does not and that his "hurt" is any less than the rest of us betrayed spouses.....
Last edited by Still_Crazy; 12/30/09 12:49 PM.
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Every response (so far) that claims a continued desire to inflict some level of cosmic revenge on the OTHER PERSON has come from those who did not recover their marriage. It's not an accident. If a marriage is to survive infidelity, a measure of GRACE must be allowed to enter the BS heart. Once the betrayed spouse has assumed that GRACE, it becomes more difficult to work up a frenzy of flames and piss for the OP. The growth in spirit that must come if there is to be a reconciliation has a profound effect on both spouses. WS and BS alike. In absence of that event, continued burning/torture/shaming of the OP in effigy is possible. When the WS sees your grace as a weakness and tries to use it to destroy you, you'll think a little different. Grace is only to be offered to the penetant, the unrepentant can suck fire.
I watch, and am as a sparrow alone upon the house top.
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Say for example it was freezing out and you came across a stranded vehicle , way out in the country. You stop and out pops either the affair partner or the unremorseful XWS. It's clear that without assistance, he or she may die or get frostbite or something.
So, do you drive off, after making sure he or she sees you , maybe cracking off some pithy riposte like "See you later, Blimpey pie". If I were to find myself in that situation, I would do the right thing. I wouldn't put any more thought into it than that. I always try to live my life doing the right thing and then when I go to bed at night, I can alway look myself in the mirror and like what I see. I've not gone too far wrong in my life living like that. Oh, and before you ask. Of course doing the right thing would involve taking the person to safety. I can't imagine I'd be up to pleasant chit-chat though. Ottert - you need to move on. Build your M. Focus on regaining happiness in your life. This resentment about a past slight will do you no good and will hinder your recovery. I know of what I speak. I am a recovering/almost recovered BS. I have moved on from my hurt. It is in the past, I am enjoying our today and building on that so that we have many fantastic tomorrows. Let it go.
Me - BW
FWH - BB -(PA Jul 08 - Aug 08)
D-Day - 8 Aug 2008
Recovering nicely
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Every response (so far) that claims a continued desire to inflict some level of cosmic revenge on the OTHER PERSON has come from those who did not recover their marriage. It's not an accident. If a marriage is to survive infidelity, a measure of GRACE must be allowed to enter the BS heart. Once the betrayed spouse has assumed that GRACE, it becomes more difficult to work up a frenzy of flames and piss for the OP. The growth in spirit that must come if there is to be a reconciliation has a profound effect on both spouses. WS and BS alike. In absence of that event, continued burning/torture/shaming of the OP in effigy is possible. When the WS sees your grace as a weakness and tries to use it to destroy you, you'll think a little different. Grace is only to be offered to the penetant, the unrepentant can suck fire. I was speaking to the GRACE that enters the BS's heart as a requirement for marriage reconciliation. The GRACE that is bestowed upon the BS by God. Once that GRACE is there, it becomes harder and harder to work up any revenge fantasies. When one of us in in a STATE OF GRACE we are different than we were before. I am not discussing/suggesting anyone offers anything towards anyone who remains evil/unrepentant. I don't think you understand my point.
I do understand what you are saying. We are discussing two different things.
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otter, what are you doing? Just so the other posters know, otter and his wife are counseling with Dr Harley and Kim <?> and they have told him to stop demanding an apology from his wife. [otter wants Dr Harley to force her to apologize I guess] Otter is not happy with the advice he is getting so he is now trying to recruit posters here to come out against Dr Harley.
Otter, what is the point of taking this argument here? Yes, Mel. But, you must admit that it is truly an astoundingly different philosophy, not requiring a WS to apologize. If the woman described in the article. Joy, really cheated and Dr Harley does not think she needs to apologize, that is incredible to me.
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If so, I would like to see your evidence. I'm not going to make the need for an apology as a prerequisite for recovery my "hill to die on." I never meant that. But the evidence that recovery without a remorseful WS is difficult if not impossible is all over this board on a daily basis. It permeates and dominates this forum. Don't hold your breath. I cannot imagine a recovered marriage where the WS never apologized. That would be unbelievable. And, Mel, aren't you remarried? Do you still consider your WXH to be in an affair. He's single, right? I'm not sure how his continued relationship would cause you further discomfort. I can understand how his failure to acknowledge his betrayal and apologize would bug you. I'd like to hear from any BSs whose marriages are recovered but whose spouse was NEVER remorseful and never owned their betrayal.
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Yes, Mel. But, you must admit that it is truly an astoundingly different philosophy, not requiring a WS to apologize. If the woman described in the article. Joy, really cheated and Dr Harley does not think she needs to apologize, that is incredible to me. Zelmo, did you read the REST of what Dr. Harley said in SAA that Mel posted that Ottert left out? See below... Mrs. W A betrayed spouse usually expects their wayward spouse to express guilt and remorse over the pain inflicted by the thoughtlessness of an affair, and Jon was no exception. He felt that an apology was necessary before he would be willing to reconcile. But I was able to talk him out of this condition, because I knew that at the beginning of recovery, remorse is rarely expressed. I suggested the he avoid the subject of regret unless Sue chose to express it. Instead I wanted him to focus on what they both needed to do to meet each others emotional needs and become more thoughtful of each others feelings. <snip> to the bottom of page 84 If the feeling of remorse is not actually felt by a spouse, I don't recommend a reluctant apology. I don't see any sense in mouthing words that don't reflect true feelings. Insincere words won't help marital recovery. Its the new lifestyle that the couple creates that will save their marriage.
Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and future. They should not dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding the marriage.
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Also, anyone contemplate putting something in their will banning the XWS from attendance at one's funeral, where they can feign grief? This is the more interesting part of your original post Z. You'll be dead, why should you care?
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So, you're saying that secretly emailing an old lover for four days and telling them that you still think of them is "nothing inappropriate said whatsoever"?
You want to prove me wrong so badly, Mel, that you are saying foolish things.
My wife, on her thread before it was lost, told a poster (Zelmo, I believe) that she was beginning to see that her comments and tone in her emails could have come across as "romantic." She also said the three days of emails before she apologized to her ex-lover were "unnecessary and inappropriate." Of course, she has never told ME this. Excellent point. Mel needs to get her facts straight. This was clearly betrayal.
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Every response (so far) that claims a continued desire to inflict some level of cosmic revenge on the OTHER PERSON has come from those who did not recover their marriage. It's not an accident. If a marriage is to survive infidelity, a measure of GRACE must be allowed to enter the BS heart. Once the betrayed spouse has assumed that GRACE, it becomes more difficult to work up a frenzy of flames and piss for the OP. The growth in spirit that must come if there is to be a reconciliation has a profound effect on both spouses. WS and BS alike. In absence of that event, continued burning/torture/shaming of the OP in effigy is possible. When the WS sees your grace as a weakness and tries to use it to destroy you, you'll think a little different. Grace is only to be offered to the penetant, the unrepentant can suck fire. I can relate. I offered the chance to come clean and get counseling. I was ridiculed. The BSs that are claiming acceptance of this grace seem to have had an entirely different breed of WS.
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Excellent point. Mel needs to get her facts straight. This was clearly betrayal. [/quote] Of course it was a "betrayal," no one has denied that. But it was not an affair. The content of the emails was not romantic, I read them too. Saying they "could have come across as romantic" is a huge stretch.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Sorry, otter, but those emails were in no way romantic and you know it. It was her contact with an old lover that was inappropriate, not the content of her communication. It can't even be called an affair.
I am not trying to minimize your hurt from this betrayal but lets not get ridiculous here about the true nature of her betrayal. Sure, it would have likely LED TO an affair, but there is a huge difference between an affair and "could lead to." Oh, pleeeeze. Quoting from the Fogelberg song etc is not an overture. Yeah, I often send the lyrics to romantic songs to my golf buddies.
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Also, anyone contemplate putting something in their will banning the XWS from attendance at one's funeral, where they can feign grief? This is the more interesting part of your original post Z. You'll be dead, why should you care? I would have to say that if my H were to have stayed with the OW i would not have wanted him at my funeral either, but if my kids wanted him there i suppose i would be okay with it, but i really would not want him there.
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I would laugh off your situation if I were in your shoes. If its an A, its the WEAKEST A i've ever heard of...DUDE Laughing at someone else's pain is not a nice thing....... Just because anyone else does not consider Mrs. ottert's betrayal an A does not mean ottert does not and that his "hurt" is any less than the rest of us betrayed spouses..... Please re-read my post. IF I WERE IN YOUR SHOES, which I'm clearly not so I don't laugh since it his him that views it differently than I. DUDE
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[
Yes, Mel. But, you must admit that it is truly an astoundingly different philosophy, not requiring a WS to apologize. If the woman described in the article. Joy, really cheated and Dr Harley does not think she needs to apologize, that is incredible to me. So you are saying you disagree with Dr Harley that an insincere has no value and no worth? I would really like to hear how you feel an insincere, unfelt "apology" has any meaning? As a BS, I will tell you that an insincere apology means nothing to me and I fail to see how it would effect recovery in any way whatsoever. In fact, after my H's affair he did apologize. But I could tell it wasn't sincere. He was only sorry he got kicked out and nothing more. It didn't help our recovery, if anything it hindered it by insulting my intelligence with his insincerity.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yes, Mel. But, you must admit that it is truly an astoundingly different philosophy, not requiring a WS to apologize. If the woman described in the article. Joy, really cheated and Dr Harley does not think she needs to apologize, that is incredible to me. Zelmo, did you read the REST of what Dr. Harley said in SAA that Mel posted that Ottert left out? See below... Mrs. W A betrayed spouse usually expects their wayward spouse to express guilt and remorse over the pain inflicted by the thoughtlessness of an affair, and Jon was no exception. He felt that an apology was necessary before he would be willing to reconcile. But I was able to talk him out of this condition, because I knew that at the beginning of recovery, remorse is rarely expressed. I suggested the he avoid the subject of regret unless Sue chose to express it. Instead I wanted him to focus on what they both needed to do to meet each others emotional needs and become more thoughtful of each others feelings. <snip> to the bottom of page 84 If the feeling of remorse is not actually felt by a spouse, I don't recommend a reluctant apology. I don't see any sense in mouthing words that don't reflect true feelings. Insincere words won't help marital recovery. Its the new lifestyle that the couple creates that will save their marriage.
Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and future. They should not dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding the marriage. Yeah, that may make it a little more understandable. But, really, who in their right mind cheats and does not apologize. That is truly a bizarre concept.
Last edited by Zelmo; 12/30/09 01:32 PM.
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