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Sorry, otter, but those emails were in no way romantic and you know it. It was her contact with an old lover that was inappropriate, not the content of her communication. It can't even be called an affair.
I am not trying to minimize your hurt from this betrayal but lets not get ridiculous here about the true nature of her betrayal. Sure, it would have likely LED TO an affair, but there is a huge difference between an affair and "could lead to." Oh, pleeeeze. Quoting from the Fogelberg song etc is not an overture. Yeah, I often send the lyrics to romantic songs to my golf buddies. Like I said, there is a world of difference between an affair and "could lead to."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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No, I think both no apology and an insincere one are worthless. A good book on forgiveness, by Janis Abram Spring, "How Can I Forgive You" explains that a prerequisite for forgivenss is acknowledgement and remorse by the offender. I agree with her on this.
No apology would meant, to me, that the WS does not acknowledge the wrongdoing.
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Yeah, that may make it a little more understandable. But, really, who in their right mind cheats and does not apologize. That is truly a bizarre concept. My WXH. Then again I can't really say he didn't apologize, but it was for getting caught, not for cheating.
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Yeah, that may make it a little more understandable. But, really, who in their right mind cheats and does not apologize. That is truly a bizarre concept. Let me tell you who: THE VAST MAJORITY OF WAYWARD SPOUSES. Most feel very little remorse at all before they get into recovery. Just as a falling down drunk feels no remorse for running down the pedestrian until after he is sobered up and in recovery. The ones that apologize early on are the exceptions, not the rule. "A betrayed spouse usually expects their wayward spouse to express guilt and remorse over the pain inflicted by the thoughtlessness of an affair, and Jon was no exception. He felt that an apology was necessary before he would be willing to reconcile. But I was able to talk him out of this condition, because I knew that at the beginning of recovery, remorse is rarely expressed".
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Every response (so far) that claims a continued desire to inflict some level of cosmic revenge on the OTHER PERSON has come from those who did not recover their marriage. It's not an accident. If a marriage is to survive infidelity, a measure of GRACE must be allowed to enter the BS heart. Once the betrayed spouse has assumed that GRACE, it becomes more difficult to work up a frenzy of flames and piss for the OP. The growth in spirit that must come if there is to be a reconciliation has a profound effect on both spouses. WS and BS alike. In absence of that event, continued burning/torture/shaming of the OP in effigy is possible. When the WS sees your grace as a weakness and tries to use it to destroy you, you'll think a little different. Grace is only to be offered to the penetant, the unrepentant can suck fire. I can relate. I offered the chance to come clean and get counseling. I was ridiculed. The BSs that are claiming acceptance of this grace seem to have had an entirely different breed of WS.
Do you have an alternate explanation of why the only responders to your query who admit to having revenge fantasies are those who do not have a recovered marriage? (Including Mel, where her previous unrecovered marriage is concerned)
It's really an observation, and my attempt to make sense of my observation.
Please note: I am NOT suggesting offering GRACE toward a lousy crappy wayward spouse. Try not to go down that path, I am asking an entirely different question.
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But, really, who in their right mind cheats and does not apologize. That is truly a bizarre concept. My STBXW, for one...
Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
St. Francis of Assissi
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Sorry, otter, but those emails were in no way romantic and you know it. It was her contact with an old lover that was inappropriate, not the content of her communication. It can't even be called an affair.
I am not trying to minimize your hurt from this betrayal but lets not get ridiculous here about the true nature of her betrayal. Sure, it would have likely LED TO an affair, but there is a huge difference between an affair and "could lead to." Oh, pleeeeze. Quoting from the Fogelberg song etc is not an overture. Yeah, I often send the lyrics to romantic songs to my golf buddies. Like I said, there is a world of difference between an affair and "could lead to." Those two had a load of back and forth over 4 days. So, where does an emotional affair begin? Is there some arbitrary, universally accepted standard? What if some said , you need 10 years and a day to constitute an affair, Mel? I would consider it a betrayal of trust, infidelity in other words, to secretly conduct an e-mail exchange with an old lover, never mind continuing to e-mail after the guy was clearly sending out feelers.
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But, really, who in their right mind cheats and does not apologize. That is truly a bizarre concept. My STBXW, for one... I said "right " mind. Well, maybe that is as "right" as hers gets, Fred.
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I would consider it a betrayal of trust, infidelity in other words, to secretly conduct an e-mail exchange with an old lover, never mind continuing to e-mail after the guy was clearly sending out feelers. I agree with most of this. It could be defined as "infidelity" in the strictest sense of the word if you define infidelity as "disloyalty." I don't disagree it was a betrayal.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Every response (so far) that claims a continued desire to inflict some level of cosmic revenge on the OTHER PERSON has come from those who did not recover their marriage. It's not an accident. If a marriage is to survive infidelity, a measure of GRACE must be allowed to enter the BS heart. Once the betrayed spouse has assumed that GRACE, it becomes more difficult to work up a frenzy of flames and piss for the OP. The growth in spirit that must come if there is to be a reconciliation has a profound effect on both spouses. WS and BS alike. In absence of that event, continued burning/torture/shaming of the OP in effigy is possible. When the WS sees your grace as a weakness and tries to use it to destroy you, you'll think a little different. Grace is only to be offered to the penetant, the unrepentant can suck fire. I can relate. I offered the chance to come clean and get counseling. I was ridiculed. The BSs that are claiming acceptance of this grace seem to have had an entirely different breed of WS.
Do you have an alternate explanation of why the only responders to your query who admit to having revenge fantasies are those who do not have a recovered marriage? (Including Mel, where her previous unrecovered marriage is concerned)
It's really an observation, and my attempt to make sense of my observation.
Please note: I am NOT suggesting offering GRACE toward a lousy crappy wayward spouse. Try not to go down that path, I am asking an entirely different question.Yeah, I think their WSs have done the hard work and they have forgiven them. Those whose spouses bolted and never acknowledge the damage. have pissed off their BSs and done nothing to make amends. They have often left them in a lurch, financially and in a bad place emotionally, with nerya second thought. That tends to piss folks off. And, I beieve that a great many of us BSs whose WS never turned it around, wold have given the healing a try, given the chance.
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But, really, who in their right mind cheats and does not apologize. That is truly a bizarre concept. My STBXW, for one... I said "right " mind. Well, maybe that is as "right" as hers gets, Fred. A "wayward" mind is not right by definition. Their mind is wayward. And is wayward for some weeks or months into recovery.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yes, Mel. But, you must admit that it is truly an astoundingly different philosophy, not requiring a WS to apologize. If the woman described in the article. Joy, really cheated and Dr Harley does not think she needs to apologize, that is incredible to me. Zelmo, did you read the REST of what Dr. Harley said in SAA that Mel posted that Ottert left out? See below... Mrs. W A betrayed spouse usually expects their wayward spouse to express guilt and remorse over the pain inflicted by the thoughtlessness of an affair, and Jon was no exception. He felt that an apology was necessary before he would be willing to reconcile. But I was able to talk him out of this condition, because I knew that at the beginning of recovery, remorse is rarely expressed. I suggested the he avoid the subject of regret unless Sue chose to express it. Instead I wanted him to focus on what they both needed to do to meet each others emotional needs and become more thoughtful of each others feelings. <snip> to the bottom of page 84 If the feeling of remorse is not actually felt by a spouse, I don't recommend a reluctant apology. I don't see any sense in mouthing words that don't reflect true feelings. Insincere words won't help marital recovery. Its the new lifestyle that the couple creates that will save their marriage.
Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and future. They should not dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding the marriage. Yeah, that may make it a little more understandable. But, really, who in their right mind cheats and does not apologize. That is truly a bizarre concept. Well, someone NOT in their right mind of course...An ENTITLED, SELFISH, RATIONALIZING, JUSTIFYING, NOT-IN-LOVE- WITH-THEIR-SPOUSE WS, that's who...Now, once their brain chemicals return to normal after withdrawal and the MB program is worked and they are again in love with their BS, that changes the whole scenario...and THAT is when genuine remorse sets in and is expressed...THAT is when grace and mercy from the BS brings them to their knees - being in love with someone that is offering undeserved grace and mercy brings about more remorse than I have words to describe... Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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But, really, who in their right mind cheats and does not apologize. That is truly a bizarre concept. My STBXW, for one... I said "right " mind. Well, maybe that is as "right" as hers gets, Fred. A "wayward" mind is not right by definition. Their mind is wayward. And is wayward for some weeks or months into recovery. ...or for years, in the cases of those screwballs who never come clean.
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Well, someone NOT in their right mind of course...An ENTITLED, SELFISH, RATIONALIZING, JUSTIFYING, NOT-IN-LOVE- WITH-THEIR-SPOUSE WS, that's who...Now, once their brain chemicals return to normal after withdrawal and the MB program is worked and they are again in love with their BS, that changes the whole scenario...and THAT is when genuine remorse sets in and is expressed...THAT is when grace and mercy from the BS brings them to their knees - being in love with someone that is offering undeserved grace and mercy brings about more remorse than I have words to describe...
Mrs. W My H, who gave me the phony baloney "apology" to get back into the house broke down in tears 2 years later in a REAL apology. As a recovering alcoholic, I can tell you I felt no remorse for 2-3 years into recovery for my crimes. Fellow AA's who showed remorse were blathering idiots, IMO. I had no remorse, I was just there because I didn't want to lose anything. I was scared.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yes, Mel. But, you must admit that it is truly an astoundingly different philosophy, not requiring a WS to apologize. If the woman described in the article. Joy, really cheated and Dr Harley does not think she needs to apologize, that is incredible to me. Zelmo, did you read the REST of what Dr. Harley said in SAA that Mel posted that Ottert left out? See below... Mrs. W A betrayed spouse usually expects their wayward spouse to express guilt and remorse over the pain inflicted by the thoughtlessness of an affair, and Jon was no exception. He felt that an apology was necessary before he would be willing to reconcile. But I was able to talk him out of this condition, because I knew that at the beginning of recovery, remorse is rarely expressed. I suggested the he avoid the subject of regret unless Sue chose to express it. Instead I wanted him to focus on what they both needed to do to meet each others emotional needs and become more thoughtful of each others feelings. <snip> to the bottom of page 84 If the feeling of remorse is not actually felt by a spouse, I don't recommend a reluctant apology. I don't see any sense in mouthing words that don't reflect true feelings. Insincere words won't help marital recovery. Its the new lifestyle that the couple creates that will save their marriage.
Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and future. They should not dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding the marriage. Yeah, that may make it a little more understandable. But, really, who in their right mind cheats and does not apologize. That is truly a bizarre concept. Well, someone NOT in their right mind of course...An ENTITLED, SELFISH, RATIONALIZING, JUSTIFYING, NOT-IN-LOVE- WITH-THEIR-SPOUSE WS, that's who...Now, once their brain chemicals return to normal after withdrawal and the MB program is worked and they are again in love with their BS, that changes the whole scenario...and THAT is when genuine remorse sets in and is expressed...THAT is when grace and mercy from the BS brings them to their knees - being in love with someone that is offering undeserved grace and mercy brings about more remorse than I have words to describe... Mrs. W I agree ,if you are dealing with a normal, non-disordered spouse. 4 years out, my XW has ben arrested in front of the kids, had her power turned off twice, has no driver's license as it was revoked, and is acting nuts. I know, says something about my picker. I acknowledge that.
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Its a judgement call as to when something becomes inappropriate. That is the problem on here. There is nothing left to judgement or common sense. Its all absolute. Black and white. Same as the BW whose husband runs off and out of the country and it takes her five years to get a divorce. She can't date or have sex for FIVE YEARS? How stupid is that? We've been over this subject a thousand times...DUDE
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Its a judgement call as to when something becomes inappropriate. That is the problem on here. There is nothing left to judgement or common sense. Its all absolute. Black and white. Same as the BW whose husband runs off and out of the country and it takes her five years to get a divorce. She can't date or have sex for FIVE YEARS? How stupid is that? We've been over this subject a thousand times...DUDE Is that your judgement?? 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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 I'm sorry, Dude, but you sooo walked off that cliff!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I'm sorry, Dude, but you sooo walked off that cliff! Stop cracking yourself up, Mel.
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Yeah, I think their WSs have done the hard work and they have forgiven them. Those whose spouses bolted and never acknowledge the damage. have pissed off their BSs and done nothing to make amends. They have often left them in a lurch, financially and in a bad place emotionally, with nerya second thought. That tends to piss folks off.
Yes. Pissed off indeed. But worse than that I think. 
Your thoughtless heartless WW will not make amends.
Where and when do you decide you will begin to renew yourself? Love again? Risk again? if ever ....
Apparently, you are making plans to keep your focus on what WW does ... into your grave. 
And, I beieve that a great many of us BSs whose WS never turned it around, wold have given the healing a try, given the chance.
Tragic.
Last edited by Pepperband; 12/30/09 02:10 PM.
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