Jayne, I am preparing. I don't think that it is likely that I would follow, like drag the kids somewhere separated, but I am trying to keep an open mind and get the information. And no, the separation wouldn't just be geography, and coming back home weekends together. I can see how that wasn't so clear. I get confused and have to clarify for myself sometimes.

Me, too. I was afraid for a long time that it would be overwhelming the way it was when the kids were little and it was just me and them for extended periods in the past. But we're really thriving now both when he's here and when he's away. That give me a pang of guilt, too, though, because if I was stronger then and did this when they were little, the transition may have been easier. Our home was rented out because of all the moving we were doing and the girls and I shared an apartment with a friend while H was away, and sharing the responsibilities for the combined kids with her made it much much easier. I've heard Stella suggest this solution, and it was a great one. But if I carried through then, we wouldn't have had all this time and growth and experiences together, either.

And I think you're right, that the new locations thing may lose its appeal. And that was there with FOO, too, constantly moving. it resolves a lot of conflicts with friends and family who aren't friends of the marriage.

And there was a trigger there, last night. He had changed his mind about sharing those frequent flyer miles, and I hadn't thought to ask him that. I just assumed the offer was still open. It totally makes sense if someone's working, they would feel very free giving away things they earned, and then would feel like holding on to what they have when that circumstance changes. And he reminded me this morning that my stepfather made a joke at H's expense over the phone to my mom last year, and we heard my mom's deflect it with a little sarcasm, instead of saying something like "I don't like when you make jokes at his expense like that."

My mom did ask last month if it was still an open offer, and that would have been a great signal to me to check in with H first. I still have some IB left there, assuming instead of asking, and I can see how that would be a trigger. We spoke this morning, and he is in no way enthusiastic, but he is "okay with it. He made a promise, and he's carrying through." I don't think we were going to be able to get to POJA in the bad leftover feelings this morning, so I'll try again this weekend. I hope there are still flights left.

Oh and jayne, no he wasn't drinking last night, and that may or may not make it more difficult. He made a point to tell me he wasn't drinking most nights when he was out of town this last time, too, because he was working so late. I am doing a lot lot better at not counting and not asking and even not wondering, but the damage had been done there already where I used to take it very personally.

I sent him an email about I do not want to gain at his expense over this and offering to let my stepfather know I don't like what he says to my family members about H. I had a fear about doing that while DH was away but now that he's back I wouldn't feel as much at a safety risk. I called H and asked him to read the email, and he said, no, no, he's not happy about my family ticket or no ticket but he has no problem about me getting my mom the ticket.

H told me this week that his two brothers don't know why he's still with me and that I don't deserve him. His brother called while H was in the shower getting ready to go out with them, and we spent a few minutes catching up. Would it have been inappropriate to say, and oh by the way, I didn't understand what you meant about not knowing why your brother is still with me. Would you please clarify that for me? Because I've been nothing but kind to all of you. I didn't, but I almost did.

That really sucks Ears. Wonder if his brothers have some sort of animosity towards you for something they perceive you did, or do you think your H has been telling them stuff not necessarily true?

Better to hold your tongue though, I do agree.

H told me that his mom told him that he doesn't deserve me! And he said that pissed him off because I was turning his family against him.

So you can't win either way.

OH, I don't know if it's stuff that I did. The only incident the brother had his W talk to me about was one time when DD8 was a baby that I made an excuse to leave his home with the kids early on Easter when there was a situation, not about my family, that they felt confident they already had under control. So it may be more about what H says. Maybe I should've clarified with the brother after all. I asked him why and he said because I don't let H drink. When that brother was the one who told me that I needed to get H help. I've got to stop giving this stuff focus.

Anyhow, speaking of situations that I would like to consider under of control, I have a good friend who leaves her daughter with us when she feels unsafe. But now I haven't been able to reach her for several hours, and another friend called nervous she can't reach her, either. I'm hoping her cell died and she fell asleep early.

I just hear from my friend, glad she's safe

A cautious update. H got a short term consulting position, starting next week! His job search had been heating up for a few weeks now, so I'm so glad this firmed up! And it's local, and it gets him back into his long-time specialty that he'd fallen out of practice with.

Christmas Eve, H told me he understood how unhappy I was, and he was okay with going ahead with the separation I asked for in January, instead of waiting until he gets a permanent job offer. But, he said, he thinks since I'm the one who wants the separation, then I should be the one to move out. That if I wanted a divorce instead of separation, then he would be willing to move out, because then he would buy a place, but he doesn't want to rent some little thing, when he wants the kids 50%. I understand why all this makes sense to him, but I disagree.

I shared my O&H. I don't intend to be the one to move out. I want to give the kids the continuity of staying in the house with them. I've taken care of the kids by myself for extended lengths of time while he traveled, so I know I can do this. We agree to meet with an attorney to put a separation agreement together.

The next morning, H tells me that he changed his mind. That it would cost 10,000 to separate, I'm not sure how he figures this, but he thinks we should wait until he gets a permanent offer. But he sees that I've made changes, and he's going to make some changes, too. When have I heard this before? That he sees he has some of his brother in him, the condescending attitude, and he's going to work on it. I tell him I understand wanting to wait until getting a permanent offer, but I still plan to put a separation agreement together this week, before he starts work and gets busy. He agreed. And his attitude went back to his old happy self immediately.

I feel so relieved, that the end feels so near.

NED,

You don't know if he'll make changes or not.

You can choose to believe this is more wishfulness. Mind your part, what is solely yours and leave off what adds to your hurt.

I'm a tad confused about the separation agreement boundary hinging on a permanent offer. I was of the mind that was if he had a permanent offer out of town? Most likely my holey memory.



Okay, so you've had a long time this year with this goal in place...and more together time, please correct me if I'm wrong, than you've had previously...when he wasn't working. Was his perception correct on Christmas Eve? Have you been more unhappy with more time spent together?

Was his realization about his condescension new to you? Or had he forgotten that for himself? (It happens.)

Where is your relief coming from in you?

LA

LA, you're right, I don't know if he'll make changes or not, and I can enjoy the peace and respite we have today instead of projecting. I don't think your memory is holey, at one point he was only willing to separate if he took an out-of-town offer and I didn't go. But he said later he was willing to go through with separation once he gets a permanent offer.

We've had a lot more time spent together, and it's helped us understand each other better and get along a lot better than we ever have before. But as much as I work towards loving detachment, Separate and Equal, halve the withdrawals, his choice of judgment and condescending attitude at times, like Christmas Eve, still wear me down at those times.


I don't remember him owning this villager before. I was grateful he shared that moment with me.

My relief comes from the breathing room his salary will bring. When he is self-supporting, even if he is unwilling to go through with separation, I can make it happen and in good conscience know he'll be comfortable financially. If the tables were turned, I would hope that he'd have waited until I was self-supporting.

When he had said that about making changes, I let that sink in, and then shared with him, from the heart, that I think our issues are beyond what he and I could solve, or we would have resolved them already. H said something like, "we'll see." It's kind of sad to me, because folks work through this stuff together all the time. In my own life, I know three couples who got the outside help they needed this year, and are back to thriving. For crying out loud, H and I had gotten to points where we were thriving before. I know it can be done. It's like, it's not enough to let go, to accept it once and for all time, and the hope dissipates and stops haunting me. Being together, sharing the good moments, too, the hope stays, and I have to keep choosing to step back from the expectations, again and again. When part of me would want to just sink back in. Does any of this make sense?

Hi Ned, I hadn't seen your posts until now (can't sleep). I wish I had a magic pill for you, but I just don't. I can say that I totally get the condescending attitude, and how much it wears at you. In fact, I was just thinking about this tonight, in my situation. It can be oh, so intangible...so much that if you tried to explain it to anyone, they'd think you're nuts. I kept track the last couple days, and found half a dozen instances of what appear to be (I know, I know) my H reacting to me in a 'there she goes again' way. I don't know how much is me projecting my self-dislike onto him. But the sense is still there. All I can say is that communication seems like the only tool for that (not that I am using it, lol) - opening their eyes, as you seem to be able to do somewhat. I wish you luck, no matter the outcome.

Oh, cat, I don't mean to sound glum or something. Life is better and better. I hear you that it can feel intangible, but there is a lot that is obvious, once I started to see it. The verbal jabs, eye rolls and interrupting as if I wasn't even talking. I have tools today, like you said, about sharing my O&H, and I feel heard, even when it isn't acknowledged out loud. I understand that it's not about me.

I was reading these last few posts thinking first to myself "well why doesn't she just really work the MB program, encourage her husband to do the same...seems as though they might really have a chance for success".

But then I realized that you seem to have reached that point that has been outlined by others on this board, including yourself. You have made an accurate assessment of your life and how it will most likely play out with him..even with MB improvements (if any) and you have decided that this is not the way you want to live it out. You want other things in life that you realize you will never get from this marriage.

Am I even close to being on target with that?

Hi Ned,

I'm sorry that it's come to this, but I think you've worked awfully hard on yourself, and I believe that your peace can transcend any outcome here.

(((New Every Day))))

What I hear in the first paragraph quoted above..."But as much as I mind my part, he screws up on his."

Gets better, then worse, then best, then...worst? Christmas Eve as worse than ever?

I'm not mitigating here...no sides...just asking you if you truly have the expectation that your marriage (which has gotten to thriving, then not so much, to not often, to not at all...and back again) will stay thriving without him reverting at times to former harmful behaviors and reactivity?

And you may have addressed this expectation right in the face before and tossed it out, not what you want...consider that our oldest wishes creep back in...

to get it right and it will stay right...happily ever after comes AFTER major crisis...if we overcome, we're home free...

Doesn't mean you even know you have it...

And you may not...

Or maybe it's you, more highly aware, of the slow slide down from thriving...which only means you both are still learning how to exist, love and forgive, repair and thrive anyway, daily.

Next level stuff...same poles, different view. He owned something new...and you appreciated it...and his owning it didn't change everything...didn't solve the big puzzle...change your perception...even if it was the very thing two years ago you thought he would never admit to...and you're here...and he sees...and knows...doesn't mean he'll change and stay changed. Every word spoken since he shared his realization which wasn't condescending, mocking or snarky is change.

I think the holidays are so tough because our very old expectations come out to play...ones we keep away from our minds, think they are long gone (same as we thought last year)...and they are higher or deeper, less real or bearing reality.

Had your H said what he did on September 13th, instead of Christmas Eve (and I haven't looked it up yet, if you wrote about it on another thread), would you feel differently?

I don't have the scope here...what I experienced was our marriage changing from daily to weekly to monthly to quarterly to annual to bi-annual LBs (and it was way more erratic than that as you know)...I have the expectation we will harm one another with our old verbal reactions...and that doesn't stop us from thriving...as long as we hold to amending right then and there...and funnily enough, that's what my DH's latest LB is...saying he doesn't know how to apologize...he's back to where to say you're sorry is a cop out...just a way for bad people to let themselves off the hook to keep doing bad things...

We're re-doing again...and undoing...what are truly core issues...life-long, not me making or him making me...doesn't mean he didn't get it or get to it...

And I catch myself expecting him to get it and keep it...even as I lose it, act out my anger/frustration (and justify), against my code...and him not amending exempts me from my own code...

lol...

Within seconds this transpires...and holidays have colds and the flu, FOO and lots of seasonal conflict...

Retread kicked up my contribution list on CWMI's thread...am I reacting to just this statement/demand/comment right now from my spouse, with whom I haven't had to enforce my boundaries for three months because he hasn't crossed them (boundary atrophy for me)...and then he does...or am I reacting to FOO stuff in there, my hidden expectations, deeper ones I stopped culling for because, hey, my marriage got great...who needs to keep digging!

I caught my pockets full of pebbles and stones I'd been hoarding, NED...had to empty them out, tell DH about each one (without justifying)...and reveal I'd expected more of myself...and most were not about him, his behavior...most were me making him part of something out of my control at work or in our family...without telling him I was doing that.

PORH...hard for me to see when I'm not doing it...the lies by omission creep in (justify not rocking the boat, not sharing, inserting my eggshells again...blah blah blah).

So getting to a new level of thriving still kicks in my "coast" mode...don't look it's perfect...and old perfectionism in me is the culprit. I stop calling him on his little stuff...and seek relief away from him...justifying, justifying, knowing I'm justifying, and then justify my justifying.

So his mockery, condescension on Christmas Eve (my DH) also caught my stuff in it, too. Doesn't excuse...gets me back to my stuff...and my expectation he wouldn't do it again...and he doesn't regularly, and him doing it again doesn't mean he's doing it regularly again (he stopped it by the next day)...and yet I was shocked, again, he didn't use the tool of amends...me, looking at him, not me, my stuff...

At times...some times...not always or never...events don't wear down...when we feel it's the cumulative violation, we gotta check ourselves first. We're doing the accumulation.

And his sideways permission question/statement about separating with a short-term offer...his opinion right then...not a renegotiation from both of you, no POJA...seems old to me. A pattern resurfacing...re-injuring.

My thoughts...what's different for us in our marriage is that separation as next to final boundary enforcement...we aren't even close...and the stress of that alone would keep us swirling, I think...that your has been separation for some time...as you both changed your dance, the goal didn't change...maybe accelerating the "what's the use, really" sneaky permission/expectation whispering through two minds in one union...

And you coming to accept what you don't believe...without DJ...like that he'll stick to changes (and increase your skills we seemingly change back...knowing we really don't)...as just your part...and doesn't dishonor the marriage or your H...isn't permanent...doesn't change how you treat him, how intimate you are with him, your choices...

no wearing down in that...building confidence that we will pick up the tool we need, which is at hand, right there (and sometimes like keys you can't find three inches from their usual place)...even after we refuse to pick it up.

No wearing down...and breathing, anyway.

I'm with you, NED.

LA

Wow, you know, I don't think I could ask for a better group of friends, jayne, cat, LA, Telly, OH. This reality bringing thing we do here, making sense together of the most confusing pieces of our lives, gaining perspective, in a safe place, you are all part of that, for me, with what you share from your lives.


I think I am working the MB program, and encourage my H. I listen, and share my O&H, try things differently. H and I took a date night, Saturday. I can see how seeking separation doesn't look on the outside like it fits with that. Like that saying, "I can do for 12 hours what would appall me if I had to keep it up for a lifetime." I even enjoy the 12 hours, the date nights, the intimacy, our time together.

Though I do have my guesses, I can't really know what would happen if I stayed while I continue to work on my half. I have reasons for my reservations, but I know that there are folks who have overcome these things, working together, with outside accountability.

Telly, thanks for the hugs! I agree, I'm grateful for the level of peace we've worked for regardless of the outcome.

LA, sorry! I didn't mean it like that, that I work hard, and then he messes it up. I'm with you, there's an ebb and flow, unrealistic to think there won't be rough days. And rough days aren't what mean, time to throw in the towel. I'm sorry I came off like that. I have slips, he has slips. And often we share our O&H, own our parts, and make amends, and move forward. We have thriving at times, and the kids get to see that, too, us working together, and I appreciate that as the miracle it is.

I understand about expectations around the holidays. I don't remember the exact circumstances, but I remember catching myself with that last week, and how cool to remember we have choices today. And yes, I totally am on board with you on the having to pull the rocks out of my pockets, too, when I remember my goal isn't to "not rock the boat" anymore, it's to keep that net clean, as another poster quoted in cwmi's thread.


Thanks for sharing this with me, LA. I got to my next to final boundary enforcement September before last, but didn't give myself permission to go through with separation then, because of this financial issue and hoping that I can do this with H on board. So my mindset was not, if one more shoe falls, then I'm out. It was as soon as this work situation irons itself out, then we can do this. I don't want this marriage as is, the one where there is no Rule of Protection in place to protect me.

When I waver, I ask myself, is this what I want for my kids, for them to see that this is acceptable? And it's not, to me. My mom told me about how important to respect myself, and that a husband and a wife respect each other. But her behavior didn't match that. She let my dad and stepfather LB her, didn't protect herself or us kids. I don't want my kids to be confused that way, hearing me say one thing, but continuing to accept unacceptable behavior.

I hear you about the stress of this impending keeping us swirling, and that makes sense. I don't have a good answer for that. Any suggestions?

H this morning he said when he tells people we are separating, they ask him why, and he says he doesn't know, it's just Ears. Because we don't fight anymore. So he asked me, why a separation, do I want perfection from life? Because nothing's perfect? Good thing he asked the morning after my meeting, so I didn't feel exasperated that he asked me again, when I thought I've been clear, sent emails, and so on. Whatever the reason, it wasn't clear, and like cat says, the answer is communication. So I told him, I don't like that when I have a concern, there are times he views my perspective at the problem, instead of working with me to find solutions we both like.

He asked, like what? I said, like his drinking and driving. I shared my O&H, that nights like last night, when he met his buddy for dinner and pitchers, I am concerned, what if he hurts someone, or himself, on the drive home? He shared his perspective, that everyone does things that are damaging, like folks who are overweight like me get health problems. Life isn't going to be perfect. Got it, thanks for sharing. At least today we can share our POVs respectfully.

I get it that his actions alone don't have the power to upset me, that what upsets me is my own expectations. Last week, he walked to the bar, but this week the place they went was out of walking range. Not my actions to own. Maybe next week the answer will be a different one, who knows? And what upsets me is what I don't share. That it hurts me that the kids see this, as if it's acceptable. I've got to let it go, to live life on life's terms. Like H says, there are things they learn from me that aren't so great either. And that's the part I can work on.

Ears...whenever I see your subject line, I can see Carrie Underwood singing "Jesus take the wheel..."

Not sure that helps you any, but hang in there, my friend. ((Ears))

Thanks, Soolee, I love that song, and that visual!

It sounds like he doesn't want to separate, am I right?

Would you keep him if he stopped drinking?