I'm so happy to find a forum where I can finally unload my story! I've had to hold it in for the last week, and I'm going crazy!

Let me start off by talking about the state of our marriage. By all measures, we had a wonderful marriage until last month. We're both in our 30's, have been best friends since college, have fulfilling jobs in our fields, and have two beautiful kids, 1 and 5. We've always focused on having a long and happy life together, read marriage books, treat eachother with respect, support, and love. So what could go wrong?

Well, I hadn't been to this site, so I didn't realize that my wife's greatest need was conversation, and that she needed to have it to feel complete. Don't get me wrong, we talked all the time, but probably not about the right things.

So last month when a friend of mine who worked in Seattle offered to have lunch with her since she'd be there for a conference, I thought it was a really nice gesture, and didn't think anything of it whatsoever. But that was the start. They talked at lunch for an hour, and it really filled her "Love Bank". They continued to talk in the days after that.

A week later, she came to me and said that she was aquiring feelings for my friend, and vice versa. I was hurt, of course, but proud that she had come to me so quickly. They both promised to end communication and work on our own marriages instead. (He's also married with kids.)

A month has passed. But on Christmas Eve I caught her sending a naked picture of herself to him. After Christmas, she finally confessed to everything. She had been continuing the emotional affair for the last month, and had met him at his work to have sex one time (that I know of). I was, and still am devistated.

I won't ramble on to much, but I just need to say that my wife is worth fighting for. She screwed up, big time, and she knows it. She has confessed, she's remoresful, and we're working on gaining back the love and trust that was lost. We renewed our vows to eachother on New Years Eve, and we're doing everything we can to fix this.

The moral of the story is, if the "most important needs" aren't filled by you, they will find someone else to fill them. I wish I'd found this site earlier.

~ StayingStrong32

Hi SS, sorry you are here. What is your plan for fixing the marriage? Have extraordinary precautions been put in place so this doesn't happen again, such as a committment to never be alone with other men and transparency of all activities, cell phone passwords, computer passwords?

Secondly, has she ended contact with the OM and are you secretly verifying this by monitoring all her activities? Snooping will be your greatest ally in preventing this affair from going any further.

Another essential step will be informing the OM's wife about their adultery. Has she been told the truth so she can protect herself from your wife and her husband? This is essential information about her life which she has a right to know. She also has to know so she can get STD testing.

Keeping the affair a secret only increases the chances that it will resume. Affairs thrive on secrecy.

If the OM's wife is not told, then your wife is free to pursue him and he is free to pursue him. With 2 people watching the adulterers from both end, it is less likely to resume.

I would get the book Surviving an Affair by Dr Willard Harley, which will give you a plan for recovery. And it will take a real PLAN to recover from this. Just ending the affair is not a plan.

Can't we just forgive and forget?

and an excerpt from Requirements for Recovery that sums up what it will take to recover quite well:

entire article here

SS, people cheat because they have poor boundaries. Your wife had very poor boundaries and if this is not corrected, it will happen again.

Steve Harley of Marriage Builders said this once:

Tell other mans WIFE IMMEDIATELY!!! Then expose to her family, your family, etc. DUDE

Welcome to MB, SS. I'm sorry that these events brought you here.

Your wife did the right thing in confessing her affair to you, and you both seem to be on the road to recovery. However, I would caution you (the betrayed spouse) that your wife might not be fully engaged in recovery yet.

From what you have written, she only confessed to you "after Christmas", so that was probably about 1 week ago. At this stage, it would be normal for your wife to be exhibiting signs of withdrawal and unhappiness at missing her affair partner.

You do not say that she is doing so. It might be that because the affair was short-lived (beginning only in December?), your wife had not developed addictive feelings and so withdrawing from the affair is relatively easy for her. However, speaking from my own experience with my WH, lack of withdrawal can sometimes meant that the affair partners are still in touch, so the affair has not ended. If it has not ended there is no reason for her to feel low. However, if it does not end with complete non-contact, your wife is giving and receiving love bank deposits from another man, not you, and I'm sure you do not want another party involved in your marriage. Emotional contact with another man is devastating, and physical contact will resume soon enough also.

Have you read all the free articles in the How To Survive Infidelity section of this site? You should do so, including the letters concerning unfaithful wives AND husbands. Dr Harley's advice is systematic and consistent, regardless of the particular details of the marriage and the affair.

You must read the article Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After an Affair and follow the guidelines. If your wife is already doing all the things Dr Harley recommends and is being honest with you, then you are off to a great start.

You did not ask a specific question. Do you have one?

Thank you for all the great information, everyone!

I confronted the OM immediately, and let them both know that no more communication will happen between them, or there would be severe consequences. In addition, I told him I would tell his wife unless he did. And he apparently has now. I plan on confirming that with her this week.

I intend on following all the advice presented here. I will make the bounderies very clear, and I will insist that everything is shared. She has confessed everything to her family and to mine, which took an increible amount of bravery on her part. She has displayed that she is committed to this family and making our marriage work. For that, I am so greatful. I honestly can't imagine having to goIng through some of the D stories I've read on this forum.

She has talked to me about missing the conversations she had with the OM. She is definetely down, but we've been talking a lot about it, and I'm doing my best to fill that void that he was filling. I will certainly go through all the articles, and I'm confident that she will read them with me and take every step that is suggested. I can't promise that some contact won't occure in the future, but who initiates it, whether it is done in secrecy, and what comes out of it is what really matters. All I can do is pray that she'll make the right choice. I must believe that she will.

I guess I don't really have a question. I just wanted to get it off my chest, and to recieve confirmation from the forum that I'm not the only one, this entirely my fault, and that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Every response has been tremendously helpful, so far. Thanks everyone for the encouragement.

Good! Please do contact the OM's W yourself and make sure she has all the facts about the affair. It is not uncommon for a WS to spin the story to the BS if he thinks you are going to tell her. A typical spin would be "MrBS [you] is a jealous wackjob who believes everyone is trying to get in his wife's pants. He has imagined i am having an affair with his wife!" So when you do call, she is furious that you would try and tell her a lie about an affair. So, be prepared to overcome his likely spin by being willing to produce all your evidence of the affair.

And most importantly, SPY on your wife so this doesn't happen again. Trusting your spouse TOO MUCH is what has led to this affair. I wouldn't make that mistake again. Put a GPS on her car, install flexispy on her phone and put a keylogger on her computer. She will be very tempted to contact him again so you will want to catch it early in order to nip it in the bud.

It is not lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries.

She will need your help in preventing a reocurrance. Your trust that she will do the right thing is very misplaced and DANGEROUS to your marriage. This affair happened because of loose boundaries and a misplaced sense of trust, it would be hazardous to continue that attitude.

Will she send the OM a no contact letter as recommended by Dr Harley in Surviving an Affair?

here



[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

32,
I don't have anything to add to the good advice you've already gotten, only to amplify it: As Melody Lane said, "Keeping the affair a secret only increases the chances that it will resume. Affairs thrive on secrecy. If the OM's wife is not told, then your wife is free to pursue him and he is free to pursue her. With 2 people watching the adulterers from both end, it is less likely to resume."

There is no reason for you to trust this guy, and no reason for you to hold off a moment longer on telling his wife. Failing to do so is tantamount to acting as his enabler. He's no friend of yours and he needs to understand that you & your marriage are not to be trifled with.

Even if you "agreed" with OM, struck a deal with him not to tell his wife, you have struck a deal with the devil here. You cannot count on him to act in good faith.

Additionally, how would you feel if a third party struck a deal with your wife to keep her future affairs secret from you? Not only would you be outraged at your spouse, you would be outraged that a third party would so callously agree to deceive you.

Exposure will suck for him. There's a good chance he will call your wife in a screaming rage.

Guess what? That was a GREAT thing for my marriage. The day he totally lost it with her over the phone was the day she realized that I had NEVER totally lost it with her. I'd never gotten angry enough to scream at her hysterically and make threats... even in the face of the greatest trauma of my life.

So man up, and be ready to face the other man's wife with evidence. Not only do you have a responsibility to your marriage to ensure that the other man is being watched closely by his spouse, and an additional incentive to prevent the other man from ever contacting your wife again, but you have a societal obligation to let this poor betrayed wife know the truth about her own relationship.

The truth is always a defense.

This is simply untrue of people with integrity. If their needs are unfulfilled, an honorable person communicates this and takes steps to fix the marriage. An affair is a cowardy, dishonest act and not everyone in your wife's situation would have cheated as she did.

Follow up with OMW to confirm exposure. Then no more business trips to the OM's city for WW.

The last part is setting up boundaries. You were given a warning but did not respond. How will be you response next time?

Keep reading the MB articles...

Stop telling your enemy your game plan.

Whoever told you this is lying (or being lied to)
OM has not told his wife the truth about the affair. If he told her ANYTHING it's a complete rework of the truth to make the affair seem like nothing and you seem like a crazy person.


Call her now, and with your wife present. When OMW starts denieng what you are saying, put you wife on the phone to confirm it.
Do this NOW!

Have your wife write a letter of No-Contact to OM, review it with her, and mail it together.


I intend on following all the advice presented here. I will make the bounderies very clear, and I will insist that everything is shared. She has confessed everything to her family and to mine, which took an increible amount of bravery on her part. She has displayed that she is committed to this family and making our marriage work. For that, I am so greatful. I honestly can't imagine having to goIng through some of the D stories I've read on this forum. [/quote]

Just to give everyone an update. I had my wife write a "No Contact" letter last night, and she sent it after I approved. Today I e-mailed the other wife and asked her what she knew had happened. Well, it turned out the guy was telling the truth, and he had told his W every last detail. The shocker was, he told her even more then my W told me. So, we're sitting down tonight to discuss details (which the OW has already told me), and we're going to try and practice some "Radical Honesty". She knows I talked to the OW and that she told me everything, so this should be interesting to see what she shares. Maybe there's more that we both don't know.

I've also established some more strict boundaries with her. She can no longer spend any time with another guy without me there. I trusted her before to be able to do this, but she's shown that she can't.

She's also agreed to go through this site with me and read all the content and advice on how to progress after an affair. This is making things very hopeful that we will get through this together. She's still definitely in her "fog", and we've discussed that. She had really strong feelings for this guy, and she may have even thought it was love. But it is definitely over now, and only time will tell if she will be able to resist any temptation she has while still in the fog. Does anyone have advice on how to treat her while she's in this state of "foginess"?

good job!! These are boundaries that EVERY married person should observe, SS. The absence of boundaries in marriage is what leads to affairs. It is not lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries.

Good job!

Just be kind and thoughtful and snoop like a bloodhound!

Anyone who knows the passwords to an E-Mail adress can log on it...
You where probably talking to OM, unless you have atleast called OMW, you don't know who you where E-Mailing.

Call or go visit her!

So it is now clear that your wife did not tell you the entire truth. It is important that she be tested for STD's. These are the consequences to affairs.

So, the BEST thing I ever did was to contact the OW!!! What a great technique I just learned, and anybody in the same situation needs to do this:

After getting the whole story from the OW, I told my wife I knew everything, and that I wanted to hear it all from her mouth. So she told me EVERYTHING. . . . even MORE then what the OW knew! Wow. So I went back to the OW and told her the new stuff. She did the same thing with her H and she came back to me with what parts of the stories were different. When I addressed my W about it, she just got livid because he's pretty much calling my W a liar, and now she TOTALLY despises the OM. I think this may have been the fastest "coming out of the fog" in history.

One example of the differences in their story is, he is denying that they ever ACTUALLY had sex. He claims they tried, in the car, a number of times, but never went through with it. Why would my wife make something like that up? This guy seems like a freakin' tool.

Anyway, knowing the whole story is like starting from square one again. Today was really hard, but now that all the cards are on the table I know that recovery will be quicker. My mind doesn't have to work to make stuff up anymore! It's a strange relief.

Listen, the OM was a good friend of mine. I wanted to give him the opportunity to at LEAST tell his W himself. I gave him a week, and now that I've told her everything I've exposed him for what he is. . . . a pig and a liar. But, I at least gave him the courtesy.

Why?

He pounded your wife. Why would anyone think this way?

SS32,

You said I will tell you something. I agree with Mel on this, but I think you have something very very wrong.

The boundaries that need to be in place with a PLAN to enforce them are HER boundaries not boundaries you set for her. Until she can come to you and tell you about her boundaries going forward and how she will protect them, you are simply becoming her watchdog, relieving her of the responsibility of facing her own failures.

She has to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with herself and face what she has done, how she has allowed her boundaries to be crossed or why she did not have any boundaries. Then she MUST come up with a plan to protect her boundaries and your marriage. Until she does this,you won't recover. This information must be conveyed to you, and then the two of you assess her plan and tweek it so that it is a win-win.

You see if a simple conversation leads to her falling in bed with some guy, you are not the problem here. People don't drop their pants just because they haven't "really communicated" for awhile. There was something else going on.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Wow, thank you for such an insensative comment. Maybe I think that way, because I don't want to be like him. Maybe because I actually think of other people before myself. Maybe because I believe in the golden rule. I see no reason to stoop to his level.

And also because, he hardly "pounded" my wife. He denies he even had full intercourse, and she says it was so short, and his [censored] was so small, that she could hardly tell it happened because it was over before it started. Clothes on, in a car. . . I mean, I'm just lucky that that's all that happened.

My marriage is stronger then to let something like this ruin it. It has made us realize how much we love each other, and that we are both willing to do anything to make things work. We will both be stronger, and our marriage will be MUCH stronger because of this. It sucks that something so tramatic has to occur in order to make a marriage strong enough to last the test of time, sometimes. Not with everyone, of course. But, for us, maybe this was necessary. Who knows.

This is REALLY great advice. When we talked about boundaries the other night, it was all me telling HER what the boundaries were. She did not respond well to this. Tonight I will take everything back, and ask her to come up with her own boundaries which she must stay accountable to.

And I agree, lack of communication was not the whole problem. I think I've determined something I learned a while back about EQ, or Emotional Quotiant. It's someone's ability to not just use their "feelings" in making a decision, but also use their "thinking". If you use mostly your "feelings" when you make a decision in order to fulfill an emotional impulse, you have a low EQ. If you use your "thinking" to override your emotions, then you have a higher EQ. Fortunately, EQ can be taught, and anyone can learn to raise their EQ.

So, I've determined, especially based on other aspects of our life and how she makes decisions is, my W has a very low EQ. I look forward to studying more about this and hopefully determining a way to raise it. Any thoughts?

Don't be lulled into a false sense of security.

I've seen many false recoveries on here. Keep watching.

JL hit the nail on the head, something else was missing.

"You see if a simple conversation leads to her falling in bed with some guy, you are not the problem here. People don't drop their pants just because they haven't "really communicated" for awhile. There was something else going on."

Sorry you joined the "Club". The above quote you said you talked all of the time. Then you said your friend and your wife had lunch for an hour. So can you tell me what he said to her in 1 hour that met her needs that made her want to have sex with him? And made her want to start sending naked pics to him? Are you sure this is her first affair?


I mean how do you go from being in a good marriage and then in an hour meeting she is a teenager that can't wait to go bump boots with her new boyfriend. What I am saying is you need to get to the bottom of this. From your description you were a decent husband and a 1 hour meeting turns her into this?

Did they know each other before this? Were these feelings from lust she had from the guy before. It just seems odd that a short lunch would do that although I am sure the pig was hitting on her from the get go and she was loving it. Are you really sure this is her only affair??

On another note this just shows how stupid people are in affairs. I have spent a lot of time with any teenage girl relatives telling them to "NEVER AND I MEAN NEVER" send a naked picture to a guy. The whole world can see it. And it happened to one of my niece's. She sent one anyway. I thought teenagers in love do the dumbest things but when a married woman sends one to her "Boyfriend" well you just have to shake your head.

Again, I feel for you. My XW did some real stupid things and I have to give you credit for sticking around for her. That is something that I would not do. Best of luck in your healing.

SS32 It does nt matter if he pounded your wife hard or soft,a long time or very little, with her clothes all the way off or partially on, in a limosine or ford escortor a fancy hotel, with a big penis or small penis, she still had sex(screwed, pounded, fornificated,intercoarse, banged, boned, make love,and so on if you need) another man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! dont make excuses for her. There was surely more missing for her to pound another man in such a short time! Think about it!!

I doubt you are getting the full story from your WW. It is not believable that she met him and had sex the first time they conversed. And, it seems unlikely this is her first affair. I think you should insiston a polygraph.
I cannot believe you feel you owed this man any courtesy. And, telling you your wife was pounded is accurate and not insensitive, IMO.

Okay, everyone. This is supposed to be a support forum, and not an attack forum. I've said that Its over between them, she has confessed every detail, we are taking great strides towards repairing what was broken, and there's no doubt in my mind that we love eachother and we're going to have a stronger marraige when we get through this. So, I understand that everybody might be projecting their own situations onto mine, but there's NO need for a polygraph, NO need to dwell on the fact that she slept with a friend of mine, and no need to be so unbelievably suspicious that she's still lying, still messin around, whatever. You simply don't know our relationship, so there's no need to make suggestions like that. So please try and stay constuctive. PLEASE.

Since some may have misinterpreted my story, let me clarify. The guy and his family were good friends of ours. He invited her to lunch, after asking me, and they talked for an hour. They continued to talk every day after that for two weeks. It started out as a purely EA. On week 3, she met him in person for the first time since it started, and it was just for coffee. The next week, same thing, but it turned physical at that point. He made the move on her both times, and that has been admitted and confirmed by him. All parties know that sex was not the reason she met with him on the three occasions. But when you establish the level of emotional connection that they had, it's no big surprise that it went further.

So, please stop makin it sound like she's some slut who jumped this random guy after lunch, because it was nothing like that. This forum is supposed to be for emotional support to enable my healing process, not to create more negative feelings for my W. She's been my best friend since college, we love eachother more than anything, she's an amazing mother and wife, and I understand that we're all human and we all make major F ups in our life. Maybe if some of you all took more time to realize that, you wouldve been able to repair your own relationships.

ss, easy, now. I'm not going to attempt to speak for everyone, but I think I can say this: you are on a forum for rebuilding a M. The people on here are in varying stages of either healing their M or coming to terms with the fact that it's not going to happen. A lot of different emotions come with all of these stages. Some posters on here are so damaged and hurt that they carry that bias with them in their postings. Others have posting styles that come across much stronger than what they actually intend to convey. Online postings just can't be the same as meeting face-to-face, but it'll have to do in order to accomplish what we're trying to do, here.

Still others have accepted and embraced you as 'family', and as family they're trying to watch your back to make sure your WW does nothing to hurt you further.

All of these postings are intended to help you, not jump on your W. Accept the ones that help, discard the ones that don't. You get to choose. But if your W has confessed and you don't want to 'dwell on the fact' that she slept with a friend of yours, what is your goal for being on this forum?

There are many, many BS who have been exactly where you are, experienced where you are right now, and have not had a good outcome. Of course we know people screw up.

But may I say, gently, here: "Maybe if some of you all took more time to realize that, you wouldve been able to repair your own relationships." This comment from you is presumptuous and is, IMO, premature on your part. You may not be in the place of healing with your W that you think you are. We're trying to keep you conscious of that.

Hey please don't forget we are on your side!!

Right now she is NOT a amazing wife and mother. You have alot of work to do still and so does she.

She should thank god that you are willing to try and recover the M, because if you werent she would have caused the kids even more heartache.


Are you sure you meant to say this? or is this BS fog babble?

RMX

StayingStrong, why are you here?

If you are in recovery, why are you not posting in the Recovery forum?

Okay, thank you for the reality check that everyone on here is in their own situations, dealing with their own stuff, and in all different stages of healing. Of course, my last comment was "BS Fog Babble" and I didn't mean to say it. I take it back. I know it was highly presumtuous and premature, but I think a lot of people who post here are being highly presumptuous about my W, our marriage, and where we are in the process of repairing what she's done, when they only know this little piece of my life. I know I set myself up for rediculous comments when I post something so private up on a public forum, and I guess I just need to realize that. Take the good, and leave the bad, as MaritalBliss said.

I don't know, should I be posting in the Recovery forum already? I mean it's only been like 2 weeks since D-Day. We're both kindof in our fog. We're going through the motions of repairing our relationship, but it's still very hard to sleep, and the anger and hurt is still subsiding. I guess that will probably continue for quite awhile.

Just an FYI, I'm not totally clueless. I am not granting my W blind trust again by any means. She's being monitored very closely, and in complete secrecy, as much as it pains me to do it. I hope that some day I won't have to anymore. I've always been very trusting, and it just sucks that those days are over.

Anyway, off to work. More to follow.

You're forgiven, ss

Yep. It does suck. "For better or for worse"; this is the 'for worse' part, having been sucker-punched by the person you chose to trust more than anyone.

I don't know that you are in R right now. Of course, you may be one of those extreme exceptions. Your D-Day is very, very recent. It couldn't hurt you to read the threads over there. But I'd like to invite you to stay over here as well, and post your progress for awhile longer.

1. You understand that your wife can never have any contact with OM again for the rest of her life. Has she aggreed to this?

2. OM is not you freind. You owe him nothing, infact you owe him less than nothing. Do not minimize his involvment in this, he is scum and should be treated as such.

As I said previously, I laid down the boundaries FOR her the other day. Then after a post suggested that was the wrong approach, I talked to her last night and took those boundaries back. I told her what the boundaries for ME would be, that I would adhere to, and that she would need to think about her own boundaries and let me know what they are that she promises to uphold. I'm confident she'll come back with the same boundaries that we discussed, but much more meaningful coming from her.


You are correct. OM is not my friend anymore. I have NEVER minimized his involvement in this whole thing. As a matter of fact, even though my W was weak and went along with it, he really strung her along, used her to fill his sexual voids, and dumped her just as quick. He told her that he loved her, always left their meetings open to a future meeting or contact, etc. He is scum, and if I ever see him again then I would like nothing better then to deck him. Actually, because of how he treated her in the end, my W would probably deck him too. That would be fun.

I just don't understand why some guys would rather get their rocks off with your W instead of being great friends your whole life??? What's up with that? Doesn't friendship mean an f'n LICK to guys anymore these days?

Along those lines though, I have to admit that my wife is drop-dead gorgeous, and I am going to find it hard to get close to other couples from now on due to the fear that another guy will try the same thing. Does anyone else have this problem? I've told her that she will ALWAYS be faced with temptation throughout our lives, and that if she wants to stay married she's going to need to deal with and learn how to control herself when that happens. She's one of those low-self-esteem hotties, as I would describe. I think working on her self-esteem and self-image might be really good for us to work on going forward.

Okay, off to work. . . .

There is no criteria for which forum to use. Use the one you want. Exception would be the preg. forum when there is no OC.

So, has she agreed to STD testing?

We've talked about it, but the OW said they're perfectly clean, and I told her the same. I know that doesn't mean a lot, but it is what it is.

SS,

Let's start off with the following statement by you.

Many people think that if they are vigilant, and the pain eventually subsides or even goes away that they are recovered. That is the point Harley makes time after time. This is not recovery, this at best a return to the marriage as it was before, which clearly did not go so well when temptation, smooth talking, and weak boundaries came into play.


This is the reason people are sort of on your case. They know that because the symptoms seem to go away, you have not necessarily cured the disease. No one is denigrating your W but they are looking at her actions and they match thousands of WS's that been posted about on this site.

You also said

In my humble opinion you could not be more off base. Her failure was not about self-esteem nor self-image. It is poor boundaries and no plan to protect them.

Let me offer you an example from my life. I am NOT drop dead gorgeous nor am I George Clooney. But, I was a batchelor until my 30's and enjoyed shall we say I had a very active batchelor life. I knew my way around bars, dancing, social events, sports events and certainly world travel. When I married, I took my vows very seriously. I also realized that I would be traveling a great deal, some years as much a 3 weeks a month.

I also knew what Harley says, will power is not enough. Put into enough situation at some point the temptation might be too much. So I made a plan. When I traveled, I never dined with a woman alone. Always in groups or not at all. I did not hang out in bars even in the hotels. I NEVER and I mean NEVER went anywhere where their was music and dancing. I would eat, go back to my room, and read/watch TV/work. I have done this successfully for well over 30 years. MY plan was to simply eliminate temptation by not being near it.

What is your W's plan? She is good looking, she has poor boundaries, and she has no plan as yet. I will also tell you that I did not have self-esteem issues or self-image problems but still KNEW that a plan to protect myself was required.

Your W promising, you monitoring, the pain passing, even her remorse are not enough. Self-examination, discussion of weaknesses, and a plan to address them is required. This is why Harley pushes his two policies: the policy of joint agreement, POJA, and the policy of radical honesty. Both are tools for negotiating a win-win situation.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Whew. Well, that is a relief.

Thank you for the advice, JL. I disagree slightly with this comment, because unfortunately self-esteem and self-image play a large roll in situations like this. Non-boundaries on our part do play a part, but I'm confident that I could have lunch with any one of her friends, or even one of my co-workers, and I would never EVER think about going behind my wife's back to see them again. Even if one of them showd an interest in me, my self-esteem doesn't require that to make me happy. I'm perfectly happy with myself. She isn't necessarily happy with herself.

I think that in your special circumstances of having to travel so much, it was definitely necessary for you to create some hard boundaries in order to maintian trust. In my situation, even though NOW I know we should've had them, there's never been any reason to EVER think that I would need them. I mean, we have dinner at the table every night, sleep in the same bed every night, call eachother throughout the day. I mean, you SHOULD be able to trust your wife to have lunch with a friend of yours when it's offered. You SHOULD be able to trust your friend to have lunch with your wife and not have it turn into anything else. But, I guess I've learned the hard way that you can't always trust your spouse to do that.

So, now I realize that boundaries are VERY important. Still waiting for her to come up with her own and lay them on the table so that it's more meaningful than coming from me.

BTW, since I'm still in the "Surviving" forum. . . . does anyone else have this problem? I'm sitting at work, doing my business, and then negativity starts to infiltrate my thoughts. I start thinking about the TIMELINE. Even though I've already done this 1000 times, I start to think about where I was on the days she was cheating on me, what my mood was, what her mood was, what we were doing that day, e-mails she sent, texts she sent, what signs I might've seen, whether we made love on that day or not. . . . . my heart starts to race, my head and hands get hot, I can barely see straight, and the pain starts to rush back as if it had just happened.

Does that happen to anyone? I hate it. I know those moments will start to go away, eventually.

Oh yeah, also I wanted to ask this of everyone. . . . during the affair, we were having the best sex of our marriage! What's up with that? Was it guilt sex? Was she imagining him when we were doing it? Or was it that he was providing a service of filling her love bank during their talks that made her more in love with me??? I can't be the only one that experienced that.

The negative is, now whenever the sex starts to get really good in our marriage, I'll start to have suspicions. That SUCKS!

SS32,

We've talked about it, but the OW said they're perfectly clean, and I told her the same. I know that doesn't mean a lot, but it is what it is.

OM is a proven LIAR, guys like that will run several women at a time, frequent bawdy houses, etc.

The country government usually has a free clinic, send her. The test for HPV is for females only, and HPV seems to cause genital cancer in men too. Your wife has forced you to assume all the risks of casual sex with none of the benefit, if OMW has STD so do you, but you never got to F her!

NJ

Ask her to diarise her interaction with OM. Use it to framework later questions.

She can make a second account of her sexual activities if it is too harsh to look at right now.

Keep contact with OMW in case clarification is needed.

personally, I would rather that she NOT diarise her accounts of what happened. We both are ready to move on and not talk about it anymore. It's to painful for the both of us to keep dwelling on the past.

Staystrong,
There's one thing you don't know, but we that have recovered our marriage know - is that you you will be going through several phases. It took two years to R my M. The good people here helped me through my phases. You are just now starting to experience the phases - the SF, the questioning of the timeline. Don't be so quick to forgive your WW - she hasn't earned it yet. Below is a link to a letter from a wayward wife from Harley on what it takes to recover a marriage. I would give it to your WW.

Harley response to Wayward Wife on rules to recover marriage

You have to understand some of us have been here for years. Your situation is not unique or new. Many have come so quick to forgive their WS only to find out more information they didn't have earlier.

Below is another link to a article that should make sense to you on forgiving...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Gg

SS32, if you do that, you will constantly be living with the elephant in the kitchen. Talking about these things is exactly what you must ultimately do. This "easy forgiveness" at this point so close to DDay will not serve your R well at all. Forgiveness comes at the culmination of recovery, not before. It is not a prerequicet(sp) to R. Keeping an open heart and doing the necessary steps to fall in love again is all that is required at this time. Forgiveness is the reward after years of hard work.

As far [censored] STD's are concerned, accept no one's word on this. Clinical testing is required. My Fww approached this topic with her OM and he swore up and down he was clean. Then I ended up with and HPV infection. My Fww now gets a pap smear every year with the notion of cervical cancer so prevalent.

I believe the two of you have the potential to recover your M, but do not side step the difficult steps in between. This is really hard work. Best wishes to the both of you.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry, I never said anything about forgiving her this quickly. I really like your second link in your post, where he talks about not forgiving until forgivenss has been well earned, which might take many years. There's a difference between forgiving, and dwelling on the huge mistake that she made by being unfaithful. We spent a week dwelling on it, we talked in depth about every detail of the affair, we mourned together, we recommitted ourselves to eachother, and at this point I see NO reason for reviewing the events of the last 2 months. Now, we're both in counseling, and hopefully she'll be able to discover why she did it, and learn how to prevent it in the future if it ever comes up, but the "elephant in the room" is not something we have any need or desire to talk about again. I'd just assume move on.

And, sometime down the road, when she has EARNED back my love, trust and respect, I will forgive her for what she did. It might take several years, but I hope I can do that someday.

Hi SS...

I just finished reading your thread - this is my first post to you...I am a FWW, my husband, Mr. W [who also posts here] and I did recover our marriage using MB, so we know a bit about the path you have just begun...A couple things stood out to me...

The part about your setting her boundaries and then taking them back in particular...You do understand that YOU are still supposed to have boundaries, yes? Think of boundaries like fences - set up around you to protect you...So your boundary regarding contact between your wife and OM might look like this : If you continue contact with OM, then I will choose to ____________. [whatever you choose to put in the blank is your enforcement of said boundary] Make sense?

In our case when it was firmly established that NC was in place, Mr. W had one boundary that he stated with conviction to me, and that was, "I refuse to live in a loveless marriage"...I knew he was serious as a heart attack - from that point we dove head first into MB...MB gives you a PLAN for how to fall romantically in love with each other again - and STAY that way! Good stuff!

The very BEST tool that you could use to recover your marriage would be for the two of you to attend a Marriage Builders Weekend - there are links at the top of this page...Mr. W and I can't say enough good things about it...Doing so will give you both daily access to Dr. Harley himself on the private forums here, as well as an intense accountability program...for LIFE...The program is backed with a 100% money back guarantee...I hope the two of you will consider it...


Careful SS, this is dangerous thinking...For a couple of reasons, first it presumes you are immune to having an affair yourself - and THAT is a scary place to be - I would have said the same about myself - "No way would I EVER cheat!"...Those that believe they are immune are at the greatest risk...Dr. Harley is very clear that we are all wired for affairs and shows us how to protect against them...What you must understand is that in the above scenario you gave? The one regarding having lunch with a member of the opposite sex? THAT is the part that means your boundaries are out of whack! Married people do NOT do that...A boundary is NOT a matter of testing your ability to RESIST temptation, it is something you put into place to AVOID temptation! See? Will power is very unreliable...You'd be wise to listen and learn regarding that...

The other reason, is that your attitude of superiority about this will likely bleed through to your wife - I realize that you most certainly DO have the moral high ground right now, but I would advise you to be careful how you wield it...Mr. W's empathy towards me in understanding just how I'd gotten myself into the mess I put us both in helped our recovery so very much...

I noticed you said you were going to have your wife read here...Has she? If so, just the articles, or the forums as well? Any chance she will post?

Best,

Mrs. W

Wow, great advice Mrs. W. Concerning the boundaries for myself, I did state them to her. I promised I would never put myself in a position which might lead to temptation. I promised not to ever be with another W unless she was there, even if it was just for lunch or something. I promised "Radical Honesty". The one thing I didn't say was what I would do if she still kept in contact with the OM. Or what I would do if she did this again. I honestly don't know what I would do. I also kindof feel like if I told her that, and she did it, then she would try her hardest to hide it from me and would never tell me the truth. I guess it's a catch 22.

I understand that even I am capable of cheating if the situation was right. I would always hope that I would make the right decision, but I guess I don't ever want to find that out. I've set my boundaries with her, and I will stick to them.

I'm going to look into an MB seminar right now. Thanks for the great tips!

I had these same thoughts and they went through my head every couple hours it seemed like. I always asked my FWW for the dates and details but we could never get through it without me getting mad. This went on for about a week.

Then one day at work I got an email with a subject of "answers to your questions". She laid out the time line for me. It wasn't easy reading it but it helped me put together some of the days we had went through where things didn't make sense to me.

I used to look back and think I did something really nice for her on this day and she was a total B.... to me. I always wondered if that POS had contacted her that day. It really helped to piece it all together.

If you are having thoughts about all of this I would tell you to ask her to give you the dates of all of this. Doing this is not dwelling on the past but it's helping you heal from it.

SS I understand completely what you are doing here and to me you seem a lot like I was 4 years ago when I discovered my wife in a affair.

When you first discover it, you think that your situation is unique and that all these people telling you otherwise are bitter or suspicious or otherwise around the twist in what they are telling you and you go into denial thinking your wife could never do that, could never be as calculating etc. You get the "story" in dribs and drabs and want to believe it's true. However, the advice to get a polygraph for your wife is sound. She may well start singing like a canary before the test - that is pretty much the rule.

What you have been told about boundaries is correct - you need to ask your wife what she intends to DO to make sure this will never happen again. And you have to decide on your own boundaries of what you are prepared to tolerate and accept in order to remain in the marriage.

The TRUTH is your wife wanted to bang some other guy and she wasn't a good wife or mother while she was/IS in that wayward frame of mind.

So what you are doing now is "makin a list and checkin it twice" and tiucking off the areas you think will lead to a recovery. But this site has some unique ways of dealing with adultery that are pretty counter intuitive. Here's a few facts for you:

1. ALL wayward spouses LIE
2. ALL waywards seek to minimise the extent and the truth.
3. OM'sW is a good ally for you right now and you should both be in contact to monitor your respective spouses and ensure NC is maintained.
4. There are good odds that either your wife or OM has done this before and NEITHER of them is as "clean" as their BS's are desperate to believe and you should get checked right NOW for every STD known to man.
5. Your wife should write a NC letter you approve of and send it to OM
6. Your wife must commit to just compensation for her affair.

In MB terms, just compensation is outlined perfectly in the FAQ's here about surviving an affair but take the following steps as a guide.

1. Spending 15 hours a week alone together for undivided attention meeting intimate EN's of Affection, Sexual Fullfillment, Recreational Companionship and Conversation.
2. You should both do the EN questionnaire and determine your top 5 emotional needs and then develop a p[lan for meeting tohose needs for each other.
3. Do the LB inventory and eradicate love busters

Your wife should never travel without you overnight again and you should be free to check up on her 24/7

There's a bunch more - read "Surviving an Affair" and "Fall in love, stay in love"

You are also on autopilot now - expect to get very angry about this. Expect your wife to be moody for a while and unhappy. It's a rollercoaster. At the moment you think it's plain sailing but I promise you there will be a [censored] of a road bump along shortly!

The advice to attend a MB weekend is great advice.

Additionally, whilever your wife is thinking that you are putting restrictions on her rather than her doing whatever it takes to ensure she doesn't do this again (a shift from her wayward mindset currently exhibited) you are not in recovery.

Recovery is NOT the absense of an affair.

BigK, great advice. I agree with most, and disagree with some. I'll take what I can, and leave the rest here. We are on a good road to recovery, and she is working her [censored] off to earn my trust and forgiveness. I'm terribly sad that all this has happened, but I'm extremely greatful that there is still much to salvage. The love is still strong, the willingness is still there, and we are both moving forward with strength and grace. I know that the lessons I've learned on this site will help us avoid this from happening in the future, and will help us to have a stronger marriage in the end.

I'm going to put myself out there right now, which is going to leave myself open to a lot of criticism on this forum. But I feel like it's important in order to conveye the struggle I'm going through.

I've been married for only 5 years, and my wife now has had 2 affairs. That is not a good track record. I believe 1 strike is forgivable. 2 strikes is usually reason to leave. And 3 strikes, especially if it happens sometime in the next 5 years, is even to much for me to handle. As much as I love my wife, I recognize there is a terrible pattern here, and I'm still hopeful that this is a pattern which can be broken. If it happens a 3rd time, I will be sure that it can't be broken, and I'll need to move on. I still want to grow old have more kids with her, but I really need to let her know that I will not allow this anymore.

I know that many of you will say to leave her NOW, but I won't accept that. She's my best friend, we're on our way to a great recovery, she's reading all the MB material and building back my "love bank" which she stole from me (as I say). So this is not an option. But, it is a HUGE leap of faith that she will be faithful for me for the rest of our lives. It's a leap I'm willing to take.

I guess my question is, is it possible for someone with such a bad track record to change and be faithful forever? What is the best way of accomplishing that? She wants to change, and she will do whatever it takes.

I'm in the group that believes that anything is possible if you really want it. If your W really wants to change and become a faithful W, and is willing to do the work, why not? I think there are issues either within her or your M that need to be addressed. Keep working to identify what those issues are, and eliminate them.

SS32 if your wife does nt work on herself then it will happen again and again just like the wind blows up her skirt! You will always wonder when its going to happen. If you stay with her get used to sharing your wife with other men pounding her and get regular STD test. Married 5 yrs and 2 affairs and probally more! How long was you married when the first affair that you know about took place?

See my previous posts particularly the bits you don't agree with.

She talks big but still has a wayward mindset.

If you think you are in recovery, be prepared for a lifetime of cheating from her.

I really think you need to allow her between 22.65 and 24.765 strikes before you can be sure that she is incapable of breaking the "pattern". Anything less is, IMO, jumping the gun. She obviously loves you and you should be able to get past a minor series of affairs in relatively short order. Otherwise, you run the risk of being "controlling".
Presumably, she only cheats because her emotional needs are not ebing met and that is all on you.

lol I knew that when I posted that I would get some insensitive responses. Do you really think it's necessary to say "Get used to other men pounding her"? Seriously, dude.

She had the first one after about 3 years of marriage. I actually didn't realize the full extent of it until this last one happened. I honestly didn't think she was capable of a PA, so I didn't even ask. That was my ignorance I guess. Anyway, after getting all the details about this A, I realized she WAS capable of it, so I asked her about the details of the previous one. She didn't have sex with the first guy, but he tried to. Again, he was my best friend. But, if I had known all the details of the first one, and I had gotten the advice from this site, then the second one would have NEVER gotten as far as it did. We would've created the necessary boundaries, and would have been able to avoid her ever becoming emotionally attached to the second guy. I guess I'm just learning the hard way.

That's right. It is all your fault for not preventing her from cheating back then and not taking the proper anti-pounding measures. Poor woman just had no support. How the heck was she supposed to know that cheating was wrong?
That is why I say give her another couple dozen strikes, or so. Anything less would be insensitive.

I'd suggest some learning difficulties as well. But what the hell would I know.

So, how would you define a "wayward mindset", and why do you think she still has one? What defines "recovery" and why do you think I'm not in it? If I'm not in recovery, what am I in?

Denial. You have a serial cheating wife(you know of two affairs-tip of the iceberg IMO). She chose your best friend as a partner(pretty sadistic, wouldn't you agree?). She has had no therapy and has not volunteered for STD testing. She is jerking you around. Will she take a polygraph?

Denial.

Listen to BK, he states the facts, no matter how painful they may be.
This is a marathon, not a sprint SS, please don't rush things.
Tis better to fix it right, than to fix it quick.

Denial about what? I ADMIT she has cheated twice. She IS in therapy now. And she HAS agreed to get tested for STD's. Listen, I'm not stupid. I know she has some SERIOUS issues with faithfulness, and I HAVE told her that her actions are unacceptable and that I will not stick around any longer if she f's up again. But, I also believe it's possible for someone to change if they want to. All I can do is hope that she chooses me and our children instead of the destructive lifestyle she's chosen. I don't know if the information on this site will help us or not, but I know that I want to be with her forever and she has indicated the same, so it's worth one more shot. But, I also know that I don't need her. I am strong enough to fight for our marriage, but I'm also strong enough to leave if it happens again. I have more respect for myself then to stay in an emotionally abusive relationship, and I've told her that. So, trust me, I MAY have been in denial for the last 2 years (since the first A), but I am not in denial today.

This is demonstrably UNTRUE. She has been cheating almost the whole of your marriage - even during the "honeymoon period" She has most certainly NOT focussed on a long and happy life together. This is DENIAL. An affair is NOT respect support and love.


Yet this was her second affair. How did you recover your marriage after her first affair? The patented well followed "head in the sand approach" I suppose. Lack of conversation may have been an issue but the reall issue was she was pulling her pants off for another man and had NO BOUNDARIES.


This was DENIAL. have you called OM'sW BTW?


DENIAL. One time - uh huh. After the first time she cheated, how was she able to decieve you and send naked photos of herself to OM a MONTH after d-day #2????

You have convinced yourself you now have the truth = DENIAL.


Unbelievably HUGE DENIAL.

She has confessed SOME of her affair but I guarantee you there is a whole lot more down the rabbit hole.
How does she know she screwed up bigtime? What have been the consequences for her? I bet she does a GREAT line in waterworks and fauz remorse - she's pretty practiced in it after all. Then you renewed your vows a few weeks after d-day #2??? Are you insane? See this is DENIAL. You are deciding on the steps you see as being necessary for recovery and dragging her along for the ride. But that is all. She is not doing JACK to "fix this". It took my wife around SIX months before I knew she truely got it and understood she had screwed up. You are fooling no one here but yourself.


The important moral here is to be guided by her ACTIONS not what she SAYS.

You have very happily compartmentalised all of this into a 6 week time frame whereas if you REALLY work your butt off, you MIGHT be in a good place in oh... say..... 2 YEARS minimum from now.

So she LIED about the first one??? OMG!! How unusual for a WS to LIE. Yet you are oh ever so willing to believe her now. DENIAL

You know what - ask her to agree to a polygraph to examine her "faithfullness" in this marriage. and go through with it. I will be amazed if there is not a whole raft more facts and maybe even other affairs you do not know about.

DENIAL

Well one, two or three strikes isn't actually the point. If you don't deal with this properly - as you didn't last time - there may be 4, 5 or 6 or.......


And with good reason - she's a SERIAL cheater who cheated in the first DAYS of your marriage. She is a bad risk and is doing nothing other than the bare minimum to keep you appeased and not kicking her to the kerb. However this does not mean there is no hope.


Yet you are not her best friend


Not yet you're not! This is DENIAL.


Bare minimum is what she is doing and not even that.


Well I posted some specifics to you and you blew me off. I already posted what it will take.

This will be your undoing. Everything I posted is good MB advice. What exactly don't you agree with?

You see my friend, I've seen it all in the 4+ years I have been here. Including people who disappear only to return in a year or so saying OMG you were all right how could I be so stupid......

If you are smart you will listen and learn from people who have been there, done that, and have what you want - a great recovered marriage.

One more thing before I go - if you look at my post history you will see that the majority of my posts could be written out double spaced on the back of a postage stamp but for some inexplicable reason I have posted quite a lot to you.

I wonder why!

There's a great way to fix this. Tell her you have to have her take a polygraph. That any marriage will have to be 100% honest hereon. If she refuses, then you have your answer on whether she's sincere.

BK, I appreciate all the time you put into responding. I'll be really frank with you. . . .your advice doesn't help. You assume I'm in Denial because YOU were in denial so long. You assume my wife is lying still because YOUR wife lied to you for 3 years. You assume a lot of things, which just aren't true. My wife has been truthful about everything I've asked her about, and I've confirmed everything independantly of her statements. Where she was dishonest was by not telling me stuff when I didn't ask. And I never knew I had to ask in the past. Now I do. So, the "have her take a polygraph" comments are just annoying.

This forum has provided me with some great (and some not so great) guidance. As it now seems that the comments are less supportive and more projections of your own issues, I don't see a need to use this as a source for advice any longer. I will continue to use the MB resources, and I thank every user who has provided emotional support and constructive criticism. God willing, I will never need to post here again.

DENIAL



And you couldn't be more wrong about my situation.

WHOA, SS...If you think this forum is tough, look out for RECOVERY, my friend...No joke - it's not for wimps!

Listen, I am a FWW myself and I very much agree with the advice to have your wife take a polygraph - What they are telling you is TRUE - WAYWARDS LIE! If their lips are moving they are LYING...SS, if you were truly in recovery, you wouldn't have to ask or need the validation - you would KNOW - there is a shift in dynamic that is unmistakable - It is very much a TEAM EFFORT to protect the marriage and it's very obvious when it happens...

Will your wife post here?

Mrs. W

It's not that I think the forum is to "tough", I just think there's a difference between a support group and a group that laughs at you because they think you're in "denial", redicules you for having any level of trust, attempts to turn you against the marriage you're trying to save, and then insults you if you don't take their advice. Maybe that's the way you long-timers roll. Frankly, I really can't see myself in this forum 5 years down the road ridiculing everyone who is struggling with infidelity, telling them how stupid and gullible they are, and trying to convince them to submit their WS to a polygraph. But, if that's what floats your boat, then so be it. Kindof pathetic if you ask me.

Awww, SS...stick around man...You will eventually see that folks are just trying to look out for you...Most people ARE naive in the early stages - those are just facts...I am a firm believer that you should inspect what you expect...Right now, you can surely see that it would be a fool's mission to place your trust in your wife, right? Look, I'm telling you like it is from the other side of the fence...Trust, but verify...yanno?

And BK? He's not so bad - Mr. W and I know him - he's a good guy, even if he is a Foster's drinkin' Aussie!

Settle in, consider all posts - knowing they do have your best interests in mind...really...

Have you thought more about the MB weekend?

Mrs. W

SS,

Something that I hope you will consider...YOU are the least objective poster on this thread...totally understandable...Others are just trying to have your back!

Mrs. W

So...you are not going to request that your cheating and lying wife take a polygraph test before you take her back? Do I have that right?

Kill the messenger, not the message. Not everyone has...um, shall we say 'tact'? Read PAST the emotion of the posts and absorb the message. Everyone here is in various stages of dealing with a crushing blow. We have different ways of expressing that. Keep reading.
ss

I don't see how you could have any level of trust whatsoever at this point. Your wife is a serial cheater who was busted and did not confess. You know of two affairs, which means , in many cases, there were more that you do not know of.
What, exactly, is the peoblem with a polygraph? She will not object if she is remorseful and truthful. What is the big deal about verifying the statements of a known liar?

Yeah I forgot the sugar coating and don't do sunshine enemas. This guy needs to snap out of it quick.

Replies to this guy have been polite. He has a thin skin when he does not hear what he wants. Strangely, he is not thin skinned as regards his wife's behavior toward him , their kids , and their marriage. He has a lot of tolerance for abuse and gaslighting. Lots of fear, I expect, which is understandable.

SS, here's the deal. The people who post to you have seen a LOT - A LOT - of people just like you come here, frustrated, scared, wanting to give in or to beg just to keep the wayward home or from straying. But the people who post to you KNOW what works and what doesn't. It really IS like a science. This works; that doesn't.

So...we give you the drill. Tell you what works. Commiserate at first and hope you'll man up and fight to save your marriage, despite your fears. But so very often, the BS is TOO SCARED to fight. The WS's ANGER and threats drive everything.

When that happens, the BS has lost control. And will NEVER get the marriage back without fighting the affair. So we gripe. Push. Even intimidate sometimes.

Because we know.

We've seen it all.

And they all act the same. It's called a script for a reason. ALL waywards spout the same crap - no matter how nice they were before they were overtaken by the alien addiction.

Is this a guarantee to get her back? Of course not. But it is THE BEST HOPE YOU HAVE for saving your marriage. And if posters here get under your skin, it's a GOOD BET that there is a REASON why they're getting to you. Best to consider that, and ask yourself what it is about that particular post or poster that bothers you?

Surely it isn't just you're being offended. If that's the truth, well, is that what you do in real life? Leave people who offend you? Leave uncomfortable situations? Or learn from them and improve yourself?

Seeing as I'm already unpopular with you, I'm going to throw this in as well. There are good reasons for you to get a paternity test. (for both your children)