DTeas - You have not given up. That is something you can be proud of. You have the right to give your life Hope. And you have the right to build a life in the future that is one where you can be proud of you. I encourage you to stay on the path you are on. You have a future and no one on this earth knows what it will be, but it will be better by you walking a path you can be proud of. Blessings.

Yeah, doing whats right sucks but it keeps us sane..Be the man/father you always wanted to be and everything else will fall into place even if its not w/ your current WBW..DUDE

@DTeas,

During our darkest hours post-D-Day, FWW accused me of acting like a stalker, and screamed and shouted at me about the keylogger and other ways I kept track of whether she was telling me the truth. Although she occasionally says that remembering that I watch her closely bothers her, she realizes it's necessary for my peace of mind in recovery.

The difference between the first and the second situation was time and my constant attention to her emotional needs.

Your goal right now is to just find enough time to be with her to get her to fall in love with you again. Meet her needs, avoid Love Busters, spend enough time with her, and be radically honest. Those are the four key ingredients for a successful marriage.

She might not fall back in love with you. Those are the breaks, you might have poisoned the well too much to ever drink from it again. But do whatever you can to leverage what time to you have to achieve your objective.

Mark, Barnboy, Dude, and Hurtingturkey:

Thanks for the support. I don't know why I insist on making it so difficult?

I know how to be a good dad..she has admited that I am.

I know how to piss her off, I have proven that... so just do the opposite.

Then drip, drip, drip....I can fill her bucket. But it won't stay filled if I keep busting holes in it.

I have always been smart (Not that you can tell from my threads), so I place too much stock in my ability to analyze and strategize. Love is not analytical, it's emotional, and it is not theoretical but an action verb. I know how to love my kids, I don't analyze whether it's working or whether they appreciate it, or if they think about getting a different Dad sometimes. I just do it because that's the right way to love.

Is loving your spouse really all that different? If I am in it for the quick payback, then it's really not love is it?

Back to work! Digging through the wreckage caused by a bomb dropped on a marriage is dirty work. And it may never be what it once was, but I still have to start brick by brick to see what's left.

I need to banish any thoughts or measuring my progress in the short-term. Any thoughts on when it is ok to spend a few minutes taking stock? Once a month, once every three months, not until the week the Divorce is to be finalized?

Thanks
DT

Don't gauge your progress by her reactions. You are building a new marriage like an island, rock by rock, dumping it into the same spots in her lake of emotions, hoping that you'll see it poke above the surface before you finalize a divorce.

Instead, gauge it by objective measures.

1. How much time did I give her my undivided attention today? Aim for 20+ hours a week. I know it sounds impossible, but if you make that your top priority, you can probably figure out a way to do it. However, her desire to have nothing to do with you might put a cramp in that effort.

2. What emotional needs did I fill for her today? How can I meet those better, or meet her other most important needs tomorrow?

3. What love busters did I engage in against her today? How can I avoid engaging in those sorts of Love Busters tomorrow?

Take it one day at a time. When you review, base your review on what you know of YOUR OWN actions, not hers.

It's the only way I get by sometimes. Things can be going great in our recovery and then something happens and we end up furious at one another. I have to evaluate what I did wrong today, what I did right today, and how I can be better tomorrow.

Become comfortable with the idea that you are probably going to lose her. It seems that, for many of us, the day we realize we'll be OK even without our partner is the day our partner begins to sense the new strength inside of us... making us more attractive and loveable.

And even if or when a divorce goes through, a lot of couples have remarried after a divorce. Don't lose hope until you've really put the time in to be sure you've done all you can do.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5035_qa.html

Can you get your wife on here? I can help!! I promise...I did exactly what she is doing..DUDE

DT,

You don't have to avoid making her angry. The problem isn't her anger. The PROBLEM is that she is not in love with you.

Make her fall in love with you again.

Stop worrying about finding the right solution and...

Meet her Emotional Needs.

Avoid Love Busters.

You don't need to talk to her about what you are doing...

Just DO it! (my apologies to Nike)

Give her a reason to love you again.

Snoop without getting caught to make sure their isn't still OM or anyone else that is meeting her ENs (if there is, then you expose the affair)...

It took you this far into your marriage for it to fall into this kind of disrepair. You aren't going to fix it over night no matter what you do. Think months instead of days.

Come up with a PLAN to meet her ENs. Identify your own Love Busters and kill the suckers dead...

What are her top three or four ENs? What do you think you could do to meet those ENs? If FC is one of her top 5 then being the best Dad you can be will meet that need. If conversation is one of them then at kid exchange time take time to talk to her (Do NOT talk about the relationship!)

The PROBLEM is that she isn't in love with you. Fix THAT first. If you fail to fix that first there will be nothing else left to fix. SAVE your marriage and worry about fixing stuff later. The house is on fire right now! The color to repaint the bedroom is irrelevant!

Put the fire out!

The Love Buster was the affair...YOUR affair. Make it up to her by fixing YOU. You're filling the bucket with a squirt gun and the affair blew the bottom out of the bucket.

Come up with a PLAN.

Work the PLAN.

Stick with the PLAN.

Meet her ENs.

Avoid Love Busters.

Cowboy up!

Git 'er done!

Mark

Mark and Dude:

I get it. I would love to get her on here..I am guessing that will take patience too.

One other thing... What I need for my personal growth would be the same whether she were in my life or not. If I were to lose her tragically today, it wouldn't change my need to grow. My kids still need me to be the best me possible.

Finally, she and I will always be family, always be connected through our kids. Loving her and meeting those ENs wiithout love busting will only make that better.

And maybe, just maybe, she'll love me again and we can work on recovery.


So that's the order I need to think of things. I get so little time with her.So that's time to work on me. When I do get time, I can meet her ENs. And my LBs come from impatience and resentment, so that's back to personal growth. Wow, doesn't sound so hard now

DT

MBers:


Two pieces of advice I would welcome:

1. How can I fill ENs at a distance? We communicate by text and e-mail mostly. We have a few minutes of conversation when we pass the kids off. I look for opportunities to complimente her. I ask about her day, her job, her family and try and keep things light and pleasant. I make sure that she is invited on any plans I have with the kids. Remind her that she can just drop by unannounced, any time if she misses them. When she asks permission to enter the home, I let her know that it's her home and she doesn't need permission. I notice her clothes and tell her she looks nice...
Any obvious actions and gestures I am missing? Touch is off limits still.

2. Any thoughts about how I can introduce her to the Love Busters and EN questionaiires without it coming off as a selfish demand? I was thinking maybe Love Busters first and saying, "If you are comfortable, I'd appreciate your help making sure I'm not doing anything that makes this process harder." Once again, I'd love her input on the questionaires, but really worry about her willingness to complete them.

Thanks
DT

Practice with me: "Will you go out with me?" To the movies, to dinner, to whatever. Time alone together.

Make sure you're meeting her actual needs, not the ones you think she has. If you don't know what her needs are, fill out an Emotional Needs Questionnaire as if you were her. If you're still unsure, try Affection, Conversation, Honesty & Openness, Financial Support, and Family Commitment.


Re-thinking... asking her to do an ENQ may be premature at this point, but if you really want to approach it, be sure and use "I" language. She's in withdrawal (remember the 3 stages of marriage?), so little of what you can do will appeal to her. You must draw her into Conflict -- appeal to her Taker -- to have any hope of getting her cooperation at this point. How could you make it in her own self-interest to fill out an ENQ?

If you stop and think about many questions along those lines -- if I were my wife, what selfish interest would I have in doing this thing I want to ask? -- you'll have better success. But remember, an appeal to her Giver will fall flat on its face. An appeal to her Taker has the best chance right now.

Barnboy:

Thanks.

What do you think about working the LB questionaire first? With the, "I want to stop making this harder on you" approach. her taker would say, "yes you keep making it more painfu'" and "Here is a format where I can tell you had bad you suck."

With the date request, I can't even get her to do stuff with me and the kids. Or is part of the beauty, just in the asking? Even if I am turned down, the sincere request registers just a bit and makes her feel attractive and admired and that maybe I really do just want a nice evening of conversation?

With the ENs.. I have completed it from my 20 years of knowledge. Here are hers in the order I can best deduce:

1. Affection 2. Admiration 3. Converstaion 4. Honesty and Openness 5. Family Commitment.

I am nailing her #5 right now. But her #4 is in the tank. Admiration and conversation I make small deposits every day. #1 has to be totally non-physical. I need help with non-physical affection.

Thanks
DT

OK, a few tips from Love Busters and HNHN. Oh, and I like your idea of presenting her with a Love Busters questionnaire... be ready for "Dishonesty" to be ranked a big, glaring "10" on that worksheet if she decides to fill it out!

You might also be able to persuade her to fill out the EN worksheet if you explain that you are trying to learn how to be a better husband and father... if not to her, then to be a better father to the children, and understanding their emotional needs and hers will help you do that. Might fly, might not... not a recommendation, just a thought.

From Love Busters, Bonus Chapter 16:

"1. Affection. Her husband tells her that he loves her with words, cards, flowers, gifts, and common courtesies. his hugs and kisses are symbols of his willingness to be there for her when she needs him and his deep concern about her welfare. His acts of affection are repeated daily, creating an environment that clearly and repeatedly expresses his love for her."

And, in case you're interested, you CAN meet her EN for Honesty & Openness... and in fact, I think you MUST for this marriage to have a chance.

"3. Honesty and openness. He tells her everything about himself, leaving nothing out that might later surprise her. He describes his positive and negative feelings, events o fhis past, his daily schedule, and his plans for the future. He never leaves her with a false impression and is truthful about his thoughts, feelings, intentions, and behavior."

From "His Needs, Her Needs for Parents", page 40:

"...intimate affection goes much further. It communicates the care needed in a romantic relationship. Studies have shown that one of the quickest ways to make someone fall in love with you is to say you care for them, and then prove it by the way you treat them. That's because intimate affection meets a very important emotional need, especially in women.

"You may express intimate affection in many ways. A greeting card or an "I love you" note, a bouquet of flowers, hugs and holding hands, walks after dinner, back rubs, phone calls, and conversations with thoughtful and loving expressions -- all can communicate intimate affection...

"...So what does this affectionate husband look like?

"An affectionate husband hugs and kisses his wife every morning while still in bed, usually for more than ten minutes, and tells her that he loves her. During their breakfast, he tells her he loves her again. He hugs and kisses her before he leaves for work. He calls her during the morning and again in the afternoon to ask how she is doing and to tell her that he loves her. Sometimes he invites her to go out for lunch, and sometimes they both meet at home for lunch so he can hug and kiss her and tell her that he loves her. After work, he calls before he leaves for home so that she knows when to expect him. When he arrives home, he gives her a hug and a kiss and spends a few minutes talking to her about her day. He helps her with dinner and helps her clean up afterwards. He spends the evening with her, occasionally dancing to romantic music or giving her a back rub. When they go to bed, he usually hugs and kisses her while telling her that he loves her."

A key facet of this is to shut up and listen to her when you ask about her day. If you can just get her talking, you are depositing love units just by listening intently and responding appropriately...

Just Need to Vent..so I can keep on Plan A.

I thought my wife had been very generous to watch the kids the last two Sunday's so I could go to my twelve step meeting.

Tonight I went to my Church DivorceCare ministry (it's cool it focus is on reconciliation not divorce). My wife had a meeting tonight too, so she couldn't watch my kids (almost 14 and almost 10). She and I agreed that I could leave them at home while I was gone for a little over an hour for my meeting. Well I get a text from her before my meeting ends that I need to not go to meeting if they will be left alone because my son was scared. When I got home, my son said that he told Mom he was lonely, and was scared to take a shower until I got home. While I was frustrated, I told her "hey don't worry about it, the kids are more important than my meetings". She did say she was sorry that all the parenting was falling on me. She said she missed the kids and was feeling like a bad mom and was worried I would try and say she was abandoning them. I told her that she is a great mom, and short of them having both of us together, joint custody is the only sensible set-up. But then she made it clear that watching the kids while I attend 12 step on Sundays and divorcecare in Tuesdays was a hassle because it get's her home too late to unwind and get a good night sleep. Sundays, it gets her home at 9:15p and Tuesdays by 8:30p..sheesh! So I told her,"Hey your needs and the Kid's needs are more important than mine, I'll just have to wait to go to my meetings until you have your place and we are switching weeks" .....But we all know I need to be working on myself too!

She tells me she was doing me no favors watching the kids, but that she just missed the kids. She seemed pleased that I was giving up my meetings. I am very disappointed in her. But I kept my disappoint me to myself. I need to process it more before I can practice radical honesty in a healthy way. Better than busting.

I think I will try to line up friends or other family to be with the kids when I go to my meetings, and then I will let her know that these meetings are important to me continuing to grow and become the man I had promised her I would be and a dad her kids can be proud of, and then ask her how she would feel about "friend or family" watching the kids for an hour/ hour and a 1/2 Sundays and Tuesdays (policy of joint agreement?)

Just seems a shame that she is willing to miss that time with the kids. Maybe this is about her needing to feel in control?

DT



I have had them full time for 10 days with her having them about 6-8 hours total during that time