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I keep seeing folks on here refer to some individual counselor or marriage counselor that they plan to use to get them out of their troubles.
Please, people, DO NOT blindly pick an IC or MC who does NOT subscribe to MB principles. This cannot be overstated. If you trust the MB program, your IC and MC must also trust it.
Good way to tell if they are on board: during the first session, ASK them what style they follow (don't mention Harley, see if they do). Ask them for book ideas. And LOOK on their bookshelves.
If you don't see MB stuff, run, don't walk, away.
Many a recovery has been destroyed by bad IC and bad MC. If it was easy, EVERYONE would be doing it.


Me:BW, FWH 1DD 1DS
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Ima,

You are so right and make an excellent point.

Back in the summer, when W and I were going to JC, we went to a woman that was a big Harville Hendrix ("Getting the Love You Want") fan. Of course, she was still immersed with OM at that time, so any in-roads was going to be unlikely. Didn't know about MB back then.....

Now W is doing IC. IC is big into M. Scott Peck ("The Road Less Traveled")

I guess her IC could be into "The Cat in the Hat" at this point. I don't see actions leading her back to the M. Sure, temporarily during the holidays, but it didn't stick.

Yeah, she hasn't filed yet, so maybe IC is working FAR. FAR BETTER than I give it credit for. (Insert heavy dose of sarcasm.)

TB





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This goes for whether you recover your M or not. My first IC after d-day wasted endless time asking me about WXH's family. Fortunately, she was EAP so I wasn't paying for it. After I found MB I asked her if she'd heard of it and she didn't know what I was talking about. I explained that it was geared to help recover marriages and she asked my why I would even want to do that!!! Hello? That's why I was there!!!

Later on, long after I'd tossed in the towel I went to another IC mostly to help with my personal recovery. She had heard of MB and though that wasn't why I was there, she understood that I needed to distance myself from WXH and helped me devise ways to reconstruct my life - not unlike Plan B. Of course I had to pay for her.

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Do the counselors here take insurance?


BW (me) 43
WH 42
DS 17
DD 15
DD 12
D Day 1-Mother's Day '06
D Day 2- 11/29/09
WH moved out 11/30/09
Came home 12/11/09
WH moved out again 1/02/2010
Married 18 years
Plan B
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Originally Posted by lh9541
Do the counselors here take insurance?
I'm not sure the answer, but your question begs another question:
If you were going to a hospital for a deadly brain tumor, and the hospital told you, "Doctor X accepts insurance, but he's not very good, failing 80 percent of the time, and Doctor Y does not accept insurance, but he succeeds 80 percent of the time," which one would you choose.
My point is, whatever the cost, it's cheaper and less painful than the alternative (divorce).


Me:BW, FWH 1DD 1DS
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I counseled with Dr. Harley. He is a very insightful and knowledgeable man.

Word of caution...Dr. Harley is a "marriage" counselor. If you are in Plan D I suggest you look for counseling elsewhere.


3-DDays, 4-OMs*, Plan-D May 9, 2009, final Dec 2010 (FREEDOM!)
Custody of DDs / new job(s) / "I'm alive...and well"
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Our 1st MC fell asleep infront of us. We still laugh about it! LOL! I am not kidding, we were getting into an arguement and I don't know how much time past and we looked up and his eyes were closed and he literally had some saliva in the corner of his mouth. I said, "Are you with us?" He startled and appologized said he hadn't been home in over 24 hrs. Charged us 1/2. That was the first and last with him.

Oh, I guess not. Our first was a priest who had a PhD in psychology. Very good. Told us to spend more time together, for me to listen, for her to stay calm and walk away.

3rd was a feminist out of her 2nd M. Nice, but said that W needed IC. So in 18 mos of every Fri. out of pocket we got no where with SF and conflict resolution. I went to the last one (on my b-day). They didn't talk 1 time in 18 mo about SF, can you believe that? That was one of our biggest problems.

4th was a pastor who had the same M problems... NEXT!

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I guess we were lucky. We found a MC who is VERY PRO MARRIAGE, believe it or not. He meets with us as a couple, never individually . I've never asked if he is familiar with Dr. Harley, but his approach seems to be the same. He won't even discuss the D word. We started with him while the EA was still going on, and he helped convince FWW that no contact was required before we moved forward.

Most of our discussions with him are centered around ENs and avoiding LBs. So far, he's been a tremendous help. He has helped me to understand why the EA happened, and he has helped FWW to understand that she was just as much at fault for our issue because she was not taking care of my ENs. He threw her 'it's his fault I had an affair because . . .' argument out very quickly.

I'll take a look at his bookshelf at our next meeting.


Me: BH 60 - Married 21 years
ExW had an EA beginning 09/09 (Facebook)
After a few false recoveries, I filed for D 05/11
D final 03/12

'Be Mindful of Your Many Blessings and Endeavor Daily to be Worthy of Them'
Jay Severin

'Life is a gift and it offers each of us the privilege, the opportunity and the responsibility to give something back by becoming something more'
Tony Robbins
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When looking for a MC, come right out & ask if they are familiar w MB & Dr. Harley's practices? How do you check b4 seeing them? Does anyone know of any MCs in IL that practice MB philosophies?

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We have a friend who is a psychologist, or I should say it's my W friend and a sore spot for me.

She actually counseled my BIL. He is an A, and she is ok with it and he even brought OW with him. He has uh um... performance issues and his STBX W is a nympho (yes, and he can't perform enough and she has been faithful to him, but her top EN is SF and that's their issue). His STBX is 54, he is 42 and dating a 23 yr old, and doesn't have SF with her enough either and that is why his AP went with him to see our "friend" or my wife's friend. She actually told him they need to be doing it and more often. Can you believe it? I laughed my a$$ off and still chuckle about it.

I think his issue is that it's not special any more as he's had more than 250 partners, yes he is very charming, rough etc. what most women fall all over themselves for, but he couldn't commit to death after he's 6 foot under. He can't tie his shoes without having an anxiety attack about if he's doing the right thing. That family of hers has no moral boundary and is only me, me, me, me with a mom who is a psychologist who gives people wayward encouragement.

What is it with cykollojists any way. Are they only look for people to like them?

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I think most of us have been conditioned to believe that "counseling" is the solution to personal and marital problems, but that is just a feel good urban MYTH. These people can be profoundly destructive to marriages and are often little more than divorce facilitators.

Marriage counseling has an 84% FAILURE RATE and often causes more problems than it solves. They can be especially dangerous when an affair is involved because traditional counseling is FEELING BASED so the counselor, who doesn't even begin to comprehend the fogged out temporary mindset of the wayward, helps the couple make life changing decisions based on a very temporary state of mind.

And keep in mind that the GOAL is not necessarily to save the marriage at all. The "goal" is whatever each person professes it to be. So one side may have a goal of saving the marriage but if the other wants to just end it based on a temporary addiction, the MC will help do that while "helping" the BS adjust.

That can be disasterous to a marriage. Instead of selling the WS on the future of a good marriage, rather, they help them achieve the object of their CURRENT AFFECTION, ie: a "separation to think about things" [aka the freedom to carry on my affair] So, now the WW has a destructive path that is endorsed by a COUNSELOR and the marriage is really doomed.

That would be like a counselor telling a heroin addict to go hang out in heroin houses for awhile to think about things instead of pushing him into treatment for his addiction.

The reason that I tell people in affairs to call Steve Harley and don't waste your time anywhere else, is because, from all reports, he sees right through bullcrap and won't hesitate to confront it. He is pro marriage and understands the dynamics of adultery.

From my experience, I think folks would be better off getting a pedicure than going to a traditional marriage counselor.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Hmmm...we went to one about 12 years ago but it was brief and though I had no idea what MB was back then, within 4 months, he had us back on track. We had just relocated and were out of sorts. He helped us be on the same team again.

We should have gone back to him when we really needed help. Over the next few years we saw:

1. A guy who H saw individually who KNEW about his EA the entire time and never said anything.
2. A guy who fell asleep during counseling. And was a "Life Coach" in his day job. Let me tell you how much I respect those people..NOT
3. A guy who told me that I needed to "get over" the EA or we'd never get anywhere. I had just discovered this website during our last few sessions with him and asked him about Marriage Builders. He'd never heard of it.

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LOL, Melody is right. Better to spend your money on a nice pedicure.

I thought the Harley counseling was too expensive. Instead we went to a highly recommended marriage counselor. My WH denied having an affair, and the counselor didn't press the issue. Instead she advised ME to see a doctor to get checked for mental issues - my paranoia, sense that something was wrong, etc.

Got cleared by the doc and we continued counseling for 6 months. Could have had 12 pedicures and 12 massages and still would have saved money.

I think there are probably some marriage counselors who might do okay. But the caveat is if they try to fix the marriage while there is an ongoing affair. Or if they don't zero in on the fact that there may be an affair.

Yes, both spouses are responsible for the condition of a marriage, but once there is an affair, THAT is what has to be addressed.

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At the end of my 1st marriage, my XWW reluctantly agreed to MC. During our 1 and only session, my W went into an H bashing. Afterward the "councelor" looked at me and said "this is the most lop sided marriage I have ever seen". This was even before I even had a chance to speak. I wish that I had filed a complaint against the b!#*%.

My wife and I went to 3 sessions a few months ago, and this one was into something called the "SELF". The whole ego, and id thing I guess. She obviously does not belive in God, and we decided this was not for us.

She also had us fill out some questionaires about our childhood, which Dr. H. says is a waste of time. I tend to agree.

I told this "counselor" my opinion about how a married couple should be on one spirit, and one body. I said that my wife's body belongs to me, no more, no less than mine belongs to her.

This counselor looked me in the eye, and said "no one owns another person". .....not even close to the point I was trying to make.

It's amazing how people can actually get paid for being so stupid.


ME: BS (50)
DW: WS (38)
M: 9 1/2
A started 1-13-09
D-Day 1-20-09
D-Day (finally admitted having sex) 10-08-09
A ended NC 1-22-09
DSs (26 19)
DDs (23 15 12)
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When I went to IC's when I was younger and had stopped drinking, they were very much into lowering the bar to make my bad behavior acceptable by "compartmentalizing." Compartmentalization revolved around stuffing down feelings of GUILT. So rather than change the behavior that made me feel guilty, the idea was to change the STANDARD to accommodate my bad behavior. ["hey, don't listen to that screaming conscience!!"]

I also spent mucho time bloviating about my childhood which kept me triggered and angry for years.

It probably caused new holes in the ozone from all that bloviating. I should be charged millions in carbon emission credits!

I got more out of a month of AA meetings, which was all about changing behaviors, than I did from years of yapping to a counselor about my feelings. In AA, they don't want to hear your crap! They told me, listen, you need to just shut up and listen; the only thing you know how to do is screw up your life! Who wants to hear that? rotflmao


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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This is off topic but...

Did you watch PBS last night "Emotional Life". It was excellent as it explored ...

Quote
Emotional Life
This three-part series explores ways to improve social relationships, learn to cope with depression and anxiety and become more positive, resilient individuals. Harvard professor Daniel Gilbert, author of Stumbling on Happiness, hosts. http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/series


They had psychologist discuss this new therapy that focuses on a persons strengths instead of weaknesses. The section on a persons resilience was fascinating as real people who survived traumatic experience were interviewed. And they included scientific findings.

I was fortunate to have MC that actually helped my us improve communications 100%. She also would have worked on Harley's principles had we asked for it. I wasn't aware of it at the time. I think there a few good IC/MC out there but they are far and few. It's like the show last night stated - there are self help books - many good and many bad. Many of the self-help books are not based on scientific proven methods and written by people without the credentials to write about the topic.

Gg

Last edited by gg615; 01/07/10 09:29 PM.

D-Day #1 Aug/2007.
D-Day #2 1/27/12
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I wanted to mention that MANY counselor's will poo-poo any mention of "finding something you like on the internet". Be prepared to be smuggly ridiculed for thinking you can find anything on the internet of value.

Hint: The internet is a large threat to their way of life which must be combatted with prejudice. They do NOT want word of mouth to get around that you don't need to waste hours sitting on their couch picking at your navel (past wounds).

A good marriage counselor should be aware of the MB principles and happy to work with you, in conjunction with the materials available here and in the MB books.

For the best interpretation of the MB principles...the MB counselors would be the best choice but getting your spouse out alone together in a counselor's office is sometimes the only chance you'll get to instill/apply these principles. Many a Wayward would poo-poo telephone counselling.

Mr. Poo-Poo (had to say it again)


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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What stinks!???? sick

[Linked Image from i39.photobucket.com]


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by imanotherone
I keep seeing folks on here refer to some individual counselor or marriage counselor that they plan to use to get them out of their troubles.
Please, people, DO NOT blindly pick an IC or MC who does NOT subscribe to MB principles. This cannot be overstated. If you trust the MB program, your IC and MC must also trust it.
Good way to tell if they are on board: during the first session, ASK them what style they follow (don't mention Harley, see if they do). Ask them for book ideas. And LOOK on their bookshelves.
If you don't see MB stuff, run, don't walk, away.
Many a recovery has been destroyed by bad IC and bad MC. If it was easy, EVERYONE would be doing it.

What is the source of this information re success rates?

Perhaps a reference to the studies would help convince folks.

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Here ya go:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
5outof6aintbad:

When I found that the model I've developed had helped over 90% of those I was counseling, I gave up my career as a college professor and started counseling full-time. At the time, I didn't assume that it would save all of the marriages it seemed to help, because I felt there were factors beyond a couple's control. But after 35 years of experience with this model, I'm not convinced that it works with 100% of couples who follow it. I've yet to witness one couple out of the tens of thousands I've seen, that did not experience a healthy and happy marriage by following this model. Personally, I feel it's the only answer to the question, how can a couple have a great marriage for life?

But it's very difficult to prove that one model of marital satisfaction is superior to another. The ultimate test is to randomly assign couples to various models and to measure their marital satisfaction after the provisions of each model have been implemented.

The training of therapists is a huge problem: How can we be sure that the therapist assigned to each model was properly trained? And there's also the problem of representation and random assignment: Does the group of volunteer couples represent the population at large? And is the assignment to treatment groups really random? There's also the ethical problem of assigning couples to a control group where they receive no effective treatment. When they divorce, does the researcher bear any responsibility? Finally, if someone who has a stake in the outcome does the research, it usually shows that their approach is best. Shouldn't studies of alternative models of marital satisfaction be conducted by those neutral to the outcome?

My own personal experience led me to the model I've been using for the past 35 years. But that's not proof of it's superiority over other models. What I need is objective studies conducted by those who have no bias that compare this model to others. That's hard to find even among those who have published hundreds of articles on martial therapy.

But I can direct you to three studies that support my enthusiasm. They all deal with my book, His Needs, Her Needs, the popular application of my model, and the effect it has on couples that read it.

The readers of Marriage Partnership Magazine were asked which self-help book on marriage helped their marriages the most. In that survey, His Needs, Her Needs came out on top. I didn't know that the survey was even being conducted, so when I called the editor after the results came in, I was curious to know more. He told me that it not only was the top choice, but it was far ahead of second place (Ron R. Lee. Best Books for a Better Marriage: Reader's Survey . Marriage Partnership Magazine, Spring 1998).

In a national survey that I sponsored, people were asked if any self-help book on marriage solved their marital problems. Out of 57 books that were read, only three were reported to have actually solved marital problems. The three were the Bible, James Dobson's Love for a Lifetime, and His Needs, Her Needs (Lynn Hanacek Gravel. Americans and Marriage: National Survey of US Adults. Barna Research Group, 2001).

Finally, five out of six couples that read His Needs Her Needs were found to experience significant improvement in marital satisfaction (Julie D. Braswell. The Impact of Reading a Self-Help Book on the Topic of Gender Differences on One's Perceived Quality of Marriage. Doctoral Dissertation, 1998, Azusa Pacific University.

Granted, these findings are not conclusive evidence that the model I use is superior to every other model of marital satisfaction. But when you find one that works for every couple that actually follows it, you have to be impressed. And coming as I did from almost zero effectiveness to almost complete success, I can't begin to tell you how convinced I am that it's the solution to a very difficult problem we face in our society.

I hope this helps answer your question.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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