He doesn't want to separate. The question about if he stopped drinking is hard to answer. He has stopped drinking for spurts and even longer terms before. If he chose to get outside accountability, I think that would make a difference to me. I am trying to keep an open mind. My path looks obvious to me today, and if a different path was called for, I think I could expect that to be obvious, too, not a subtle change. H has two siblings that went to AA only after their marriages dissolved beyond repair. I'm not like some hardened witch or something, I'm at a lot more risk of erring on the side of jumping back in to soon than I would be to err on the side of being overly cautious.

*hugs*

Happy New Year, Ears! May 2010 bring you clarity and peace and happiness.

Thanks, Jayne, Happy New Year to you, too

NED, I would advise STARTING A NEW YEAR WITHOUT THE ALCOHOLIC HUSBAND!

Get your courage up and GO! Live a wonderful and fulfilling life MINUS THE ALCOHOLIC MILLSTONE!

Bubbles, that's what I love about this place, that it gets me thinking, are my actions reflecting my values, today? I can tell you, this week posting, I've been way more O&H, and it feels great! I don't feel afraid that H won't be okay financially if I move forward now. He's flush with savings, and he'll be okay. The kids and I will be okay. Those fears don't fit today anymore.

I feel happy you are coming to some healthy conclusions.

I say also: When you decide YOUR life and the LIVES of your children ARE MORE IMPORTANT than enabling this alcoholic....

THEN, YOU WILL LEAVE HIM!

I feel like you have all the tools you need to leave him NOW. You do not need to support him financially or in any other way. In fact, supporting an alcoholic is never good for them. They need to work, support themselves emotionally and financially and in every other way. Or else they will not grow, change, or learn new heatlhy behaviors.

DO YOU WANT TO BE THE CAUSE OF YOUR HUSBAND NOT BECOMING HEALTHY?????

HI Stella, this is someone who always worked, until last year, it took a lot of folks more time than usual to find a job in this economy, The good news is, he does have a consulting assignment, starting Monday, in his specialty. And it even turned out to be something local And it's just a matter of time before he finds something permanent.

I like how it's described in that When To Call It Quits article. A separation, and then living apart while the changes are established. Because there's that natural draw to call the problems OVER too soon.

I can't believe that we were able to do this "relationship talk" thing this last week, to really open up and understand each other, even when we don't agree.

The part I disagree, though, Stella, is about being the cause of my H not becoming healthy. I like the 3 C's I learned in Alanon - I didn't Cause it, can't Control it, can't Cure it. Just like if someone had a medical illness, it's between them and their doctor what they will to do to get back to health.

Thanks for teaching me about the THREE C'S!

I never realized that. True, so true.

jayne, is this what you mean on the taxes thing? Your H wants to do the taxes, and he wants certain forms from you, and he's making a thoughtful request instead of an SD. Which is great, but you're still not enthusiastic. So y'all aren't LBing each other, but you aren't at the solution you both like yet, either? Maybe still in the brainstorming phase?

Or was it just an example, not something you *are* brainstorming today. Especially seeing as how it's only January

It would've been better to ask you on your thread, huh?

lol It's your thread, if you wanna T'J your own thread to talk about me, go ahead!

Somewhere on someone else's thread, I mention it as an example of how it does *not* make sense to label something an LB just because you don't like it.

For example: I hate paperwork. My H is already getting together the papers to submit our taxes, and has started asking me for such. I could label that an LB. But what good would that do me? Would it even be fair? I don't think so.

I may not like that activity of H's, but I shouldn't label it an LB. If I truly don't want to participate in doing the taxes (taking this to a ridiculous extreme) then we could POJA something - maybe I would have to admit it is necessary and so I could become enthusiastic about it if he would make his requests at a time when I'm not busy doing something else, for instance.

The other day (you'll understand this, others may not) I was doing the Tools stuff: watching the video, listening to the podcast and doing the reading. I had already been interrupted several times by the kids. My little anal retentive self compelled me to start over every time I was interrupted. It had been a couple of hours and I was still working on a 10 minute video and 8 minute podcast (approximate times IIRC). That was when H came in to let me know he figures we should get a sizable refund this year. YAY for DH! So I asked if we would get the refund sooner if he filed early and he said yes. I think asked if he was working on filing early, and he said yes. DOUBLE YAY for DH!!!

At which point he started talking about the papers he needed me to find... which led to me starting to stress about several things from work... which led me to stress about needing a table... and hence the whole screwing-nuts-and-bolting thread... and then all of a sudden I realized this had become a big enough interruption that I was gonna feel compelled to start at the beginning of the video *again*...

So I could claim he LBed, maybe classified under AH.

But it would be more fair, more accurate, and better for my M (and my financial health, and my freedom from imprisonment...) to appreciate the good that DH does; and maybe share that I'm now feeling frustrated and stressed when I was trying to have a quiet time; and then go walk the dog.

So, this was just an example, not something I was brainstorming. DH is wonderful for what he's doing with the paperwork, and I thank my lucky stars that (a) he's willing to do it so I don't have to (or at least I only have to provide minimum paperwork), and (b) he hasn't left me yet over my lack of organizational skills.

Instead of seeming to pick apart someone else's actions, I used an example from my own life, showing an ill-advised approach I was cautioning against, vs. a better approach.

This is where I think that POJA can sometimes be taken as an AH on both sides. Say it's like this, dh always wants to file early and get the money from the tax return. You want to wait until the deadline because its a pain in the rear to gather all the paperwork.

For the record, I'm the early filer and dh is often late. Drives me a little buggy at times.

It isn't that I *want* to file late...

... it's just that it's sooooooo haaaarrrrddddd to find all those papers!

One time I went... 5 years I think it was... without filing taxes.

Granted, they owed me money, not the other way around, so they hadn't come after me yet...

But it was gonna be so veeeerrryyy complicated... including two different countries of residence and income... Way more than my feeble little brain could handle...

That was about the time I met then-future DH. Just in time for him to save me from prison!

P.S. - I just remember, on some thread - prolly not my own cus I don't think I've posted there lately! - someone asked about the possibility of my IBing and signing us up for an MB weekend.

I was gonna reply by linking to that article where Dr. Harley tells about him buying a marriage improvement program and taking it home to his W. It backfired.

Nope, an IB is an IB is an IB, even if it's to do an MB-sanctioned activity. Just like an SD is an SD is an SD, even if the demand is to do some MB activity.

Those things should be Thoughtful Requests, Respectful Negotiations, POJA, etc.

IOW:

Even MB can be an LB if it's an IB. Or an SD.

That's kinda catchy:

Even MB can be an LB if it's an IB. lol

Jayne, Happy, that's an interesting idea, that someone could choose to view a thoughtful request, towards a goal the two folks share (staying out of jail LOL), as an AH or an LB. I think this can be one of the easier things to find some balance on. "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh words stirs up anger." Proverbs 15:1 Like our kids, for example, can ask us for dozens of things a day, yet we're happy to do it for them

One would think that... but once someone labels something as an LB, I often see them make that their "line in the sand" even if the LB isn't of the AO or SD type.

So, Jayne...I saw you propositioning on MB...



Great job.

And of course, I wanted to add to your perfect posts...

When we identify our spouse's LBs...we first need to check each one for our part...for WHY they are LBs...our responsibility to know...and sometimes, we find out, because they hit our base fears...from mother, father, siblings...that if he does this, then he means that...and it's over...or I'm unloved...or used...or unworthy.

Whatever it is...take your interruptions. Could you do the belief trail with it?

You're working from home and home keeps interrupting. You set yourself to accomplish a task (the video only, for simplicity)...and you put your work hat on (along with the personality, focus, self-psyching desire, etc...whole 'nother kettle of stuff, eh?)...but you're not really at work, to the rest of the visible world, and it's just a video, and others come in to get your attention away.

Okay...when you have to repeat tasks, do you feel failure...any crosswires going on...if you had to re-read paragraphs in school three times, then you're an idiot--if you had to be told new information more than once, you're stupid...anything of those things going on?

Still struggle with success/failure (which is such a sneaky all or nothing, btw)...inside your own head? Like eliminating DJs, eliminating the measuring which flourished in DJs and when those are removed, is actually found to be a cause, not just an affect? So the interrupting, not respecting space, isn't the real LB...you're hitting deeper ones in you...

Just messing around here...find your own trail before declaring what's the LB for you. For instance, if you stated to everyone, "Jayner's time...I'm going to need one solid hour to accomplish something important to me, without interruption. And after that hour, I want to have an hour of hubby time...followed by an hour of twins time. How can I get what I want?"

Big Jayner's smile...asking for the family/spouse input...not a demand...a game of respect...

Declaring what you want, how long you want it for, and then holding yourself to it (so you don't get that hour and then think of something you needed done and break and tell the boys or hubby)...

isn't taboo or bad...it's radical honesty.

Btw, one of mine is the all or nothing when DH doesn't answer his cell phone. Not reasonable...has my part in it..."Doesn't care about, want to talk to me, I'm a pain in the tushie, such a drag, I'd ignore me, too." Instead of taking a dollop out of my LoveBank when he doesn't answer, I swipe a gallon that way.

Doesn't change him not answering takes the dollop...is an LB. And I remind four times a year and he gets better at it and worse. His own cycle, not really about me...

And I think when we make our LBs without our part, then we are making them from fear, not love, so we are asking our spouses to manage our fear levels...instead of thrive.

NED...so what's the separation plan in detail? I would love to know...

LA

Jayne, I know the difficulty of finding tax paperwork. I finally found a solution. I have a box, like the size of a "ream of paper box" (you could get a larger box too) and I keep it in the closet all year. Then, when any kind of bill, reciept, or tax paperwork or insurance paper comes into the home, anything I can deduct, I place it immediately in the TAX BOX. By the end of the year, everything is in there.

It makes it a lot easier at tax time.

LA, I loved what you said, about looking at our side, how can we brainstorm something new, stop adding to that dollop.

H and I have an appointment to go to the lawyer's office the 22nd, to put the separation agreement together. I would like lots of time with the kids and a stable schedule for them, to stay in the house, and a set amount monthly. Okay, what I really would like is for H to call the Harleys, so I keep reminding myself to let go of others' choices and stop thinking I could know better than them what's best for them, to remember the only life I am to run is my own. H would like 50-50 custody, and I think I would be willing to give that a shot. He feels entitled to the house, because I am the one acting to separate. If we can't work something out on the house, I can live with that, too. I'll let you know when we get to POJA on the plan.

H has been true to his word, about making real effort to replace his condescending actions towards me. We've done this before, too. I know it's something folks overcome every day. So I have had a few moments of second-guessing myself, am I acting too soon? So I pray on it, asking for an open heart.

And like you talked about, minding my own boundaries, too, to keep from turning dollops into gallons myself. I still catch myself doing that, too, that automatic DJ, "He didn't answer because he thinks I'm a buzz-kill.""He cancelled our date because he hates me." This is so universal that FlyLady addresses this in her first week of babysteps, I even think it's like Day 2, to catch your self-talk, and ask the negatives if they're true. They're often not.

If I ask H later, maybe he was on the phone already when I called, and the person on the phone needed his attention, while he knew I was okay, would catch up later. And he cancelled the date because he felt alone with no team member, and was so angry he didn't heel like going on a date. DD13 had an essay due next month to compete for a scholarship to a private school here. He asked her to do it Saturday, and asked me to remind her, and she didn't get it done and I hadn't seen to it that she finished. So he felt that if we'd gone on date night, that we wouldn't understand that this was a big let down for him. About communicating, not about hating. So, where to from there? We apologized, and made amends by getting it done that evening. I shared my O&H about feeling disappointed, let it go, and didn't stew up a pot of resentment.

{{{NED}}}

Ned, have you thought about your own integrity? Did you agree to remind your D about the assignment and then you fell down on the follow through, and what that says about your own integrity?

I'm not saying you don't have it.

I'm reading a book now called The Speed of Trust, and this is one of the things it talks about, about holding yourself accountable for your own commitments, about being strong on follow-through or else others won't trust you. And you won't be able to trust yourself.

Better to say, "no can do," than to make a commitment you do not intend to or will not keep. At least then you are seen as trustworthy.