I'm going to look up the Cupid Shuffle. Sounds fun.

Keep dancing. Kudos on the non-projection and being good with the choices you make, Neddy. Great awareness on your own stuff (embarrassed, afraid of criticism, bringing on the mockery)...and knowing he didn't do that.

Notice the absence as well as the presence...you're doing great.

LA

I you tubed it, here's what I found

We have our meeting with the lawyer Friday, to put together the separation agreement. I'm glad that he is on board with this, but he's having some second thoughts, too. H has said a few times, no marriage is ever perfect, you're looking for something that doesn't exist. And how about when you did ABC and I overlooked that.

I'd put together a Plan B a year ago, and revised it last month month, when it was rougher between us, and got some feedback. I was planning to give it to H later, when he was leaving. But somehow he still sounds like I'm nuts to want to separate, so I thought, I can't control his response or get him to agree that I make sense, but here I have a letter that I think is pretty clear.


I felt a relief when I hit Send. The phone calls stopped. I put it all out there, nothing left to try to say better or differently or if I just try harder or something different.

Love it.

Ned,

Let us know how you do today. You missed removing one name, btw, in your previous post (even after you edited to remove another occurrence).

I don't see the way back, if this is your Plan B. I see him seeking out a counselor...not for how long, how many sessions...more specific paving stones, I guess. I know you sent it.

I know that when he said you do ABC and he overlooks that is the moment to say with fervor..."Oh, DH...that's just it. Overlooking isn't working through, negotiating or amending. Overlooking is part of why I do not feel cherished."



Mind twister, that one.

He has a very valid point, Ned. You cannot have a marriage without LBs...they are going to happen...once a year...twice a year...once every five years...it's what you do as a team when they do happen, what's the repair, and if once a year is unendurable or not...or once a day, a week...find the goals, Ned. Clarity...

Does this mean you will have an intermediary, go very dark, until what? When? What boundary enforcement number are you on right now?

LA

Today went really well. The lawyer said they see just one spouse. I was surprised, because my friend had one lawyer to review the paperwork for both of them. But it worked out for the best. I had a private space to ask all my questions.

LA, I understand what you're saying that, I wasn't specific about the path back. And I know when we really want something, so much we can taste it, that it's very clear what that looks like. I have had this letter for some time, have made some revisions over time. At one point, I wanted to ask H to work a 12 step program with a sponsor. So the drinking wouldn't get in the way of our lives anymore. But who knows? That's always been the pattern, if just this one thing changed, then it would all be okay. What do I know? Why lay out some plan, some steps to walk, if I'm not sure anymore I can still go back?

Maybe I've reached a point of no return, or maybe that's just what folks brains tell themselves in these situations, as a protective mechanism. I've heard others say what they need is space, and I know how false that rings in my ears when I've heard folks say that. So I wouldn't say such a hurtful thing thing to him.


This I can do, LA, thanks.

That makes sense, that LBs, happen, it's how we handle it. How we handle it, is that I'm despised again. It feels oppressive. Even Christmas Day, I asked H not to put me down in front of my family when we went to my brother's house, and he did. And I said, H, you promised me not to do this today, we talked about it this morning. And he rolled his eyes, laughed me off. When he knows how much I want to make amends for all the spew my family saw from us before, by being kind to each other when we're with them now. I've got to remember, I can only control my own behavior, and let his stuff go.

I am not planning on an intermediary, in the When To Call It Quits newsletter, it suggests an intermediary in cases of infidelity, but that one is not needed is some other cases. I'm not today planning on going very dark, but I'll keep an open mind. I was thinking more along the lines of letting it die a natural death. I picture it as we'd have less and less to discuss together, until we can coordinate the kids mostly through email or something like that.

LA, do you know what I keep coming back to? At one point, your H told you, he knew his path back to happiness was with you. That makes so much sense. I believed that in my life for a long time, that my path back to happiness was with my H. Believed to my core. And now, I think that I have learned what I was meant to from that, done what I was to do there, and now I can keep moving on this path, but no longer holding onto this relationship. I hope that makes sense.

LA, I also meant "kept" coming back to. The way that thought rippled in me, so true I felt it in my bones, gave me a lot of strength to keep fighting for my marriage, for years. Thanks for sharing that with me when you did. I think I was supposed to fight for my marriage as long and as hard as I did.

I talked to my mom this afternoon. I'd waited, because I had feared that she'd see me as a failure. She never says a bad word about H, so I wondered if she would think I was making a huge mistake, the way my Dad had told me last year. I was so wrong. She is really proud of me. She admires H how close he is with the kids, but she didn't want to see me living like that, taking on criticism the way I did. She told me today that she'd never thought that I would be able to do this.

I'd love an update, Neddy...

I thought your ultimate goal was to know you'd done everything possible for your marriage, and after you'd done that, you could leave with a clean slate...and I saw you take the time, kept coming back, working it, and succeeding in transforming the marriage...putting in a lot of time before your H chose to really start, and so, he just couldn't catch up.

Rather, didn't.

I don't agree with the marriage fading away...that's wishfulness, not awareness. If your goal is the same as I thought, then timely deadlines...end points...I think need to be put into place. O&H doesn't stop being your boundary...no longer to meet an EN in your marriage...to be who you really are.

And I'd like you to make another goal of not taking on criticism, as your mother said, the way you did. I think you knew you were capable of separating, ending your marriage, and chose not to all these years.

I think your mother was projecting. Just my opinion. We do that.



Just wanted to ask you...you know you'd asked H to not do something he had in the past, and he agreed not to do it. Then he did it. Do you believe you spoke to him like a partner? Did you really know he knew how important it was to you? Because he did. And what he did had nothing to do with you...and affected you greatly.

In a way, we set ourselves up...we do everything to try to control an outcome, to have a different outcome...and we see the results the same and despair. I think you've gotten to the end of the process, where it's time you choose your results and let go the outcome.

And I think it was the final LB for your H to do. I think him doing that got to your last boundary. I think you've had to shut out some love deposits since then...reliving that remark...made over a month ago...several times...as proof you were right to do what did, keep your promise and separate.

And that's okay...being aware of what you're doing, why you're doing it, how it ripples is your responsibility, inherently. 24/7. Doesn't stop. What you want to remember is how you acted like a mother to him when he did what you had forbidden him to do. Came from deep core hurt in you...I think your words came from the belief that he still doesn't get how important, how much he hurts you with his choices.

That's your disbelief you haven't broken yourself free of.

He knew. He did it anyway. His own self-destruction, self-sabotage was at work...about him, from his own stuff. Not you, Neddy. His self-sabotage harms the marriage...his remark attacked the marriage again. His half is anchored to his choices...so when he goes to strike at himself, the marriage hurts.

How you doing with the emotional separation?

LA

Yes, LA, this was, is my goal. I was afraid of "leaving a day before the miracle." It helped me being here, learning through posters like Seabird and dkd that I'm just one person, that if I make a misstep, that if it was a day indeed a day before the miracle, that the growth happens, anyway, and that it's obvious in a huge way.


I think it came down to, we had different values. Some of the changes H likes, too, like the UA and FC time, and others, he still dislikes very much, like POJA, feels stifling to him. Dr. Harley explains that many folks think that way at first, and addresses how POJA protects both people.

I don't think of it as he didn't catch up. He is making significant growth in areas that are important to him. He's taking care of his health in new ways, like exercising and going to physical therapy for his arthritis. If he chose POJA as his goal, he may do great with that, too.


It felt wishful as I typed it, recognize that this is a response that it's time to let go of, too. Boundaries without actions are just that, wishes. Like you had touched on in your last post, what boundary enforcement number am I on, what am I willing to enforce. So I am thinking this through. I had been concerned about finances if I moved on this now. Talking to the lawyer, seeing it on paper, reinforces to me that H would still be in good shape without my income. He has significant savings built back up, and he'll be earning these three months, January to March, half of what I'll make this year. And there would be a ton of options, including me helping out, if the situation changed for him.


I agree here, LA, that it wasn't that I was ever unable. My goal was to do what was in my power to recover our marriage. She may have been projecting. I know in that moment that I felt myself in her shoes, doing for myself and my kids what she had tried to do for us years ago. She had tried to leave, twice, from a physically abusive marriage, but didn't have the support that we have today, with four young kids to try to care for, watching out behind her back when she left work.


When we talked, my goal was to partner, not to parent, or control, but I see where I lost that. Thanksgiving with the extended family was so healing to me, we had a kind, gentle day, and I felt so validated, that maybe we can do this, work as partners together.

And then Christmas, it was a small thing, really, I had slammed my thumb in a car door a few weeks before, and I was showing my sister that it was healing, the nail hadn't fallen off. And then H laughs, is she still talking about that thing?! She even went to the doctor, and they said "You didn't have to come here for this." It wasn't even true, I went to the doctor, and they sent me to a specialist, and they x-rayed it, it was only a small fracture, only needed a splint, and drained the swelling from under the nail. I know my family doesn't see me as a hysterical hypochondriac, and that H doesn't see me that way, either, he may have thought it would be a funny remark to make.

But it touched a deep scar in me, because my stepfather used to do that, discredit me piece by piece, laughing, on good days, so that I was afraid to go to my mom when I had serious concerns.



I hear you, I would have liked for my new programming to catch me in that moment, "ouch" and move on. And it usually does.


LA, wow, this is hard to get my head around. The words, in order, make sense, and they fit the patterns we have, but it's hard to understand, how he says he wants this marriage, when he knows these patterns hurt. From a distance, I can see patterns of self-sabotage - fear in calling connections at the companies he's applying to, because while he did good work for these folks at other companies, they may remember other things, too. So he sticks to clean slates instead, sending the resume and not calling to follow up. The self-sabotage in walking to the bar one week, not wanting to be picked up for drinking and driving holiday week, when the police are out looking for drunk driving in full force, and then driving again the following weeks. Maybe it hits too close to home.

Ned,

I'm here...I've been pondering your reply. It strikes close to my own home. I think that's why your posts have meant so much to me over the years.

First, some clarification...are you saying his issue with POJA was the incident at Christmas, or was related to that? Since you'd both supposedly agreed to not do what he did that one day? Or was the incident (and I went "Ouch" too) the big LB that doesn't seem to stop...or stops for awhile and begins again?

Second, do you mean you see where his saying he wants the marriage, and where you do see more investment, him liking his changes, and then this repeat of self-sabotage which harms the marriage?

Have you guys physically separated now, have an LSA in place?

LA

His issue with POJA has comes up at other times, not so much lately, but the incident to me was part of my pattern where I do still give my H my heart in small ways, and he still doesn't protect it. And then you touch on self-sabotage, and I'm wondering, wow, is that possible, that I still get some "poor me" payoff in leaving myself open to be hurt? Or am I acting reasonably to start trusting someone once they are starting to build consistency? I did have a tiny nagging worry to even mention it to him beforehand. I'm thinking some of both, that I can step out a little more, knowing I'm safe.

Yes, I mean that I see him saying he wants the marriage, I see more investment, when things are going as he would expect, and then the repeat of these things which harm the marriage. It reminds me of my own struggle I had with "living life on life's terms," and I see in it also that switch to State of Conflict, where he may want his needs met, but doesn't want to see my needs getting met.

No, LA, we're not separated today. I'm filling out the dissolution of marriage paperwork. There is no legal separation in Florida. But I discussed my plan with the attorney, to put together this agreement, non-binding while we are separated, and execute it after a year of separation. He confirmed that if we'd had an agreement that worked for us for separation, that the divorce will usually be granted with the same terms. I am thinking through what you said about time limits, I see that as an important act of self-care. Because as it stands, waiting for him to get the job offer before we separate, is dragging on and on.

Mini-update, H went for a free consultation with another lawyer, who strongly advised him to go straight to divorce, without separation, before he gets a permanent job offer, because he would pay less child support that way. He says since we are agreeing on the house and custody, that it could be done in 3 weeks. That route looks attractive to me, I am so ready for closure.

A small part of me wonders if I could still consider that as my Plan B, even if we were divorced. I would think so, right, because the main point of Plan B is to limit contact? Not that I am hoping that a Plan B would change his mind, but rather having been here so long, and I know it's possible, to go ahead and do right by my marriage in this.

Also, I saw one of H's brothers, and he told me that one afternoon he was out with H, and H had told them that he'd told me how even they told H what a b----- I was, and he wanted me to know that he stood up and told H that that was a lie, that H knew that they (he) didn't say that about me. That H was justifying something else he did because "everyone knew what a b-----" I was. BiL went on to say that all they ever saw of us together was how we get along well, and he doesn't pass judgment against me or say things like that to H about me. That he wanted me to know that wasn't true. I told him that I came to understand that the things H told me that others said about me may not be the truth, and I thank him for clarifying that with me.

I'm trying to check my intent, to see if I am just looking out for things to justify my own position, of being unwilling to continue working on it together. I don't think so. But I don't think it's healthy to replay that old scene in my head, either. H has told me over the years that this is what they and others have said about me many times over the years, not just once. And I can't really know who was honest or dishonest, I wasn't there. It feels like another blow, like another incident that makes me feel bad about myself, why did I stay part of such an unhealthy situation for so long?

Today, I can see 100 different things to do than to participate in that conversation. Maybe next time I could just cut BiL off, tell him I'm sensitive right now, can he please send it to me in an email to look at when I'm feeling stronger. Or even better, just don't pass that on to me at all. I don't understand why I am still today identifying with this "done-to" role, when I am *so* much more than that. I have a great life for myself today, with great folks who don't name-call each other.

OH, I remember what I posted to you last night, about choosing our attitudes. I tried calling a few folks on my phone list, but no answer. But I think even on my own, I can choose a better attitude.

Ned, the trick, I think, in dealing with negative things that others have said about you, is knowing when to acknowledge that they have a point, and when they don't.

Well, this most recent thing a few months back was that H wanted a friend and his wife to come visit from out of town and stay over our house. His friend had been in and out of jail for drugs and theft, before he had a life change for the better a few years ago. I said that I wasn't comfortable the guy sleeping over here, but especially not with our girls here. My boundaries are around me and the kids, so I told H, if he has these folks come, I have a plan, I'll have the kids sleep over at a friend's house while H's friend and his wife were here. H was insulted and told them not to come at all, and I was relieved. I forgot what the retaliatory move was.

I don't think I was mistaken, but even if I was, then that's what I would be, a person who is mistaken. It wasn't that I was afraid that folks would think of me as this slur, more that I was sad that I choose to live a life where I tolerated that for so long. If someone called my H a similar word for guys, I would tell them that's not okay with me, not go to H and say, "See what a SOB you are? Even all these people say you are."

I feel alot better today. I do have a great life today, filled with kindness and gentleness.

H went to a second lawyer, who also recommended that he go straight to divorce, again before he gets a permanent offer, to protect his interests. We had a heart to heart, and he says that he realizes he's going to miss me. I've got to let him own his thoughts, because from here it feels manipulative, but that's not my business. Minding my business is being cognizant of what I would need, for him to seek out a counselor who would work on a plan with him (hopefully Steve). To see accountability over time. Short of that, all it is is talk with no action behind it. I'm *not* feeling guilty, and I'm not going to go there.

Are you telling him that? Is he absolutely clear what this would like like to you, and what you mean by "a plan"? A plan for him to stop drinking, or a plan to POJA how and when he drinks, or a plan to start meeting each others' ENs, or...?

<Does that sound snarkish? I'm asking, I'm not meaning to sound like I'm accusing you of NOT being clear. Just asking. Not sure how to reword it so it sounds less snarkish, though.>

Hi, Jayne, no, I don't take you as snarkish, hon, more as asking open-ended questions. Which is why it's important to get input from others, I think, in case I miss something important. He has spoken to Steve, last December, and Steve told him about how we are responsible for whether our spouses are in love with us. We've done the ENQ and LBQ, so H has those to refer to, or he could always ask me again, because I know that stuff can change over time.

Jayne, I don't know what that plan would be. OH talks about her role in MC is as partner, not leader. It took me a long time to come to accept that. Anything I repeat to him today, after I've repeated it over and over over the years, like "I have a problem with your drinking", is going to feel like control. He still says, "You just want me to live under your thumb. I won't like live that, Ned."

It would take very little for H to get in touch with Steve. If he didn't save the emails from the counseling center from last year, that's no problem, he can google "Steve Marriage Builders", it would take him here to the site here.

Does he *know*, does he remember, that this is your request? Remember the Dave Barry type of guy - never assume the man remembers what us womenfolk asked for last year. No hints or suggestions - be very clear, leave no room for doubt or misinterpretation, and use short sentences.

When you say last December, do you mean this past December (2009) or the one before that (2008)? Definitely if it was 2008, he may not be connecting the dots, that what you were complaining about back then is the same thing as today.

Have you said, in words, since he started speaking to lawyers in the past week or two: "What would make me feel like this marriage was worth staying in, is if you would call Steve Harley of Marriage Builders"? (or insert whatever *specific* request is true)