[note: I considered this post as a reply to another thread�but after writing and thinking more I believe this post deserves a thread of it�s own]

Okay, I've held my tongue long enough...this is probably the thread that gets me permanently banned from this site. So be it...

If you want my whole story search under �DNU1��I believe my posts are still there. Changed my name and started posting under �LawfulGood� back in May, but all of those posts mysteriously disappeared in the great purge. Coincidentally all my STBxWWs posts disappeared with that purge also. I have a sneaking suspicion that my STBxs atty had something to do with that purge. Call me a conspiracy theorist if you will�I wouldn�t put it past her atty.

The short version: Married 18 years. STBx had two affairs in medical school, 14 years ago. I had gut feeling something was wrong, and kept asking her if there were other men. She denied. When the A�s fizzled we got in to counseling�and she then confessed her affairs (DDay#2, OMs #1&#2). I was heartbroken, but loved her and knew no other life�so we worked on it. Life was good, moved around & started family, I left some good jobs to support her medical school, residency, internships, etc.

Finally moved back to home town 4+ years ago. I became stay-at-home dad. Something didn�t feel right in summer 2007, but I blew it off. Summer 2009 we took family vacation just before she turned 40. Hung out with hunting buddy and his brothers. It was there that STBx met my hunting buddy�EA developed fall 2008. They met in Vegas and PA happened Oct 2009. He basically dropped her shortly after. She lashed out at me after that, saying I wasn�t meeting her needs as hubby / dad / etc (this was early Nov 2009). Their A was over. I was afraid and started working harder at being good hubby / dad / etc.

I found her open e-mail Dec 26, 2008�DDay #2 (OM#3). Confronted her. She admitted A. Didn�t� know what to do, with no job, two kids. Found MB.com, asked her to work on marriage. Posted here and updated. Many said to watch out�something smelled rotten in denmark. STBx let me do heavy lifting, work my tail off to win her back with Plan A. I kept asking her if any other skeletons in closet�she said no, that I knew about everyone, everything. I snooped � hard core ultra-snooping.

May 5th I ask her about Dr.X, since I had a bad feeling about him. She looks me right in eyes and says, �No, nothing with Dr.X, never, ever.� Next day I see texts between them and learn the truth � DDay#3 (OM#4). Confront her and she denies for 20+ minutes�finally admitting an affair with him that started TWO YEARS earlier (summer 2007). Two days later Divorce papers in her hand�she hysterical begging me for just one more chance.

The next month I see her make wholesale changes in her actions � start attending church, buys me flowers, plays with kids, spends time with them, buys me clothes, begs me to take her back, starts posting on mb.com, apologizes to my family, seeks counseling with our pastor, tells me she would spend her life making this up to me, etc.. Even counsels with Dr. Harley himself.

I told you that story so I could tell you this story: Dr. Harley�s counseling.

STBx counseled with Dr. Harley a few times then asked if I would talk with him. I said it was �Plan D� and would talk to Dr. Harley only to help STBx work through her demons, help her grow as a person and understand why she had these affairs. I was also looking to help my own healing. Plan D was solid and not changing and I made this very clear to Dr. Harley and STBx.

I have to admit that I was a bit awe-struck in talking to the author of all those books, the man responsible for mb.com and all the great principles that helped me so much in the early part of 2009. Our first session was very informative but I could sense Dr. Harley was subtly pushing for me to giver her just one more chance. I held firm in my belief � it had to be Plan D, that was right thing for me to do.

I cannot remember if I counseled with Dr. Harley two or three times. But I do distinctly remember my last session with him. I was scheduled to spend 15 minutes on the phone with Dr. Harley discussing STBxs actions and her improvement � that conversation lasted over an hour. I was shocked and disappointed at Dr. Harley�s approach in our last session.

In my opinion he was clearly trying to persuade me to give my WW just one more chance, even though I had told him many times I was not interested in recovery. I held strong to my decision for Plan D and reiterated what I had told Dr. Harley in previous sessions�that I was here to help STBx heal and not to reconsider the divorce.

Dr. Harley kept trying to persuade me to reconsider and, to my surprise, started contradicting his own MB.com principles(!). I�m no genius, but I�m pretty logical, so I pointed out these contradictions to Dr. Harley. He kept hammering his points home, carefully and subtly ignoring my logic and protests. Our session became an intellectual battle of wills � Dr. Harley trying everything to get me to reconsider the divorce and me holding true to my Plan D decision and pointing out contradictions between his arguments and his very own MB.com philosophies.

When our conversation ended I found myself disenchanted, disappointed and even a little angry.

I am not writing this to bash Dr. Harley, his principles, MB.com or anyone on this board. I am writing this because it is the truth as I experienced it. I learned a great deal from these boards and grew tremendously over the past year.

As Dr. Harley himself told me, �I am a marriage counselor, not a divorce counselor.� I firmly believe if you are interested in trying to recover your marriage after an affair, this is the place for you. I have found no other support system, philosophies or principles that compare to MB.com with regard to marriage recovery. MB.com is simply the best in that regard.

However, if you make the decision to divorce, I humbly suggest you move on...(there, I said it)

Some of you know me from my posts last spring / summer, and know that I stopped actively posting last summer/fall. I had to get away from these boards to help my healing. Reading and posting here kept bringing my pain and anguish back to the forefront�and I needed to move forward, move on. I had to step away from mb.com for my own health and healing.

It has now been eight months since DDay#3 & D-papers delivered. It has been a long and difficult journey. STBx and I are negotiating a settlement and I hope to have this D finalized before spring. I may continue to post a bit here and there. I feel I�m in a better place now than I was last summer / fall. I am working full time and have custody of my DDs. Life is getting better, one day at a time. That is all for now. God Bless, LG

I am so sorry you have gone through so much. 3 D-days. our marriage is in recovery (I was the FWW), but I can see how that much anguish would be impossible to overcome. I sometimes feel conflicted myself over "plans" or behaviors, as there is no way I will ever be perfect. This kind of thing should never have to happen to anyone.

Your beef with Dr. H makes no sense. If you were going with D no matter what WTH is he supposed to say if you don't want to rebuild your M?

I think he is just overly traumatized.(For good reason) I'm divorced, recovering my R w/ fwxw and doing just fine. Being on this board w/ all the nutjob waywards that come on here(Bingo comes to mind) helps me heal. You can see how crazy waywardness is with every post. I like MB.com. I think the forum is sufficient for me, but I understand why some feel the need for the Harleys themselves...DUDE

I disagree, if he told Dr Harley and his stbxw that he did not want to save the M then Dr Harley should not have insisted that he give his stbxw another chance and pushed him. He did not even have to go to try to help his stbxw heal so i think he did a wonderful thing....

I understand your beef with Dr. H. but at the same time I don't think he was ever misleading in that he's a marriage counsellor, not a divorce counsellor. Marriage is his specialty so you have expect that he will do what he can to save the marriage. It's not what you were looking for, but neither is seeking a car stereo at a bed and linens shop.

You have been through a rough time. Adultery sucks. We take away permanent scars from this experience, regardless of how your M turns out. We are here on this forum because we've been through it. We can look back at what we did right or wrong along the way and use our experiences to help others that come along. MB has given me a lot of hope when there was none and it's given me a place to vent. Mostly, it's given me a strategy and the strength to move on with my life and to know that the success or failure of the outcome comes from within myself, not from WXH. We are all on a different journey. We just happened to share the most brutally cruel of experiences along our way.

S_C, mb is for building marriages. There is a divorce forum for discussion/sharing but the mb weekends and literature are for couples trying to rebuild. This is not IC and never has been held out as such. A BS's emontions are all over the place...the rollercoaster. I can't say I blame anyone for questioning a BS about being sure of D due to problems that creates as well.

Neither Harley (nor any counselor) can see what is in people's minds/hearts to know a BS intimately after 2 or 3 phone calls so they ask questions to make sure a person has thought about D forwards, backwards, and upside down. I personally would wonder why someone is wasting their time/money to a MC when there is no M wanting to be saved. Go see an IC about individual healing. The other makes no sense to me.

The only problem with that thinking BR is that many waywards feel the exact same way when they come here. A few BS's have convinced their WS to counsel with the Harley's and I'm sure he's heard over and over again that they are not interested in recovery. Yet he still manages to save some of these marriages. LG's sitch is just the reverse of the above, but his protests regarding recovery probably sound very similar. I think Dr.H. did what was expected. It just wasn't what LG was looking for.

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As Dr. Harley himself told me, �I am a marriage counselor, not a divorce counselor.� I firmly believe if you are interested in trying to recover your marriage after an affair, this is the place for you. I have found no other support system, philosophies or principles that compare to MB.com with regard to marriage recovery. MB.com is simply the best in that regard.

However, if you make the decision to divorce, I humbly suggest you move on...(there, I said it)
***********************************************

Uhm, this is a marriage building site and Dr. Harley is a Marriage counselor, so what's the problem. Your STBXW wanted a D and checked out of the M. I know you are bitter but ppl do have free will to end a M if they want to do so. I know you are hurting right now but use this as an opportunity to improve yourself.

I am pretty sure that what i read was that LG did not want to see Dr Harley at all, he did it for his stbxw not for himself and he told Dr Harley up front that is why he was there, not for himself and not to restore his marriage but to help his stbxw to heal.

That is why i said what i said, because LG was NOT really going for himself.

I don't know what that has to do with anything in this case. The BS does not want to salvage the M...which is perfectly fine. If a BS expects IC for the WS, mb is not the place for it. I'm not going to show up at a Toyota dealership if I want a Porsche.

Personally, I got the sense from your thread last summerish [that's gone] that your wife MAY have had a shot to recover with you but SHE was going to have to find the way to open that door herself. I was NOT convinced you were done at all whereas I WAS convinced YOU were done "trying".

I think a call to a "marriage counselor" for "help" speaks for itself and Steve Harley [not Dr. Harley...I assume] would try to help you [AND HER] recover your marriage.

In one aspect I agree.

I think, for some, posting regularly on the mb boards for years about their ex-spouse's infidelity is acutely unhealthy. The infidelity boards are TRAUMA UNITS and not divorce recovery forums.

Mr. Wondering

Maybe "I respect your decision to divorce your wife. Since I am a marriage counselor, and not a divorce counselor, I think there is no further benefit to continuing our counseling sessions. If your wife wishes to to continue the program I would be happy to work with her on an individual basis. In the mean time, I suggest you find a divorce support group in your area, or pursue individual counseling during this traumatic time. Should you change your mind concerning the divorce, I am here for you."

cobo_girl, it was not his stbxw who wanted the divorce, it was LG (he was the BS).

Totally agree!!!!

Maybe he did. Who knows.

I think if you re-read LGs post you will see that he did not and that is his beef with Dr Harley......

black_raven: I wish Dr. H would have said those words...but he did not.

I think some of you missed my main points...they are:

1. I went in to counseling with Dr.H after making it very clear that I was firm in Plan D, and only wanted to counsel to help STBxWW and my healing. They both understood this from the get-go. The fact that he repeatedly kept trying to get me to recover felt like a bait-n-switch, like I was blind-sided.

2. I was very disappointed that Dr.H would openly contradict his own principles and philosophies in trying to get me to attempt another recovery.

Specifically, what "principles and philosphies" did he contradict?

LG,

I read this post and just nodded and thought: "It makes sense."

I would have been disappointed in Dr. Harley if he did not try to persuade you to try again. On the other hand, if you were set on divorce I would have been disappointed in you and your decision if you did not feel the pressure. Because if you are sure any discussion of restoring the marriage would have felt like a lot of unnecessary pressure.

Oddly, I think this is a very informative approach and that it affirms both you and Dr. Harley.

I will tell you I had also hoped that somehow you could see your way to reconcile IF your W was very serious about changing her ways and making your life a good one. However, I also realized that there is always a point where "enough is enough" and apparently you had reached it. You did well given that was where you were.

You had made many sacrifices for this marriage and were rewarded with lies and cheating. Hard to address years of systematic lies and cheating and yet... all of us hope that people learn and grow.

So again I thank you for your post because I think it will help people reevaluate where they are and see at some point if they are done, they are done.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Do keep us updated on your life. It think you can do many here a great deal of good as you move on. They will want to hear how your children are doing, how they are handling dealing with your exW, and oddly if your exW ever really did learn anything from this or was her behavior just so engrained that she cannot stop having affairs.