We will go round and round so this is my final answer for $50k...

If someone shows up at a Toyota dealership telling me he doesn't want to buy a Toyota I would wonder if he really wants one but doesn't want to say it...because if he honest to goodness has zero interest in one why is he here regardless of what he says. If his wife wants one but he's saying she can look but there is no way in the world he is going to write a check to buy one, I would show him the car and point out the features...thinking well...maybe he doesn't know for sure...maybe he hasn't seen X, Y, and Z. I'll show him a few things. You keeping insisting...nope...I don't want that...I want a Porsche. Rinse, repeat...why are you here then? Because I want a Porsche.

LG, I doubt you counseled with Dr Harley, but with his SON, Steve Harley, who is a therapist.

And I can't speak for his tactics, because I am sure he had his own reasons. I know he does try and persuade people to TRY to rebuild in marriages that CAN BE recovered, but will counsel ppl to divorce in hopeless situations.

What principles do you think he contradicted?

No worries LG. Good luck to you and the kiddos. I hope you have found some peace after living through this nightmare.

It is my understanding that DOCTOR WILLARD HARLEY (author of SAA) no longer does phone counseling. He devotes his time to his radio program and MB seminars and weekends.

Are you sure you didn't speak with his SON - Steve Harley?
I believe the phone counseling in only offered by Steve or his sister Jennifer Harley-Chalmers.

I think the distinction is important.

LG, I can understand and accept that you made a choice to get a divorce, but that is often the hardest way out of a dilemma and Steve knows this. I can understand why Steve would try to persuade you to try. He knows that your marriage can probably be recovered, whereas you don't believe it can. I have no doubt that he firmly believes this could be saved and he would remiss if he didn't try to convey that message to you.

Another thing that always occurs to me is that many folks make the decision to divorce when they are ANGRY. Well, anger goes away, but a divorce doesn't. He would not be doing his job if didn't really test your attitude about divorce.

Unlike traditional counselors who ask clients "what is your goal,"[dangerous to ask a fogged out person, IMO] it seems his goal is to help couples have a happy marriage, UNLESS the marriage is unrecoverable.

This is correct. Dr Harley does not do phone counseling. His work is done on the weekend forum.

Thanks JL, Mel and Raven and others:

Yes, I had reached a point of "enough" in my marriage. The pieces were so broken, so shattered that there was no way I could put them back together again. It was a very difficult decision, one that I will swear to this day was infinately harder than any decision to try and recover my marriage, or even learning of DDays.

Divorce is quite honestly the most horrible thing I have ever experienced in my life. Because I knew my marriage to my best friend, my soul mate of 18+ years was over.

Mel: I have detailed notes of my converesations with Dr.H, but they are safely stored outside my house. I do not remember the exact details today, only that it struck me as odd how those long held MB principles and philosophies were being thrown by the wayside so quickly and effortlessly. I'm a "talk the talk and walk the walk" kind of guy. Disappointed in how those sessions were handled.

Thanks for clarification between the Harley's...I did not know that.

Yes, I counseled with Steve Harley.

Can you be generally more specific?

Which long held MB principles and philosophies?

LG,

I don't see SH comprising the principles of MB by encouraging you to try and save the marriage. This is marriage builders.

As I said earlier, I would expect no less.

By the same token, given that you were resolute in your decision I can understand you feeling very pressured and uncomfortable. I would expect no less from you either.

You've done well LG. Live with that knowledge and prosper.

God Bless,

JL

Yeah, you can party like a rockstar now!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

DUDE

Ah, the DUDE I remember has returned...

And no, not partying like a rockstar...still LG, still officially married per the laws of my state, thank you very much.

I think there is a LawfulBAD out there somewhere...hehe I got a feelin, that tonights gonna be a good night....DUDE

From one LG to Another:

I call BS on all of this.

MB is ultimately about the truth. And one day, you got it all.

And from that day forward, you had the chance to recover your marriage. It even appeared that Mrs LG was buying in.

You talked to SH, three or four times, and probably got good advice. He was also speaking to your STBXWW. Somewhere in there, he was hearing two sides of this story and finding SOME reason to try and save this marriage.

He wasn't doing it to make $195 an hour from you, because there is someone else wainting on line #2....

He did it because this in MARRIAGEBUILDERS!

You asked him to work on your WIFE. And he was.

You could have had one of the better recoveries out there.

And then you decided enough is enough. That is your right.

There is even a divorce forum here that may be able to help you out.

You had a chance, you had all the tools, your sitch wasn't that unusual, and your WW wasn't the worst in the bunch of them around here.

She got thumped pretty bad when she posted, and she kept coming back.

Somebody, I don't know who, is going to benefit from that better Mrs FormerLG. Becasue she is going to be better. And for the next 20 years, you will be looking in the window wondering why you threw it all away.

Sorry, that is my penalty flag on all this.

MARRIAGEBUILDERS is about fixing and making marriages better. Even after the worst forms of infidelity. But it takes committment. On both parties part. You were in, you even got her to test the waters, but you BAILED at that point.

Good luck to you. I'm glad you have a new professional position, and I hope things work out for you. But this divorce could have been prevented. Yes, STBXWW has a serious problem, that she was beginning to address. Your dropping D-papers on her may have been the shock she needed. But you did it, then walked away. You walked to soon. SH recognized this.

Therefore the seeming disconnect between your "wishes" and what SH counsuled.

LG

I hope this isn't a threadjack; I apologize if it is.

Like LawfulGood, I am approaching the resolution of my marriage as a decree of final divorce. It's not what I wanted. I never wanted my wife to have an affair. I never wanted either of us to go through the pain and suffering this has brought on.

But presently, she shows no indication of remorse, regret, or of any wish to keep what was. Without that spark, there is no other recourse, in my opinion.

In Alcoholics Anonymous, the belief is that one must "hit bottom" before recovery can begin. My wife is nowhere near bottom (as far as I can tell). And she may never be.

But I have been told that no one knows the future. It may be that my wife and I divorce, and at some future time, start dating again. Who knows?

I don't think this means that I haven't learned from MB's principles (I now own three of Dr. H's books). Or that I haven't learned how to be a better husband.

The saying "it takes only one to say 'no' to a relationship, it takes two to say 'yes'" applies. LawfulGood sounds like he made his choice, and he shouldn't be castigated for it.

Who knows what the future brings?

From one LG to another:

Decision was made for Plan D on May 6, 2009, not after counseling with Dr.H. I had enough, period. Don't you think 3DDays, 4OMs and years of lies and deceipt were "enough"? You may not understand, but that's the glory of life...I get to walk in my shoes, look at myself in the mirror every morning when I wake up. I am proud of how I handled myself throughout the entire 18+ years of my marriage.

And honestly, when I spelled out the entire story to STBxWWs parents & BFFs, none of them, I repeat, NONE of them could blame me for heading to Plan D after all we had been through. Note: STBxWW did not even tell her parents the entire story...just told them she had another indescression and we were divorcing. Upon hearing the whole story even her Dad looked me in the eye and said he couldn't blame me for divorcing her.

So for you to sit there, hundreds or thousands of miles away, and say "Becasue she is going to be better. And for the next 20 years, you will be looking in the window wondering why you threw it all away", wow, that is simply amazing you can even think that, let alone have any proof that I've made a bad decision based on posts you read here by me and STBx.

For the record, she was better...for about two months. She made wholesale changes in her actions (church, counseling, time with kids, etc. see previous posts)...and even offered me everything in a divorce settlement. But since then she has resorted back to her old self...all those changes in her actions, no longer happening. And the divorce settlement talks have gone from "take everything, it's just stuff...doesn't matter to me" to now "you will get what is fair and equitable per the law of our state."

Hmmmm.

LG, I'm disappointed in you. To sit there and tell me i made a mistake by heading to Plan D confounding. I appreciate that this is a "marriagebuilders" site, but it's attitudes like your post here that really make me question the integrity of some of the people on this site.

**edit**

I think if R were to happen, all the lifting needs to be done by her. I know Plan A is for the BS, but he made his decision to be done with it. If she truly, truly wanted R, then she would have and still would be groveling at his feet.

We often tell WS on here that they need to give the decision to the BS. If the BS says get out of my home, they should respect that etc. When it comes to BS wanting a D, then WS needs to work their a$$ off respecting that, moving forward with that in a respectful disagreement and maintaining hope after D that R is still possible.

What you have with repeat offenders is cake eating and an ego to boot. In these instances the WS should agree to being locked up in the basement and given dinner scraps and coming out on x-mas and 4th of July and BEING OK WITH IT in order to do anything to R.

I think LG went through enough. I also think he knows his W better than we do and Dr. S. His wife should be kissing his a$$ quitting her job, working part time while he gets a job and he should be suing the hospital for grievance over W and OP having an A. Yes, that last part was sarcasm, but she should have some pretty bruised knees forever to R M.

This is the most inaccurate and ridiculous statement I've read on MB all day.

BTW, what's your story FlambeauOne?

LG , one poster said you may be throwing away someone who will be a better wife in the future. that could be true, but given your history it might be a better bet to say she could be better for someone else, but probably not you. she has shown that for you she cant hack it. one poster says not to go to a toyota dealership for a porsche. I believe I have actually seen a porsche on a toyota dealership lot. im sure that toyota has had many different types of cars on their lots. maybe not the best analogy. too,its not unrealistic to go to a marriage building site thinking that given the breadth of experience they could help with divorce adjustment. one poster goes so far as to say steve harley knows your marriage could recover. steve harley doesn t know that. people throw the word know around ,to know, when they should say, suspect, or think,or maybe. playing the lottery shows that no one knows anything much. we hope,and maybe we can have clues to give us a basis for hope. as fred says, maybe one day he might meet his ex and date once again. maybe you can meet a wiser and more honest her, once again, in a post divorce future.