bump. How are you doing Chuck.

Sorry that I havn't been on in forever. I just havn't had much too say. Somedays I tink Isee her coming back, and others sheseems a bit more distant. She told me 2weeks ago that shestill doesn't know if she wants to be married to me. I have to remember that while I have bee going through this for 6 months now, she has had nc for only 3. So I think that this may still be normal. I asked her if she was here only because of our son, she said not anymore, that she stayedfor him. I asked what ha changed and she said she doesn't know. I asked her if sheloves me, shesaid that she thinks she does, because she doesn't want to see me hurt or sick, but she doesn't know if thats enough. Shehas been more open to m touching her, and comes to me for hugs, and holding hnds, and never says no. Thereis still no I love yous or kisses, let alone sex, whch has started tobecome an issue for me. I have set a deadline in my mind of Aug. 15th. At that time she must be wearing her ring, sayning I love you and showig somekind of remorse. If not, I think that I will end it.

Chuck:

You've got every right to make whatever decision you need to make about how long you are willing to wait for whatever behaviors you need from your wife.

On the other hand - 3 months isn't long. At all. It's hard for us BS's to hear, but the truth is that there really are real feelings involved that the WW has to let go of, work through, and resolve. And it's a whole mess of feelings - doubt, uncertainty, why-the-hell-did-I-do-that/why-the-hell-did-I-come-back, I'm a horrible person, I'm confused, I love OM, I love my H, I've done something I never thought I could do and so what does this mean about whether I can recover the marriage, how do I really feel about my H/OM/my M - and on and on and on.

It sounds like she is making progress. She's told you she is not just there for your son. She's told you that she loves you, she just doesn't know what that means yet. (This is a FAR sight different from where alot of returning WS's are at 3 months; many of them still feel absolutely numb or are still so consumed with grief and/or anger and/or resentment that they can't even see love, let alone feel it.)

As I said, I firmly believe you have every right to make whatever decision you need to. I'm offering these things just as a benchmark of sorts, to help give some perspective. I know that you are suffering and that this is one of the most difficult periods of your life, but you have already hung in there for 6 months. Whether we like it or not, these sorts of crises ALWAYS take longer to work through than we think they should. Be certain you are ready to end it if you mean to set a deadline for yourself; and remember that change and progress are incremental.

I applaud you hanging in there as long as you have, and for trying.

- Miriam

Your august deadline seems like a good one. Just don't get needy with her. Give her space and let her come to you for affection. You have been extremely patient with her. That is to your credit. Remember you are in the power seat. It may be a good time for you to plan a trip away. To see how she responds when you are gone. Don't worry about her backsliding. She would do it whether you were there or not. It would show that you trust her enough to do it. And maybe it will give her time to sort out her feelings. And maybe miss you enough to give you some when you get back. Good luck.

Hi Everyone,

Well, I haven't been on in some time. I didn't realize how long it had been. Quick update is that on our vacation in Germany, I got fed up and walked out. She came running after me, an finally said I love you. We were stuck right there for awhile though, andI let her know in September that I want all of her or nothing. Since then she has really come around. She says I love you all of the time. She has told me eveything about the affair. She has read HN,HN. She tries to meet my needs as best as she can. Sounds great, and I should be very happy, but I am not. I know that I hold our future in my hands, and I can't seem to get past this. She has done everything that I have ased of her, but still I can't seem to shake this. I love her so much,but I keep tnking why did she do this to me? I understand everything frm an intellectual side, but my heart wont let me forget. I don't think that its fair to her that I can't let go of this, eventually she will say enough of this. I know that she had the affair, but it is time for me to get over this. I don't like feeling this way,I don't want to feel this way. I need to get over this, but I don't know how. I have forgiven her, but I can't seem to forget. I know that I am holding us back. Any advice friends?

Counsel with the Harleys.

Hey Chuck,

If that's the way you feel, you need to start imagining life without her. Because in the end it is going to be one way or the other. Maybe if you did you could get beyond this, and break through to true forgiveness.

Ok Chuckt,

A few thoughts. YOu don't want to forget...ever. That would be a very foolish thing to do. You want to remember, you want her to remember and you want to learn and use what you remember to have a better marriage. If you forget, you get to do it again most likely.

So your goal of forgetting is simply not inline with recovery. What will happen is the feelings that are associated with the memory will gradually fade and detach. That takes time, Harley suggests around 2 years.

Now about "getting over" this. BEEEEEP Wrong answer. You get "through" it, and you do this be talking with your W about your fears, your feelings, and asking her to help you figure out what will help BOTH of you. She has fears as well. Address your fears and your pain by talking/discussing/thinking about how to make a better marriage from what you had and have learned.

Your frustration, your feelings, your memory are all normal.

Talk, discuss, plan and I think in the next few months you will see improvement.

God Bless,

JL

You know Chuck - sounds like you might have moved into real recovery and now that you see that your marriage won't be over, your anger is bubbling to the surface. You are the greatest risk to your marriage right now. The anger will subside as you continue to meet each other's needs and fall in love. You get through this - not past it or over it. The only path is through.

(This is all normal BTW)

Hello everyone,

Time flies doesn't it. My wife and I are well on the road to recovery. She has read both his needs and love busters. We really work on our marriage, and it doesn't seem like work anymore. We have both come to the understanding that after my wife fought Cervical Cancer she was stuck in a very bad depression, which led us to where none of us should have to go. The funny thing is that since my last post, I told my wife that I don't know if I could ever look at her the same way again. I said that I don't know if I could ever trust her again. I told her that I don't know if I could ever get through this. I told her that I want to, but I don't know if I can. She said that she understands, and that she loves me. Then she gave me a hug. From that day on I have gotten better and better. It was as though by telling her that, I released it. She is the girl of my dreams and I have all of you to thank that we are still together. I still have moments of doubt and fear. Times that I am scared of her hurting me again. But that is all they are anymore, moments. Please if anyone is reading this that is new here. Please understand that you are strong even though you feel week. You can do this. Listen to the advice of those that have been there. My wife was like a completly other person when she was under the "spell". Now I have my princess back and we now have gain the knowledge to be better than ever. I didn't think our marriage was bad before the affair, even though my wife told me it was. Now she remembers though, but we are better than ever now, and still improving. just remember that your spouse is lost, and they need you to guide them back, even if they don't know it!

Hello Again

Well it has been even longer since I have been on, and I don't know why. I need the support of this forum just as much now as I ever did. I have a few interesting developments, and without going into to much detail, here they are:

About 2 months ago I called the OM, if you read my posts, the A was over on Nov. 17, 2008. Not so says OM. It continued for about a year longer. It wasn't until after our trip to Germany that it ended. Many of you at the time told me that it was still going on and I didn't want to beleive it. I confronted my wife, who finally admitted to everything(I think). But thats just it, how can I know? How will I ever know?

The question that repeatedly pops into my head is "how could she do this" Whenever I would ask my wife, she would say that she honestly doesn't know. She says that everything is just so cloudy and that she felt most of the time as though she were having an out of body experience. She said that she would see herself doing these things and not know how to stop it and just go with the flow. She says how sorry she is for hurting us and wishes that she could take it all back. She tells me that she loves me all of the time, and promises that it will never happen again. Again, how can I beleive her?

A couple of weeks ago, my wife was diagnosed with Chiemo Brain. My wife had Cancer about 4 years ago and had alot of Chiemo and Radiation. It effects 60-80% of the people who undergo treatment and the symptoms are:

Clouded thinking
Memory loss, including major events
irrational decision making
and depression is something that just comes with the territory.

I tell myself that this is the answer to how she could do this. How she could completely transform into another person. I love her and together we are doing wonderful. Lots of affection in both directions, we both pay close attention to our ENs. The biggest problems we have are mine. I still get angry and depressed. It doesn't take much to put me in a "mood". I hate being this guy. I hate that I distrust her, and I hate that I still think about this so much. Most of all I hate hurting. I can feel when my heart is crying and I don't want to feel this way. She seems to have devoted herself to me, but I don't trust her and don't know if I ever will. She lied and hurt me for so long that I think it is understandable, but at thsame time, I want to let it go.

bump

Polygraph. I was opposed to the thought of it when I first read the suggestion on this forum, but the longer I thought about it, it makes perfect sense.

As far as the present, snoop. She should check up on you and you should check up on her. Full transparency. Complete access to each other's email, phone, computers, records, etc.


I'm really sorry to hear about your wife's Chemo Brain diagnosis. I'm not familiar with the condition, so I can't speak to how mind altering it is.

However, I can tell you that despite our various circumstances (my husband had just lost his dad and was dealing with a couple other personal crises when he began an affair 10 years ago), the circumstances don't cause anyone to have affairs. The circumstances may very well place people in a more vulnerable position, but they are not the cause.

And your wife didn't have an affair because she didn't love you and care about you and your family.

Most people have affairs because the have sloppy boundaries. They haven't yet learned (how many of us are taught?) to not enter into a friendly yet fulfilling conversation with a member of the opposite sex, for example. Once boundaries are crossed, it's just a matter of time before "innocent" interactions turn into an affair. In truth, there's nothing innocent about the interactions to begin with.

Adulterers selfishly put their own needs above the needs of the people they truly love. They think only of themselves, only about getting the next fix, only about getting another zing they get from the interactions with OM/OW.

It really is helpful to think of it as an addiction.

In your mind, replace your wife's OM with a bottle of vodka or a crack pipe.

Does that help you in any way?

Thank you for the response, I know that this will sound as though I am making excuses for my FWW, but she wasn't like this with "sloppy boundaries". I just think that the chemobrain changed things for her. The more I read on it, the more it makes sense. They say it actually alters the brain.

BTW, my wife is sitting next to me right now, we just read through alot of my old posts and responses. She said that she doesn't like reading about how bad she hurt me and that she loves me so much.

I really do have my princess back.

No disrespect intended, but yes she did have sloppy/weak boundaries. Many of us do because we don't learn correct boundaries in our society.

If she had proper boundaries, she wouldn't have had an affair. If she had proper boundaries, it wouldn't matter what set of circumstances she was experiencing, NOTHING would have mattered, she wouldn't have had the first inappropriate interaction nor the second and so on.

I think it's important for you to consider that if Chemo Brain changed things for her back then and was the reason she "could completely transform into another person" and have an out of body experience (a.k.a. an affair), what's different now?

She still suffers from the same condition.

Hopefully you'll both realize that there is a way she can guarantee that she will not have an affair in the future.

The solution is doesn't lie in getting rid of Chemo Brain.

The solution is for her to establish and maintain extraordinary precautions (a set of unbendable rules and boundaries) that prevent her from having any inappropriate interactions with members of the opposite sex ... even the first "innocent" interaction.

Hi Chuck,
Good to hear that things are going better for you. I'd like to address a few of your comments:

"How could she do this?" I'll bet every betrayed spouse in history has asked this question. Understand that we are all wired to join with another human - it's how our emotions are built. A lack of boundaries will cause a married person to join with another human when they shouldn't. Your WW lacked proper boundaries.

It's interesting that your WW felt she was having an 'out-of-body' experience. That sounds to me like she knew what she was doing was wrong, and disassociated herself in order to do it.

She promises you it will never happen again. Yep, many of us have heard that, and we all hope to God that the wayward means it. The emotional and physical damage done by adultery is mind-boggling. What's even more mind-boggling is that waywards so often don't 'get' the scope of the damage they have done. Affair-proofing your M is something that the two of you will be doing together. Stay with the MB materials on this site - that's your best investment in keeping your M together and affair-free.

Chemo-Brain? Huh. Well, I'm not going to dismiss this 'syndrome'? 'side-effect'? (not sure what to call it.) All I can say is that I've got a lot of family and friends who had side-effects from chemo, but none of them had affairs because of it. I am concerned with the Chemo-brain statement because I don't want to see your WW not accept complete responsibility for her actions. "The chemo made me do it" is not something either of you should entertain.

I'll stick with the boundaries comment I made earlier in this post.

To be fair, my FWW says that she is responsible for my pain. That she doesn't want to cheapen the hurt she caused by blaming it on the Chemo. Maybe it just makes me feel better about things, to think that this was a large part of what happened. In no way does she blame the Cancer or use it as an excuse. I guess I do that for her.