catperson suggested I put this letter I just sent WH up to the group. My story is here--> Wolf, not Cougar's story

Here are my thoughts too, on my new insecurities because of his infidelity and long term secret porn addiction here --> http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2300377#Post2300377

Here's the letter. "David" refers to our counselor, who we were seeing jointly, but now individually. I hope this is useful to anyone. -Wolf, not Cougar

Dear WH-
After we spoke on Tuesday, I realized I didn't have a chance to clarify why I declined to talk with you. Under advisement from David, I'm limiting communications with you until he's satisfied with your progress and feels it's prudent to re-open a dialog. Please understand that I need to preserve any love for you, so that if you decide to give our relationship a new chance, I will still have enough love left for you to want to try again. Right now, any face-to-face communication is painful.

I hope that you continue to work through your issues so you can identify the true root of the problem and find a resolution. I've learned that there's no way I could control your problem solving process and even though I meant well, my interference wasn't helpful. Only you can cure you.

During our separation I've done a LOT of thinking. The last three months have probably been the most important personal growth period in my life, and I've come to a much better understanding of my own part in our communication problems. I've learned a lot, and I think I can avoid many of the mistakes I've made in our past. Each of us owns 50% of the problems in our marriage... I can see how I'm not totally blameless, here.

There are many things I'd like to share with you. Our time in counseling over the last year made me believe we really DO have something worth preserving. We could build a new life together filled with positive changes, experiences, things and people that we BOTH want... one where we're both equal partners. I want to be your best friend, someone who's always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend. I hope that one day we can truly recover the good times we've had, and create a lifestyle based on complete honesty, protecting each other's feelings, and spending time together making new memories.

If you decide that you want to work on building a new relationship with me, whether it be friendship or marriage, I promise you that I'll leave the past behind us. I'll ask only that you do the same. I can't put a time line on how long I'll be open to reconciliation, as I have to move on with my life, work on my own issues and rebuild. I need to do what's best for me. I believe we're intelligent people, that we can make this work, and that we can build a great life together that would be well worth the effort. I want to be in a healthy, honest, exclusive relationship with you... one that meets both our needs and ideally lasts the rest of our lives. Your friendship is important to me, and I hope we both end up happy.

To break "no-contact" with me, these are the steps YOU must take:
1. You must have David convinced you're sincere, and that our friendship is important to you.
2. You must be addressing your issues to David's satisfaction
3. You must have a genuine desire to improve relations and preserve our friendship

If you decide you want to preserve our marriage, you must also:
1. Be willing to work at it, and have realistic expectations. Progress, not perfection.
2. End your other sexual relationships, and set appropriate boundaries with any of your women friends.
3. You must be in treatment for your alcohol/compulsive issues- to David's satisfaction
4. Agree to follow a mutually decided marriage counseling plan
5. Take an STD test and share the results with me.

All my love,
Wolf, not Cougar

I would cut that down to about 3 paragraphs. You are speaking to someone who is very detached and practically A.D.D. in his thinking so this should be right to the point. Less is better with an alcoholic.

Secondly, "limiting communication" is not Plan B and won't be effective with an alcoholic. That is a loophole wide enough for a MAC truck with an alcoholic. Even a DUMB alcoholic can figure out how to work around that.

I would cut back to 3 paragraphs and cut back to 2-3 KEY conditions for coming back, this should not be detailed. The rest is pollution that clouds the issue. Your key issues should be:

1. STOP DRINKING and enter a program of recovery, ie: AA

2. end your affair

3. commit to a program of recovery for our marriage.

Those 3 things are the only thing that matter, the rest of it is window dressing that can be negotiated under #1 or #3.

An alcoholic needs clear, concise meaningful communication in order to get it. Who is David? Is he an alcoholic? Has your H been to AA?

Wolf, are you in Alanon?

I thought I would also address your point about him identifying the "true root" of his problem. If he is an alcoholic, the problem is that he drinks too much and lives like a bum. The solution, therefore, is to stop drinking and adopt the 12 steps of AA. AA will help him change his life by showing him how to solve his living problem. They don't care about why he is that way and won't want to hear his crap, but they will show him how to live right.

It is important to understand that one does not have to understand the root of a problem to change present behavior. All they need to do is CHANGE. Talking about the past is a waste of time that distracts from the solution of changing present behavior.

Ok, here's a quick recap of my story so you don't have to go digging for it.

I'm still married, and the divorce hasn't even been finalized yet, but my husband of 17 + years is having a MLC, and has left me to pursue his growing alcohol problem and his porn-influenced fantasies of a life with no responsibilities and endless sex with other women.

He "bomb dropped" on me Oct 08' with his declaration of his undying admiration for a really trashy woman he met just 10 days prior... she was into "polyamory" and was, at the time, screwing 5 different guys, plus extras she'd bring home from the bars when her standing partners were unavailable and she was "lonely." Just 10 days after meeting her, my WH decided that pursuing this "friendship" with her was more important than anything else in his life. He told me he thought she'd be faithful to him because he was "so much more honorable than her other guys." A few days later, he returned, wanting to work on our marriage. This last year or so has been filled with his waffling, increasing drinking problems, etc, cumulating with him saying he could no longer be my husband 3 months ago. He turned around and Facebook friend-ed Miss Skankypants the very day he dropped out of false recovery.

At the time of his initial bomb drop, he dropped a second one, too.... his long-term porn addiction. Turns out in addition to our decent to quite good sex life, he's always had a serious wanking habit on the side. Internet porn... sometimes very awful, violent stuff, fed his "need for variety."

I've got a hunch the marriage is all over but the legal bills, the paperwork, and the crying. We got together in High School, and I didn't date much before him... but I DID get molested by both my step brother and step father when I was a kid. I've ALWAYS had trust issues with guys in general, but have always felt very comfortable being sexual with my WH.

First I want to say, I really did like being married and I know it's WAY too soon for me to think about dating... so no worries on that front.

I'm not gonna rush right out and look for a new Mr. Right, even though my STBX is already dating. (His favorite flavor? Drama-addicted alcoholic party girls.... just like his mom!) But the bottom line is that I really was happy and comfortable in our marriage most of the time... and I think he was, too, as much as he could be for someone keeping that kind of secret. Had I known about his porn addiction, it would have been a different story but for the most part I have tons and tons of happy memories. I miss having that closeness, that "best friend" with benefits, and the security that comes from that.

The fact that he managed to *successfully* hide this from me for all these years, plus the fact that I'm now being very casually tossed aside like an old sandwich wrapper makes me VERY nervous!

My instincts failed me miserably. How will I ever know who's trustworthy and who isn't?

Are there men who actually like a strong woman just because she's strong, and not because they want to hide behind her and let her make all the decisions so they never have to take any responsibility for anything and they can blame her if they don't get what they want? This is a big issue for me because of his "history rewrite." According to him, he gave me everything I ever wanted at the expense of what he wanted.. and that's just not true.

Aside from all those worries, I'm struggling with this horrible feeling that I'm so unattractive, I couldn't even keep my own man... my best friend. That I'm so filled with flaws that I'm completely unlovable. I'm very insecure now, and I wasn't before. And I really can't just SAY this stuff out loud to real people. It shows weakness. I think most of my friends and acquaintances tell me how "well" I'm doing, because I fake it, and save my real feelings and fears for this board.

I could use a little hope. And I plan to take lots of time to heal before I inflict myself on the unsuspecting male populace... but I'm also someone who helps ease my anxieties by preparing and studying ahead of time. I'm starting to do research on dating and stuff now, so that in a year or two, when the divorce is final I'll be less nervous and hopefully have some savvy.

I'm especially nervous because I really do need time for a friendship to develop before I feel ANY attraction towards someone. From what I'm reading, most guys expect to "get some" on the third date, and that's just NOT gonna happen.

I just sent this Plan B letter today and will be keeping to the plan. Thanks to everyone for their advice and support.

Grrr...come over here so I can slap your hand!

The good thing about getting older, is we realize that the looks we cared so much about in our early years aren't worth all that much.

Yep, I just started in Alanon.

The alcohol problem is about 6 years old, and the porn addiction has been going on since he was a kid.

He won't go to AA right now because he doesn't think he has a problem... or he thinks he just needs to "cut back". His whole family are binge drinkers. He... just like the rest of them... can go for months or weeks without a drink, and then have half a bottle of vodka in a little over an hour and NOT DIE! He thinks this is fine and dandy. So do his new friends.


Good to know. David is our Counselor. His root issue is his inability to deal with stress, unless he's seeking elevated experiences... he varies between abusing alcohol, porn, computer games, food... adrenaline sports. He's a mess.

He also does an excellent job of compartmentalizing... just like the rest of his family. So, he's doing fine at work, taking care of himself, finances, etc.

I don't think he's going to get it together, but I sent that letter earlier this afternoon, and I feel better for it... like I needed the closure.

I'll keep in mind about him not needing to understand the past to deal with his behavior. I love this guy, but I do NOT want him back in my life without his stuff together. That's why I'm using our counselor as a barometer.

Thanks!

Heh... I guess I'm ahead 'cause I didn't have em to begin with! LOL
It's tough to feel attractive when you've been tossed aside for porn and vodka.

David's our counselor. All this stuff is awesome and I wish I hadn't sent this already, but I'll save this excellent reply of yours to send to him if he tries to break my rules.

I don't think he's going to try to get around it. We've been pretty much NC for 3 months except the bills and finances. He's only tried to weasel in a couple times. My hunch is that he has about zero interest in me personally, and just wants to get on with his "new life" as fast as possible.

Well, the Plan B letter is for YOU more than him. Your peace of mind, knowing you kept your integrity.

Exactly. That's why I wanted him to have the letter. I feel better knowing that he's got a map of the way home, if he cares to use it.

No replies to the emails, and it looks like he hasn't even opened the documents with the Plan B letter.

I mailed it via regular mail this morning.

Also, I checked our finances, and realized I could see into his "personal" account.

He's been withdrawing LOTS of cash over the last few weeks... almost $500 from ATM's in the last 3 weeks!

I talked to a lawyer whom I really like and he told me I should NOT say anything to WH... it would just tip him off that I can see this account. He said I should really consider JUST FILING... and doing it NOW. It'd be about $250 to get the ball rolling if I did it myself, and the lawyer says he can always join in and help me later, by the hour if I need it.

I'm strongly considering it. I hate this, but I have a really bad feeling... after seeing him last week, looking like a stranger...

Just BAD.

WH's reply this morning.

"I have read both of your financial and personal letter to me. I wanted to make sure you know that I sincerely appreciate your writing to me, as I have hated making you feel like you are in limbo these past few months. I have been trying to learn to live independently and learn to fully appreciate what I can have, what I will have while appreciating what I have had with you in the past.

At this point in time, it is my intention to file paperwork for the dissolution of our marriage. I do not feel that I can be an independent person living with you, nor do I feel that continuing our marriage would be in either of our best interests. I can only say that I tried very hard to make things work between us, but towards the end of October I realized that if I was going to continue to grow as a person in the directions that I wanted to grow, it would have to be independently. I have faith in your own independent spirit to understand that this is the best path, even if may not be clear to you now.

It is my intention to be your friend once this is all over as your friendship is very important to me. I recognize that I have not been a good friend to you these past few months. I would eventually like to talk to you about these things but I understand it will take you time to understand and get to the point where you even want to talk with me directly. These past few months have been good for both of us to learn and grow, and I will earn your trust back as a friend, in time. I agree that we definitely have something worth preserving, and I am sorry that it is not our marriage. I will always love you Wolf, not Cougar, regardless of where else life takes me, I simply have to walk this path without you.

It is my intention to do my best to still continue to provide for your health benefits, if you wish Alimony payments then we can talk in depth about this. I will continue to work on getting the house sold and getting our mutual property sold etc. I will reply to your financial statements / ideas in full in another email."

I am heartbroken, but this is what I expected. Does this sound sane to you? or just a guy who wants to drink and fool around?

I'm sad to be reduced to just a by-line in this guy's life.

Oh boy, I nearly when I read that drivel, "It is my intention to be your friend once this is all over as your friendship is very important to me." How about [u]your intention?{/u] This is pure and simple "I want to ease my conscience about the brutal trauma I have inflicted on you."

Give me a break.

"I simply have to walk this path without you." This is another scrap the waywards pick out of the garbage can of infidelity. The Leopard said much the same thing to me: "This is part of my journey."

Here, let me punch your ticket, OK?

Does it sound sane to me? No. It sounds like an insane wayward attempting to sound sane. It strikes me as pitiful, cake-eating, immature and irresponsible. Wrapped up in a cloak of "adult-sounding" language.

Did I say ?

You know what's funny? I don't think he's ever called it a divorce. But the "dissolution of marriage" is what's on the paperwork. Makes me think he's at least looked at the paperwork.

Now I need to decide whether to wait for him to do it or pull the trigger myself... and what the hell to ask for.

He seems to think he's being very magnanimous by offering to pay my insurance and possibly alimony. He has NO idea that he's going to be MADE to do these things.

I am not responding, just going to counseling tomorrow.

This sucks, but at least it's finally MOVING.

OH...MY...GOD

What did you do in your marriage, prop him up to make him think he was Jesus Christ?

OMG

Sorry, but I can't wait til you get out there and find out what REAL men are like.

Ok Wolf, you will be better off without him so lets start with helping you.

My first Wife was not a looker but I was attracted to who she was.
My second wife looked like a Model and I was attracted to who she was.
The looks are just window dressing and someone who looks good can become very ugly when you have to deal with the pain they cause you.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I can assure you that when you are happy with yourself and are not looking for a seriuos relationship you will find someone who will fit as a friend first.

I am reminded of aline from the movie shenandoah where Jimmy stewart is asked by a youngman for the hand of his daughter.

JImmy says,"do you like her?"
Young man says,"Like her? I love her!"
JImmy says, "I have been with my wife for 40 yrs and I have not allways loved her, but I have allways liked her.

To me this showed a man who was at peace with himself and knew love was an action not an emotion.

Fred, Mel and I have all dealt with alcoholics in our lives. Dr Harley states that recovery can not even be started while alcoholics are in love with the bottle. We can waste our time tring to do the thinking for these lost souls or let them reap what they sow. They all have reasons why they drink but they are thier own worst enemy and they will drag down everyone around them while they waste our time trying to help them. Get away from this guy and take care of yourself.

Take care of you, you are worth it. Get a counsellor for you so that you can put your painful past in the past. It will take time and work but you can do this.

Someday you will have happiness again and you will know how to protect yourself. Then your next relationship can be one built from honesty and truth instaed of co-dependance and fear.

If you have children this is even more important to them.

I am 100 % on your side Wolf and my heart goes out to your situation.

Thank you, Fred. It's always good to get other folk's perception of what's going on. WH doesn't think he's an alcoholic, he doesn't think his porn addiction affected the quality of our relationship, and he is CONVINCED that I have held him back from some grand, glorious destiny.

I was always good to him. .. maybe TOO good. I had few expectations of him beyond bringing home a regular paycheck and providing entertaining companionship. And I'm sorry to say, but it seems like he's a rather typical specimen of a "real man." All my life, I've seen it... what do "real men" do? What is the one, defining characteristic I've observed from the men in my life... FOO and all my relative's relationships.

Men LEAVE. That's what they do.

Men LEAVE... imprinted on my psyche as a toddler. Seen it with my mom's 4 marriages (#3 was a child molesting alcoholic), my aunt Judy's relationship (her WH sired TWO autistic children then ran away and married some chick from Cambodia because he "couldn't handle it") and my aunt Marilyn's 2 marriages (both to alcoholics that were physically abusive) I spent a few months living at her place my first year in college so I could be there in case her #2 came back, so I could kick his @ss.

This is the big reason I never wanted to have kids. WH really wanted some. Because men leave, and I knew I didn't have the physical strength to be a single parent.

My WH lasted about 10 years longer than anyone else in the whole family, excepting my Grandpa. He and grandma have been married 60+ years.

I don't think there are very many "real men" out there... at least not from what I've seen. I don't know how I'm going to deal with my very justified trust and abandonment issues moving forward... probably the best way to deal with them is to simply avoid romantic relationships from here on out. I do great with guys as friends. Maybe that's just the way it should be for me. It would save me a lot more pain and heartache, I'm sure.

I'll be better off without the person he's turning into, that's certain.


Ok, I totally "get" that! WH isn't a handsome man by any stretch of the imagination. My attraction to him was based on our friendship, and his supportive nature and sense of humor when we first got together. I'm average looking, myself, if that. I've always been more into INNER beauty than outer.



Too true. I think one of the reasons I'm having such a hard time detaching (aside from my co-dependent issues) is that I made my promise ACTIVELY... I think WH might be mentally ill. If he wants to divorce me, that's fine. It could be the best favor he's ever done me, in time. Who knows? But real love isn't in the words... it's in what you DO.

I have a long-distance friend that's 14 years younger than me. He's like a little brother to me. On valentine's day last year, he hand made the dorkiest valentine's day card for me... and mailed it because he wanted to be sure i had SOMETHING that made me laugh on V-day, since WH wasn't living with me. WH was so pissed at him, even though we were separated. One of my FRIENDS thought of me, and made him look bad. LOL. That's love, and friendship.


Is WH an alcoholic? He sure doesn't think so. Does he have a porn addiction? He sure doesn't think so... he just MB'd to ALL that porn all the time because he "needed variety" and he was "unhappy in the marriage." Who knows what's real?

I have come to the conclusion that I have been VERY easy to gaslight. (saw that term on another thread!) I am now looking back at WH's historical behavior and seeing a lot of things that don't add up... including him dropping things that other people had supposedly said about me that were hurtful. I am wondering now, if he wasn't on some level TRYING to keep me emotionally isolated? If so, he did a fantastic job... and my natural aloofness and skepticism probably helped. Things are VERY different for me, now. I've probably never been as hurt in my life... but at the same time I've probably never been as open, or vulnerable. Instead of shutting down and withdrawing from the world, I'm engaging it. Strange, huh?


Saw David the counselor today, and he said I'm doing fine. I bought the newest edition of "Out of the Shadows" for me to read, and I brought it in for him since I was done with it. He said I'm doing fine, not withdrawing from life, and continuing to work on my issues. He told me to pretend that it wasn't WH that dumped me, but that it was the other way around. I had a hard time with that at first, but he told me that WH dumped me BECAUSE he knew he'd crossed my boundaries too many times and that I was going to dump him if he didn't dry out and stop obsessing over sex. It was a preemptive dumping... and he's right. I'd planned to end things by New Years if WH hadn't gone to AA. Period.

I have a lot to think about, rebuilding my life. I'm seeing that I need to fight to keep my horses, because they are the one thing now that still brings me joy, and a huge part of my social life revolves around my "horsey friends." Also, they are good for my medical issues... my family doc says that riding is the best exercise for me because the passive stretching works my muscles without putting them under load... helps with flexibility and keeping them from knotting up.


I don't know about that "next relationship" stuff. I just don't see an abundance of good, single men out there. I just don't. But I recognize it's WAY too early to even think about that. I'm not "keeping score"... just because WH has plucked up some low hanging fruit to get a girlfriend already doesn't mean that I'm a failure if I don't rush into something to make myself feel better about my value as a potential partner. Besides, any guy that would want to date me now isn't someone I'd want to date... it takes a special kind of person to prey on a recent divorcee who's still damaged. Oh, wait... WH's new alcoholic, drama-addicted party girl? I hear her divorce will be final next month. :p

Thanks for the support. I'm doing the best I can.

OK Wolf, I'm going to say some things that might raise the hairs on the back of some of the necks here, but that's the risk I'm taking...

I'm just four days out of WW ("The Leopard") moving out. By all measure, I should be devastated. But I'm not. In fact, I'm now sleeping (at long last) and I feel strangely free -- in a way I haven't for quite some time.

For the past few days I've been wondering if I really belong here. Oh, I wanted to save my marriage at first, and there's no question that I've learned an awful lot. I bought books and read articles, and I think I "get it" when it comes to MB.

But my story isn't the "typical" MB marriage-gone-astray tale. I think my story is better suited for Shrink4Men or another site that focuses on disordered and damaged spouses. I'm beginning to wonder if yours isn't, also.

MB is all about building strong marriages and saving marriages that have floundered. Everyone that comes here gets a lot of wonderful, loving help to further that goal. But everyone has to ask himself/herself not only if that's what they want, but also if that's for the best.

There were a few voices saying to me, "DANGER, Fred. Your M has 'disaster' written all over it." Even though I didn't want to consider the possibility, I had no choice but to pay attention to EVERYONE who was trying to help.

It turns out they were correct. The Leopard turned out to be just that. And now that she's gone, I find that I'm free of the abuse she heaped on me before the A ever began.

When I look at your signature, I see signs of the same sort of abuse. You've been together your entire adult life. How do you know anything else? Don't women in abusive marriages often stay because "better the devil you know than the devil you don't?"

Wolf, you're 20 years younger than me. Ten years younger than The Leopard. It's NOT TOO LATE to take stock of your life and think about where you want to be 10 or 20 years from now. Do you want to be asking these same questions then? I think you need to start telling yourself you are WORTH BETTER.

Just my opinion. It's free after all, so it's worth what you paid for it...