I've tried several systems: a box for paid bills, receipts, etc., a box/folder for tax stuff... nothing works because H doesn't want to follow any plan I try, doesn't want to hear about my suggestion for organizing, and doesn't want to tell me his idea for organizing. Whenever I try to get organized, he comes along behind me and mixes up the stacks/boxes/categories.

For example, when I had a box for important documents like tax forms and paid bills, H used that box for junk mail and *unpaid* bills without telling me. The first I found out about it was when bill collectors called! Since the bills weren't in the "unpaid bill" stack, I figured H had paid them.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See what is happening here????? See what this is turning into?????? Nowhere did I say I was trying to brainstorm to solve a problem. In fact I said the OPPOSITE.

I expressed gratitude for H for doing the paperwork. Which is the ONLY solution that works for him, since he doesn't want to communicate about filing systems. It bothers me tremendously to have everything who-knows-where, and the task is too monumental for me to get it done in one sitting before H can come along and rearrange things. So it's best if I completely put it out of my mind.

BUT NOW PPL ARE THINKING I NEED OR WANT SUGGESTIONS TO FIX A PROBLEM THAT WASN'T A PROBLEM UNTIL PPL STARTED SUGGESTING SOLUTIONS!!!!!!!

*SEE* why I don't post about my stuff???

*SEE* why I identify with HL who kept saying her post was not about a problem between her and her H?

ETA: ok, I see all the following posts were about NED. Yes please, let's get this thread back to Ned!!!

*HUGS*

cwmi, I totally get you. For a while there, I took on more than I could chew, but that's not the case in the present, hasn't been the case for some time. I say what I mean and mean what I say. H had her start, then she took a break, and I thought that was okay, she could finish it in the evening, while H and I were gone. I was thinking, she's a "last minute" kind of person, and would concentrate in the evening. I hadn't thought to check that assumption with him. When he shared what upset him, I apologized and promptly made amends, and I think he's okay with me now.

I looked up that book, and I like Covey's books, and it has been something that was a thorn in my side in the past, so I'll pick it up.

Jayne, please don't look at this if the idea still hurts your head.

Tools also addresses the negative self-talk very early on. When you find yourself saying something negative to yourself, ask yourself if it's true. If it is true, then say to yourself that you have the power to change that about yourself if you want to. If it is not true, then say the opposite.

I also think I remember thoughts like this being addressed in cognitive behavior therapy, like in Burns's Feeling Good book.

I can't remember, are you in counseling right now? Have you tried cognitive behavior therapy? I think it's been shown to have good results. It concentrates more on actually improving the way you think *right* *now*, regardless of the past. So it is more forward-looking, more results-oriented and goal-oriented. More designed for actual results, actual improvement.

I think Tools is basically cognitive behavior stuff.

Um, I *did* say I wasn't asking to brainstorm, it is NOT a problem, it WAS an example. A *HYPOTHETICAL* example, using my own life so as to not seem to be picking on others.


Again: It's NOT A PROBLEM. It WAS an example to prove a point. A *HYPOTHETICAL* example, using my own life so as to not seem to be picking on others.

IT'S NOT A PROBLEM. It isn't that it's not on TODAY'S list - it ain't on ANY list. NOT A PROBLEM. HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE. HYPOTHETICAL.

Here is where you asked the question, and I answered:



So, there is not a problem. We have an agreement, a solution, a system, a POJA.

The *problem* is when I feel pressure *from others* to do something *different* or to look for problems that aren't there.

If you look for problems and want to find problems, I guarantee you WILL find them, anywhere. No one is perfect. Do you want to look for the problems that have already been solved, to re-hash them, to bring up all the feelings of stress, resentment, etc. all over again? Do you want to continually bring up the same problems over and over in your own marriage, in your own life, without ever reaching an agreement, without ever saying "Well! That's nice! Look at the agreement we've reached! Look at the progress we've made!"

Why does the dog have to come enthusiastically, sit properly, look properly, and turn into the heel position properly, before she ever gets rewarded? Keep doing it that way and the dog will stop even coming, let alone get to the impressive flipping and heeling part. Sure, you could then get rid of the dog, saying it won't come... but wouldn't it be more fun to get to the point of having a dog that enthusiastically does a whole impressive routine?

What is *wrong* with saying "Problem solved, POJA reached, H and I ARE in agreement."?

This is what I was saying on HL's thread, and was the basis for my Proposition (2).

Why the need to keep bringing up past problems, re-hash them, look for something to pick apart, something that is still less than perfect? Why the need to try to read bad things into a post that doesn't describe a marriage problem, to keep asking a person a question like "Have you stopped beating your wife" when they have said repeatedly they are not (and were not!) beating their wife?

Because that question is a great example of the frustration of getting continually asked "So have you stopped being dishonest about this problem that I'm projecting, that you say is not a problem?" or "This thing you say is not a problem, do you really mean it's not that it's not a problem, just that it doesn't make the list for today? Because I don't believe you the first 10 times when you say it is not a problem."

For an analogy that maybe you could relate to: Would you feel stressed if I kept bringing up your decision to separate, and kept questioning it, questioning your intentions, asking you to look at it again and again no matter how many times you said you've reached a solution and are at peace with it? What if I kept bringing up reasons why I think you should reconsider your decision, and looked for reasons why I think it was wrong, and kept offering solutions that were different from the solution you've arrived at?

If I asked you those questions, would it increase your stress level? Independent of anything that your H did, I bet me asking those questions continually, and picking apart your decision, questioning it, asking you to reconsider it, telling you that there must be something wrong with it, that you just aren't looking at it today... I bet that would raise your stress level, regardless of anything your H was doing.

Jayne I guess I cannot compare your marriage to mine. My husband and i each have our own tax boxes. We used to file separately but now that we file together, at the end of the year we combine our tax boxes and go for it. I only keep my own records in my own tax box. If you had to you could use a locking box and just save your tax info and reciepts.

Then, you would not blame him for losing YOUR part of the tax information. Unless he expects you to save ALL the tax info, both yours and his.

Then, some other idea may work better...

I love this idea! I think I'll make it a whole room... not a large room, mind you, remember how he is, but he *did* agree to let me have the storage room where we keep the cat litter box, for my sewing room. Maybe I should keep all the paperwork I don't want rearranged in that room.

Which brings me back to my screwy nutty problem, since I'd like to use the table we were gonna put in there...


I'm not blaming him for losing anything. HE doesn't lose things! He's wonderful like that. One of us has to be, and thankfully it's him!

And no way does he expect me to save ALL the tax info. He's WAAAAAAAAYYYYY smarter than to leave that job to me!!!!!!! he just hopes I don't lose my tax stuff between the time I get the form at work and the time I put it in his capable hands. lol


We got it now, but thanks anyway.

Ned, just fyi, the trust book is by the Original Covey's son. The Original is R. Covey, the son is M.R. Covey, who appears to be the III Stephen, and he has a son named Stephen as well, so watch for Stephen M. R. ?. Covey books in the future, lol.

NED...so you have the practicalities of the separation laid out; what you want and he has what he wants...the visualization of it. Functionality.

Which is only part. What's your goal for the separation and what's his goal?

When you set your goal...then list what you really want to result from it...highest honesty.

You want him to call Steve Harley. Okay. Put that on your list...put all your wishes there, too...what you hope for and what you don't want to happen.

Then tonight, explain to H what you're doing...figuring out your goal, your fears, your hopes, wishes, etc...and ask him to do the same. Then let that part go.

This will help you clarify for you what you're really after, what you're doing and what your stuff is...and leave in place that the Separation is real, going on the 22nd...this isn't for you to decide to separate or not...this is for you to know why you decided to and what you want most.

Keep your eyes on yourself for the list...will be a big pull for your if-onlys and what-ifs of what he did/didn't choose to come to the foreground.



I can safely say one thing on your list was feeling talked down to, patronized, mocked. He's not doing that right now and you have the desire to second-guess the whole plan. Not just one thing on the list.

So the lists give balance, too.

Also, did you check to make sure you cleared up your internal condescension? Your inner parental voice, where you admonish, shame and guilt yourself?

Ever see the raw fear in the eyes of someone who's patronizing you? How their assumptions are all over their face, making their tone and actions totally about them, reacting to their own stuff?

Look for it...part of that loving detachment. Won't have practice now, since he stopped it. Look for it when you guys watch tv together...point out when you see a character doing it, and say, "H, do you perceive him as condescending just then?"

Checking your own stuff through the aid of your real partner.

Btw, I just re-read Day 2 on Flylady.net...two nights ago. LOL. I'm introducing YS to it. He said he doesn't listen to negative talk in his head. Said he knows it's there but doesn't pay it no mind.

yeahrightsure. ROFL

But okay...that's his for now. He's not in terrible turmoil or miserable. Maybe happiness is partially what we strive for because it dampens the negative voices? I dunno. Mine kept going, just changed course to warn me happiness was false, gonna vanish, that I was going to screw it up anyway.

Hmmm.

And what do you do when you catch your old comfortable DJs in reaction to H?

As for DD13's essay...he set the deadline for her...and you did remind her. That was the boundaries he set up. Don't forget DD13 is equally powerful in that equation. She is the one who didn't hold to her part...and if this was first draft deadline, not final, might be a way to renegotiate.

And to NOT go on your schedule date is saying that it's okay to cross your own boundaries...for both H and you. Instead of exampling to DDs that you "keep promises to ourselves and others, not based on feelings."

Because spending that time together, doing the 90% of life by showing up and seeing what it's like beats the dickens out of living by predictions.

And again, inherent forgiveness for being caught up in our own fears, fear of pain, fear of anger, fear of condemnation, guilting, shaming...and reacting to control what hasn't come to pass...instead of our eyes on our simple boundaries, holding ourselves to what is within our control...and calling ourselves when we end up trying to manipulate an outcome instead.

Steps, babysteps, steps and stops. NED...acknowledge his fears and do not act from them...nor your own. Go on the date, anyway. Smile, understand, repeat to confirm or clarify you really heard his stuff as his stuff. And go, anyway.

You didn't fail to get her to do her essay...you didn't fail to keep your promise to remind her (boundary of once, twice, how many times did you agree to?)...and H didn't fail, either. She didn't do it. Begin again...rough drafts, first drafts, second, set multiple deadlines...even timelines (spend one hour a day on rough draft for three days; and POJA how much interaction, talking with you and H and sis about her ideas...we teach how to self-inspire...from one sentence, a whole theme, three sequential visualizations; not over helping and not under helping...

and find out what she might fear about this private school (procrastination is fear).

Balance...commitment...and if you will stay open to seeing the ironies...God's way of signaling you how much he's at work, pulling for you, providing for you...mirroring in many ways, answering our prayers with yes's and no's.

Both answers.

Acknowledge H's fears without measurement...acknowledge he measures his stuff...his disappointment...and acknowledge his expectation versus wishfulness, desire...goal. His part, limitation...even as you acknowledge to him your own.

In it together...parenting, not parentsing...you guys really are doing it...and IMO, have always made your daughters a high, if not, top priority...and embarking on the journey of a teen-aged daughter, in da house...

oh my.



Wider options, choices, NED. Don't accept just one way...listen and repeat what you're really agreeing to, similar to CWMI, and don't be afraid to ask for more or less...your agreement is as important as his, as anyone's. And say, "I like where you're going and I want to go further" or "I'm not aboard with how far you want to go with this in one day. How about <blank>"...this is a trust-building exercise...where you aren't losing sight of what your H wants, no discounting or taking it further yourself than he stated...POJA on multiple levels.

Safe to do so...before you commit. And in your lists, put "fear of him reacting to his feelings instead of acting from his promises."

His condescension, however, may have stopped for now BECAUSE he is choosing to not react to his feelings, and is acting to his promise. In that one way. Crystal clear for him...not what he wanted, anyway.

You don't know until he tells you. On your list, marriage is now your top priority, over the kids...so that you'll keep your eye on it when agreeing to and disagreeing about the kids.

Thinking you'll be "listing" to starboard (or port) for a little while.



Thank you for responding to my questions, sharing your life with us.

LA

Bubbles...thank you for the two-box suggestion.

I love it. I'm implementing it right away for this year.

Thank you so much!

Jayners...you solved a problem I didn't know I had (and yes, I have it, too)...

It was all about me, not you. :P~~~~

As usual. LOL

LA

fwiw, I have a spouse who does not keep records for taxes, I assume because I take care of that, and I'm of the taxanal variety who ASKS for the receipts, year-end stub, etc and keeps them myself in a folder. I don't assume he will keep that stuff for me (the tax preparer). I assume he won't, and I prepare for that.

I also fling my 1040 out the door no later than Feb 1. lol. The downside is that I've spent my refund before the majority have even filed.

Having to submit the FAFSA last year gave us incentive to get the taxes done super early. You can file the FAFSA as early as Jan 1 but you must have the previous years' taxes. Has no one told them that W2s aren't due to employees until Jan 31?

Ah, but my poor DH has to contend not only with keeping me from losing stuff, but also with (last year) two incomes in two different states in the U.S. plus an income in Canada, and selling one house in one U.S. state, selling another house in Canada, and buying a house in a different U.S. state. So, filing both U.S. and Canadian returns.

My head hurts just thinking about it. I am very grateful for him.

Jayne, my brain hurts for you having to file both U.S. and Canadian taxes. I have the same problem with the Australian vs U.S. thing. One year I put my income in the wrong box on the U.S. form, and the U.S. send me a nice big check as a refund. Trouble was, I was declaring Australian income.

So, then I had to do a month's worth of phoning at inconvenient hours and fussing to get it all sorted out. And I had to give the money back! Bleh, I definitely want to hire a professional tax person this year. Plus the Aus tax year goes from July-June and not Jan-Dec. Owie, there goes my head again!

On the answering the cell phone thing, this is a definite LB for my husband. He has a job that requires him to have his phone on him 24-7. Me not so much. I've trained most of my business contacts to get ahold of me via email.

I get a mobile phone call about twice a week, but maybe not for a week or two. So the phone is infrequently used. Plus, I don't always have my phone in my pocket. Its usually buried in a purse or a backpack somewhere.

So when dh makes one of his infrequent calls, my cell's either:

a) dead
b) has no money on it
c) buried or
d) somewhere else.

It drives him INSANE!!! I've been trying to be better lately, but it takes a real effort.

NED, you tried to make it work with the old codger alcoholic. I am sorry he is so creepy to make your life and other peoples lives miserable. I hope you have strength to leave him., he is so old and so alcohol addicted that most likely he will die soon anyway.

This I remember reading now, LOL, thanks for your patience and the reminder. Good for you for finding a POJA on that! And Bubbles, thanks for the ideas! I have an accountant H who has taken care of this for quite some time now.


My goal, LA, is to have a peaceful house. Somewhere that I look forward to going to. Thanks for giving me a safe place to talk about this. I feel like I have rebuilt most of my life from the ground up. My relationship with my kids, my FOO, my H, work. I feel fearless, confident, at ease, joyful, most of the time. And then there are the times H is in attack mode, and I feel overwhlemed, knocked to the ground by it. Like after all this, this monster, not H himself, but his anger, condescension, is still here, and I'm a deer in the headlights.

Cwmi, if you are reading, I think this may be what folks respond to so strongly in your posts, this thing that I, and I think others, have experienced earlier in life, maybe on the job, maybe from an older sibling, maybe from an overwhelmed parent. That old Villager, the snarky, laughing, mocking attitude. Like the other person was going to keep the attacks coming, and I knew they had more stamina that I did. That in the end, the other person's anger was going to "win", to push me down and humiliate me again.

It's a deer in the headlights only for a little bit now. I can manage my fears, put them back into perspective. I'm not ruled by feelings, State of Conflict, my life is not power struggle. Win-lose is just an illusion, we're exactly where we need to be, to grow in the ways we want to grow. H doesn't want this power struggle anymore, either, the man I love is in there, and that as I heard in program, just like anyone else, he "needs the most love at the point of being the least lovable." I don't need to fear this thing, my boundaries keep me safe today. I am going to mistakenly, momentarily, feel embarrassed and humiliated and less than sometimes, but I have a plan for that. I'm going to be okay, remember that I'm not less than, that I'm exactly what I was made to be, and I have a joyous life, anyway.

My goal of what I really want, would be a loving life with my H and family. The whole MB deal, UA time, FC, the four rules: care, time, protection, honesty. Yes, calling Steve, getting a plan, cutting out the drinking, replacing the porn with fun together, getting a permanent job that doesn't require travel, in a place all of us would like to live. Ideally, here.

But like you warned me, some of those things are out of my 50%, so I look at reality, what I can do, what I can realistically shoot for, instead of living in fantasy of what ifs that have not happened. And it'll be a joyous life, plenty more than I could ask for, anyway. So I want to go ahead with the separation, take a year or two respite, divorce, and then move forward. I want to keep up with the things I'm enjoying, watching my kids grow, like you said, the 90% of being present. I've lost 20 pounds so far, and I'm working to continue to get to my goal.

What I don't want to happen would be to be like one of my mom's friends when I was growing up, complaining to her when we were in earshot, why can't their man see what a good thing he has. I don't want the kids to grow up seeing their mom chase their dad like a hopeless lovesick person. And to see that women need to accept being seen and treated as "less than" instead of as valuable partners.

I wouldn't want to move out, go back, and it hadn't really changed. And a little bit, I fear also making wrong choices about guys in the future I know the boundaries took more work for me to maintain when H was travelling, and this may get more intense than that. I think I'll be okay with that, though, I think the quote was something like having strong boundaries when our thoughts are weak, or something like that.


Oh, man, they did sneak in there, huh!


See, LA, it's not all-or-nothing. I can't sat that he's not doing that anymore at all. What I can say i that he's changed his intent, his permissions, and he's catching himself for the most part now.


Yes, LA, this was a big part of Step 9 for me, making amends to those I had harmed. I put me at the top of the list. I catch myself when I'm thinking something negative about myself. And I'm "hanging with the winners," surrounding myself with others who are living a gentle life.


Like it was yesterday


I do this, not to educate, not because this is gone from my life today and I have no other place to practice. DD13 gets these attitudes, and with her it's much easier, to detach with love, to know it's hormones, not about me, not about her either, for very long. The listen and repeat you shared is great with this. I hear you think I'm powerful enough to make you.... No, I'm not that powerful. When you find the action that reflects what you do want, you'll do that, instead." And to be honest, this stuff just aggravates me. We got the kids a Wii, and a Sims game, and one character is ornery, and the girl sheriff just follows him around like a puppy dog, trying to change his mood. So he steals stuff and rejects her. And she says, "Oh, he's just lonely." Rinse and repeat. So believe you me, we did talk about that.

Checking your own stuff through the aid of your real partner.


I own them, and make amends. Sometimes I don't catch it right away, and he points it out.


See, we hadn't clarified any of that. It wasn't important to me, whether it was first draft or final, done Saturday or just started, so I didn't feel the need to. But H shared, he feels like he's taking too much ownership, wants me to manage this with him, so I can do that, no problem. And like cwmi said, if it's something I didn't want, wasn't enthusiastic about, I can speak up.


My friend had gotten us free tickets to a riverboat cruise that usually cost $40/person, so I was excited. The kids had went with my friend when her family was in town last week, so the kids were excited. DD13 was disappointed we didn't go, tried to get us to POJA. My friend called, because we were supposed to stop by her house on the way to the boat to pick up the tickets, and she was concerned that we hadn't come and the time the boat was to leave was getting close.

But I didn't feel like I was crossing my boundaries. I was dressed and ready when H changed his mind. It wasn't my decision to own. My friend thought I should go over her house, she had another friend of ours over, but that felt to me like an escalation, so I just stayed home. Sometimes folks are no longer enthusiastic, so I thought, better to wait and take the cruise when we are both enthusiastic.


I like that idea. I did affirm that I was willing to go, DD13 suggested some solutions, and I did, too.


Mischoice of words, there, we didn't fail. It's done now, and beautiful. And we had fun working on it.


Oh my indeed, LOL. So far, so good. Huge growth opportunity here.


I like this, LA, I know that there are solutions to these issues. And this sounds like a great one. Totally I understand about not committing to things we're not enthusiastic about. I'm really happy for this opportunity DD has.

Thanks for the reminder!

What did this mean?


Same here, LA, thanks for your calming presence.

Happy, I didn't have my cell on me this morning, and DD13 was calling me to ask me to pick her up from school, because she was sick! And this is one day after she gave me a beautiful essay she wrote at school abotu how there for her I was! Oh, the irony!

Bubbles, wow, I hope that I'm protecting myself and my kids from a miserable life! That's one of my main responsibilities. I know it's hard to see someone else miserable. I got to tell you, Bubbles, I do feel pretty happy with my life, and this will be just another step in that direction.

Thank you for posts about not answering cell phone calls...soothed me.



Neddy, as for "listing"...a lame joke...I've heard it as a nautical description, when you see a boat leaning right or left...

For clarification - the boat ride was for all for of you?

LA

The kids went on the boat ride the day after Christmas with my friend and her family, who were visiting from out of town. They had girls the same age as my girls. H didn't want to go, because it's pricey, and we were already paying for the kids, so he asked me if I'd go to the movies that night instead, so we did that, took a date night. Everyone who went raved about the cruise, so my friend redoubled her efforts to find the passes she had, so H and I could go last weekend, have that experience they'd shared the week before. I wish everyone had friends of the marriage like that.

I like that picturre, listing to one side. Have you ever heard the "Cupid shuffle"? The girls and I were dancing last night, my neighbors' daughter, too. H came home, and I didn't sit down, embarassed, afraid of criticism, I kept dancing. I'm happy I didn't project, because there wasn't any criticism. I love these moments, feeling free together