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Hold,

Yes, I hear you. You see for years I thought we were "working" on it and found out I was the only one working on it. Do you have any F%$^&ing idea what that did to my psyche? That is when I turned into No More Mr. Nice Guy and she could sense it.

bjs,

I completely understand what you are saying, but it was like the chicken and the egg and we (or I) was working on it since she started refusing from the beginning. The chronic refusals and what she said and did crushed me so much that I did not feel safe and secure initiating and eventually I did not feel safe and secure bringing the subject up, so I do understand.

Hold and I are in similar places in that it is now their opportunity to "work" on it. If she wants more safety and security, she's going to have to make it safe and secure for me, that's all, and if she doesn't than I'm ok with it.

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I don't blame you. To do otherwise is to be in long-term Plan A-type behavior. Unconditional love, personal sacrifice. Both not recommended, around here.


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Yeah, a bastardized Plan A as you slowly loose your mind thinking that one more request she made in order for her to have SF will do it, and it doesn't, but "The next thing will". Uh, hehe, uh hee, uh hehe

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themud

I do understand,

I made it unsafe for my h by refusing sex early in our marriage. He made it unsafe for me by having an EA. He hasn't done much to make me feel safe that another EA will never happen. In fact we just talked the other day about what are boundary crossings for EA's and he could only come up with being secretive. OUCH.

I do understand to some degree what it feels like to be constantly rejected or your need not met. One of mine is conversation not my top but in there. My h know this, knows he isn't meeting it, knows that it can put me in a vulnerable position to have it filled by others, knows that others are filling, yet has no plans to change it.

soooo........what does one do. I don't want it filled by anyone else I want it filled by him. I haven't felt safe in years with him however I keep taking those steps to improve me and to make those steps towards him. I'm not even sure if this is going to work. I'm not sure I will ever fill safe with him.

However I get to a place where I feel strong enough and I take those steps towards him. Sometimes he surprises me sometimes not. However each time I see him make those baby steps to. It gives me hope, encouragement only later to be crushed once again. So I do understand. However I would much rather keep doing positive steps for me and my marriage so that in the end whether it makes it or not I can live with myself and the knowledge that I did everything possible even if my spouse did not.

I understand rejection for a man in the sexual department is one of the cruelest things a wife can do to a man. Your wife's rejection of you should belong in her lap. I wish you and Hold could see that it is not a reflection of the kind of men you guys are. That you could release that hurt and pain to regain your ability to see that you are not defined by your wive's rejection on you. I'm not sure if this makes any sense and its not coming out on here the way I want to say it.

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Originally Posted By: themud
Yeah, a bastardized Plan A as you slowly loose your mind thinking that one more request she made in order for her to have SF will do it, and it doesn't, but "The next thing will". Uh, hehe, uh hee, uh hehe


I used to believe if I lost enough weight, colored my hair the right color, cut my hair the right way, kept the house as clean as possible, encouraged him enough, admired him enough, wore the right clothes, that he would........... yes it is crazy making sometimes. I do understand.

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Yes it is painful. I can only think of my sil who cannot have a child herself and feel like life itself has rejected her. I feel bad for her, but at times think, "why doesn't she adopt?". She doesn't want to adopt and although it's close the fact is she cannot have a child.

For so long I had this feeling wanting SF and knowing I will not get it, although it's so close and that pain was to my core. I have cried alone from the pain. I will never get those year back when I could at the drop of a hat and wanted to at the drop of a hat. Those are gone and stolen by someone who was to protect and to serve, to have and to hold. It's painful to think she didn't care and admits it and admits being selfish. If I would've known I probably would have left then, instead she lied about trying and working at it when all along she wasn't. Safe and Secure? How do I know she is trying her hardest? How do I know this will last? By signing that contract she has given me the ability to see with my own eyes that there's hope and when I'm feeling that pain, I can pull it out of my wallet and read it, unless of course it's another ploy.

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Originally Posted By: bjs
If you wife agrees to having sex with you, do you want to have sex when she is feeling resentful towards you?? When she is angry with you?? When she is hurt by something you have said?? When she feels she has to because its one of your EN?? Because it's the only way to save your marriage according to you at this point in time??


I am very torn about those questions.

Part of me says yes. I want sex no matter how she feels. She wanted date nights and vacations and presents even when they were painful for me. She wanted compliments and admiration even when she spent all our savings, ran up huge debts and gained 70 pounds. She didn't stop wanting what she wanted just because I didn't feel like providing it. Now it is her turn to provide no matter how she feels.

Part of me says no. But probably not for the reason you might imagine. Not to spare her feelings. But because I am disgusted that I so often accepted lousy sex. So if she merely offered to lie there and let me do my thing while her mind flies of to "Planet Mrs. Hold". In other words, lousy sex. Because her anger or fear or pain prevents her from offering more than that. Then there is no need for us to bother. But if she could make the sex good for me (I used to want the sex to be good for her, but at this point I figure that is her responsibility), I would accept it and thank her for it.

And hopefully feel good about it. I used to feel bad about having sex when the woman wasn't "into it". Now I feel like a chump for being so "noble". Now I just want to be selfish. And figure if she wants the sex to be good for her then she can ask for what she needs. I am more than willing to use fingers or tongue or toys to make it good for her if she shares with me what she enjoys. Or if she is willing to explore together if she doesn't already know. But I am no longer going to take on the responsibility for making it good for her if she will not share her experience with me.


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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I have been reading the recent posts on themud's thread. Several women have said "you need to make it safe for her, she can sense your resentment, and it prevents her from feeling safe".

In my case, that is the whole point. I am NOT safe for Mrs. Hold. I want and need sex. When there is no SF, I resent her. I am not going to stop feeling that way unless and until my need for SF has been met consistently and abundantly for a significant period of time. If our SF depends on her feeling safe with me, there will never be SF between us. I guess I do not love her enough to make it safe for her.

Maybe if we had worked this out earlier in our marriage I could have given her the time and space to feel safe without pressure from me for sex. But we are long past that. I want sex and I want it now and I don't care whether that puts pressure on her or makes her feel unsafe. She can feel safe later.

Which is why I feel we are incompatible. She is a rape victim. I know her need for safety is even stronger than for other women. And the requirement for me to be safe even more important. And I can no longer be that for her.


You overlook one of the strong premise of MB, if there is a disease, addiction or abuse, MB will not likely work.

If and when you fix yourself, and if and when she fixes herself, only then MB will have a better change of working.


-- Still JM --

Met `82, Steady May`86, Married Jul`95. D12, S9, D3. MB`ing since Apr`02 to fall back "in love."

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Hold, what do we tell our kids when they are little and they do something to "get back" at someone who hurt them?

"Two wrongs don't make a right"

(yeah, yeah, I know, but three rights make a left...)

Kudos, BTW for putting responsibility for her own enjoyment of sex squarely where it belongs.

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Originally Posted By: bjs
Hold,

my heart does hurt for you and themud, however I think you guys can make it, cause you keep trying.

couple questions for you if you don't mind.

If you wife agrees to having sex with you, do you want to have sex when she is feeling resentful towards you??


I'm not hold or mud, but I will answer based on my experience.
When I was at a point of feeling complete UNMET SF, any sex was sex and I took it.

It was up to me to determine and differentiate what is "bad sex," "duty devotional," "quickie sex," and "love making."

I could not quite make the distinction on on some of those without regular sex.

Originally Posted By: bjs
When she is angry with you??

It depends on how she expresses her anger. If she agrees to say quickie sex, then she starts complaining during, making irritated gestures during, or any overt actions I perceive a turn off means it's "bad sex" and I would stop and refuse to participate further.

Originally Posted By: bjs
When she is hurt by something you have said??

It is her responsibility to communicate her feelings. I do not control her feelings.

Originally Posted By: bjs
When she feels she has to because its one of your EN??

That is her choice to meet my needs, so long as I express my needs to her. There is nothing wrong with duty or devotion sex, so long as both perceive it as such.

Originally Posted By: bjs
Because it's the only way to save your marriage according to you at this point in time??

I *was* in that perception, where the lack of SF felt like it was the only thing holding the marriage together, and felt like when SF is never to happen, the M is done.

But when I did proceed to think and discuss D, there were "other important factors" or values for me to consider--such as kids, and financial impact.


Last edited by Still_JM; 01/13/10 04:15 PM.

-- Still JM --

Met `82, Steady May`86, Married Jul`95. D12, S9, D3. MB`ing since Apr`02 to fall back "in love."

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Still,

Yes there are other responsibilities that override lack of SF, like kids etc.

I use to want sex no matter how I was treated, but no not anymore. If she is mean I don't want it and that is part of the jab, that part of that high libido is gone and will most likely never come back. Those years wasted while she didn't try to work on M. I am trying to get past the fact that she didn't try and I have lost years of SF b/c of her unwillingness and selfishness.

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Being in Plan A with my H myself I have been reading this thread with interest. I have 2 thoughts to contribute.

First, I'm hearing a lot of quite bitter resentment over not getting SF. I'm wondering if the MB program fosters a sense of 'entitlement' to SF. But then again that is not what I understand by the MB approach to SF - Husbands are NOT entitled to SF. It's more that SF will naturally 'happen' if the wife's emotional needs are being met and there are no lovebusters.

Second. I thought Plan A was meant to mean a complete erradication of love busters. I would have thought that a HUGE lovebuster would be conveying (even with body language and behavior not just words) an attitude of resentment and anger when SF didn't happen. Kind of like a 'body language' AO. So I'm thinking if I was male and trying plan A I would spend 1-3 months of falling over myself to not convey any sense of anger and instead be the epitome of reassurance when there is no SF. i.e. ZERO expectations of SF. (what DR. Harley calls being an angel) - No resentment.
It's essential IMHO that the wife has a good long period of time feeling and truly believing that there is absolutely no pressure and no expectation of SF. After THAT then if there is still no SF even though this and all other LB's have been erradicated and EN's are being met. Then and only then can you say hand on heart - maybe this will never work.

Just my 2 cents. Sorry if any of this is off the mark I'm still trying to understand ramifications of plan A myself.




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No one is entitled to have their EN's met... whether SF or anything else.

But if you want your spouse to feel love for you (which is the entire premise of MB) then you will chose to meet your spouses EN in a way you can both feel enthusiastic about.

The problem is that if a spouse is sexually averse, then there is no arrangement they can feel enthusiastic about, and the need for SF is not met in any way.

That stinks. It's not entitlement, but it's certainly not building love, and the like of it undoubtedly withdraws love.

I would also add that SF is slightly different in that there is no way to get that need met (morally) from anyone else once you are married.

It's stupid to ignore this EN, and spouses who do that to the higher libido spouse are relying on the good will and moral character of their spouse not to have an affair... They are not protecting their marriage, they are not ensuring their spouse feels in love with them.


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Originally Posted By: veejay
First, I'm hearing a lot of quite bitter resentment over not getting SF.


Yes, I am very bitter and resentful about the lack of sex in our marriage.

Quote:
I would have thought that a HUGE lovebuster would be conveying (even with body language and behavior not just words) an attitude of resentment and anger when SF didn't happen. Kind of like a 'body language' AO. So I'm thinking if I was male and trying plan A I would spend 1-3 months of falling over myself to not convey any sense of anger and instead be the epitome of reassurance when there is no SF. i.e. ZERO expectations of SF. (what DR. Harley calls being an angel) - No resentment.


BTDT. We did marriage counselling for 8 years. During parts of that we went months without sex (like 9 months). We saw a sex therapist who said "no sex until I gave you permission". I was fine with that. Went with the program. No asking for sex. Good positive attitude. My wife refused to do any of the "homework" (well, to be fair I think she did it 1 time in 16 weeks). I spent plenty of time eliminating love busters and "stuffing" down my resentment over the lack of sex.

Quote:
After THAT then if there is still no SF even though this and all other LB's have been erradicated and EN's are being met. Then and only then can you say hand on heart - maybe this will never work.


Which is where I find myself today. Done the program. Got told to shove it. Waiting for the kids to be out of the house so I can finally take the action that is the natural consequence of knowing this will never work.

Quote:
Just my 2 cents. Sorry if any of this is off the mark I'm still trying to understand ramifications of plan A myself.


I think you have a very good understanding of the MB principles and of Plan A. I wish you the best good fortune in resolving whatever marital issues lead you to arrive at this forum.


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Originally Posted By: Telly
No one is entitled to have their EN's met... whether SF or anything else.


Interesting that you should post this today.

On the way out of the house today, I told Mrs. Hold "have a nice day" (as I do pretty much every day if she is home and awake when I leave). Today she was standing near the door, so she took a step toward me and leaned in for a kiss. I aimed for her cheek but she turned her head and gave me a quick peck on the lips. She seemed quite pleased with herself and said "after all, I am not a friend".

As I have said before, in other circumstaces, I might have felt pleased with her behavior. As it is, I was angry. In my mind, she was basically saying "I am your wife, and I am entitled to a kiss on the lips." My mind was screaming "no, at this point you are not entitled to ANYTHING on account of being my wife!"

She has made it clear that I am not entitled to anything on acocunt of being her husband. Which, as Telly says, is the correct position to take. But it is a 2-way street. Just as I am not entitled to sex just because I am her husband, she is not entitled to kisses on the lips just because she is my wife. She wants to be reassured that she retains the status of wife, and what she sees as the entitlements of that position. But as Telly says, there are no entitlements. Hypocritical. Makes my blood boil.


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veejay,

Seeing SF as the EN of one spouse is the basis for resentment at having to serve that need unwillingly. Feeling entitled to SF can create resentment over having such an important need ignored.

Changing the normal reaction to being rejected from hurt expressed as anger is important, not just for the outward effect on the relationship, but also in changing one's attitude towards the sexual relation from SF of an EN to something on a higher level.

For most men, SF is not different than for women because they are genetically wired to procreate, to become aroused more quickly, and that means they usually have a higher sex drive than their wives. But men have the same underlying source of sexual feelings for their wives that wives have for their husbands: affection, trust and security. This is love, and the sexual act is about expressing this affection for his wife, and about receiving love from his wife. The hormonal component of libido is so strong that it often overpowers these emotions in men, and their wives see only the physical side of sex.

Most women who refuse to engage in sexual relations and play also are unaffectionate and even practice love busters such as insults, demeaning comments, and independent behavior. All this sends a message to her husband that she does not love him, and she cannot be trusted.

The danger in getting enough self-control over denial of SF to not express anger or resentment is that this is a behavior of distancing. It cannot help restore romantic love, unless the wife realizes what is going on, ceases her LBs, and expresses affection through conversation, UA time and recreation with her husband in order to send signals to him that she wants to connect and restore the relationship. Otherwise, he will just be harboring and building resentment, or shutting down the rest of his feelings for her.

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Originally Posted By: Retread
veejay,

Seeing SF as the EN of one spouse is the basis for resentment at having to serve that need unwillingly. Feeling entitled to SF can create resentment over having such an important need ignored.

Changing the normal reaction to being rejected from hurt expressed as anger is important, not just for the outward effect on the relationship, but also in changing one's attitude towards the sexual relation from SF of an EN to something on a higher level.

For most men, SF is not different than for women because they are genetically wired to procreate, to become aroused more quickly, and that means they usually have a higher sex drive than their wives. But men have the same underlying source of sexual feelings for their wives that wives have for their husbands: affection, trust and security. This is love, and the sexual act is about expressing this affection for his wife, and about receiving love from his wife. The hormonal component of libido is so strong that it often overpowers these emotions in men, and their wives see only the physical side of sex.

Most women who refuse to engage in sexual relations and play also are unaffectionate and even practice love busters such as insults, demeaning comments, and independent behavior. All this sends a message to her husband that she does not love him, and she cannot be trusted.

The danger in getting enough self-control over denial of SF to not express anger or resentment is that this is a behavior of distancing. It cannot help restore romantic love, unless the wife realizes what is going on, ceases her LBs, and expresses affection through conversation, UA time and recreation with her husband in order to send signals to him that she wants to connect and restore the relationship. Otherwise, he will just be harboring and building resentment, or shutting down the rest of his feelings for her.


Wow. Excellent post!

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Originally Posted By: Telly
The problem is that if a spouse is sexually averse, then there is no arrangement they can feel enthusiastic about, and the need for SF is not met in any way.

But how would one differentiate between a general 'sexual aversion' that has nothing to do with the H's behavior and a 'sexual aversion' that is a reaction to the H's behavior? It seems that the best shot at getting at the truth is to be a selfless 'Angel' for 3 months and THEN there's at least a fighting chance of seeing what the true problem is. Then and only then has any partner earned the right to declare a possible general 'sexual aversion' (that is completely independent of ANY partner's behavior) as the cause of the SF problems - that's the way I see it anyway.

But then if 'resentment' is an LB for the 'resented' partner it strikes me as enormously difficult to erradicate. I personally don't think it's something that can be 'faked'. The 'resented' partner will still feel it IMO - and therefore still be lovebusted by it. The way I see it, the only way to achive true erradication of the 'resentment' lovebuster is for the Plan A partner to actually and truly not feel resentful. Now that's got to be a hard thing to achieve and I wonder if anyone ever has. It's a classic catch 22.

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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Done the program. Got told to shove it.


Oh so you followed Plan A and your wife confirmed that you were meeting all her EN's and had stopped all LB's? And she still doesn't want any SF? So I assume she's realized in her own mind that her sexual aversion is nothing to do with you and she's confirmed this to you?

I'm so sorry, you must feel awful - I know I would. But at least you now know that her aversion has absolutely nothing to do with you or your behavior.

So now you must be in Plan A 1/2 - like a 'holding period' until you can put plan B into effect? Which raises the question of how is one supposed to behave towards their partner in the period 'between' Plan A and Plan B?

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Most women who refuse to engage in sexual relations and play also are unaffectionate and even practice love busters such as insults, demeaning comments, and independent behavior. All this sends a message to her husband that she does not love him, and she cannot be trusted.

Just a comment. Years ago when I was a teenager, I worked with a girl who told me that she purposefully dressed down and did things so as not to attract the opposite sex.

Your comment above got me thinking that perhaps the lack of affection and LBs could be that person's tools to help her not appear desirable to her mate. That way the struggle with SF - that whole issue is less of an issue for her than it would be otherwise, at least in her mind.


Sooly

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"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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