I would have to agree that MOST people have been in #1 at some point. It is what we do in #1 that would lead us to #2-#15. I remember hearing things out of WH mouth like "It is like POSOW and I are brother and sister. Our values and beliefs are so much alike. I have NEVER met anyone, other than you, who I could share with like that. When I was worried about the way I treat our DSx2 I would talk to OW and get advice. She is such a good friend." I was scared and asked WH to stay away but it didn't happen and now I am where I am.

I have been in #1, but I didn't take the #2 step because my alarm bells went off in my own head. I LISTENED. MOST WS don't LISTEN and that is where the problem is. It gets them to the next step. Each step seems small but when you look at getting from #1-#15 without the ones in between, I don't think many of them would have done it.

I can't say that I thought that the "sharing common interests" part was the danger; it was the conversation that was the danger. I saw anything other than two minutes of chit-chat as improper.

It would be dangerous to talk comfortably, even if it was entirely one-way, without "common interest". My talking about my job to my builder. My talking about my schooldays. My talking about HIS marriage; I knew these men before they worked for me, so I could have done this, and did not.

One father of my daughter's friend, who paints our house, went through a divorce. His wife obtained a court order to get him to leave, and he had to move far away from his children (because he could not afford to rent in London). He told me some of this at first when we were in the house alone, and my heart bled for him at the same time that I squirmed with discomfort (and kept in mind that I was only hearing his side of the story). I thought about my own horrible marriage and hoped it would never come to that for us. I tried to find the right way of showing sympathy very "properly" whilst curtailing the conversation - and I never opened the subject again unless my H were present. (Because our children used to play together, this man has sometimes come round in the evening to give an estimate and stayed for coffee. I could ask how things were during those times.) Even with my H present, I asked how things were going, said I was sorry and I kept it short. My H hated hearing about other people's marriages so he never kept the conversation going either.

I have never, not once, been for a coffee or a drink with a male colleague (in 20 years of marriage). I have had to go to a business lunch with different men on a one-to-one basis about 5 times during my marriage and I have hated every minute of them. I hate eating with strangers, I hate having to small talk in such a close situation - I can do it at a party - and I hate the whole business of being careful about what signals are being given.

I have never been the last one in the bar or coffee lounge when several colleagues go for a break together; I have never wanted to be. I usually want to get home for the kids, or if it is the Christmas party, for which I have made an arrangement with my H, I leave when the majority leaves. I think I always knew that doing otherwise would be giving a signal that I am up for intimacy on some level.

You made a comment in an earlier post about "bar people" and "strip club people" (not that I mentioned strip clubs). My point was not about such people, but about exactly the sort of people that the article seemed to be about; colleagues, church colleagues, neighbours. My H and OW were linked through a workplace committee, on which she was a volunteer. (They did not exactly work together, because she was not employed by his organisation.) The committee often went to the bar after the formal meeting. H and OW must have known that they fancied each other; in any case, they were happy to be the last ones at the bar and then she kissed him, since he seemed determined not to make the first move. (This is what she told her H, who told me.)

That didn't make them "bar people" and I wasn't talking about "bar people". I was talking about colleagues who decide to act on their sexual interest. Their "shared common interest" can be manufactured.

The statements that "he understood me so well"; "we spent hours talking on the phone"; I have never had such a connection with anybody - it was uncanny" was said by OW to her H when he asked her (in tears) why she had done such a thing. What was so wrong with him, her H, for her to have done that? Answer: OM (my H) was interested in her and they shared such a bond.

Meanwhile, my H was telling me that he became very bored by the endless whining about her life, and he invented meetings at work to get her off the phone. (I know some of this was to appease me, but I can see that some of it was true; he was flattering her for sex).

Same here. Totally isolated in a room full of people. Why was he so cranky, the second he walked in the door? Why did I feel so resentful? Why did it seem like he was doing nothing around the house but sitting on the couch, watching TV til bedtime? Why could the kids and I seem to do nothing right?

MB - I think we had the same alien.

The "loss" of my REAL husband during that time nearly drove me mad.

This startled me. I don't think I've ever come close to breeching Step #1. Working with men, enjoying social activities where men were part of the group...of course. But presumably you mean more than just sharing an office joke about the Board of Directors?

Not allowing opposite-sex relationships to get within light-years of friendly has been such a no-brainer for me, it's still hard for me to understand why other people are so casual about it. The rules of attraction don't change because you have a ring on your finger. All the things that got you hot and interested when you were in the dating zone, don't physically change. So, once you have a commitment to honour, you have to be scrupulous to make sure you don't let the magnets get anywhere near each other.

I didn't need Dr. H. to tell me that. I've never NOT understood it. It seems as obvious as having a shadow when the sun's out.

So, my question is...am I the weird one? (Along with SC.) Do other people understand, but risk? Or just not understand?

TA

Me too exactly and i have always done it pretty naturally as well.....

I think this is where i have a HUGE issue with my H, i guess because acting the way sugar cane has described was just natural to me so i ASSUMED it was natural to everyone.... and you know what assuming does.....

These are my thoughts as well, i am not even comfortable talking to other men for more than 2 minutes if that long....

I will not talk to a man about non-business issues unless there is a group present. Ever.

Me either but i mean like i am a smoker so i have to go outside to smoke and there are sometimes just me and a man outside smoking.

I feel really uncomfortable even just standing there with him much less to carry on a conversation about something in common.

>I feel really uncomfortable even just standing there with him much less to carry on a conversation about something in common.


I would too, SC. Totally.

'Weird' has such a negative connotation. I prefer 'unique'......

I think I'm more or less rowing the boat by myself on this issue. That's okay. Maybe I'll get some work done this afternoon.....

I work in the insurance industry, so I'm well aware of the concept of risk. We face risk every day. We risk car accidents every day. (Okay, smart-alecks, feel free to go ahead and chime in about car fires......) We don't wish to get in car accidents. In order to avoid accidents, we don't decide to AVOID driving completely. We buy insurance and we take precautions/measures to mitigate the risk of having an accident.

Others here are essentially saying that they're not "going to drive" -- or they'll only drive to the local grocery store, but those freeways? Forget it! (Sorry, if I'm Mr. Analogy guy today......) I drive. I interact with the opposite sex BUT TAKE PRECAUTIONS TO MITIGATE THE RISK. Now, there's no such thing as buying infidelity insurance (Hmm, I may be on to something here.....), so I have to take other precautions to ensure that I recognize those "dangererous" social situations.

I don't try to eat lunch and drive at the same time. I don't text while driving. I don't partake in one-on-one social activities with the opposite sex. I don't share personal information with the opposite sex. It's all about precautions that help to mitigate risk. Maybe we're splitting hairs here. It's not that I disagree with anyone per se, I'm just saying that maybe I place the big neon 'Caution' sign in different places than some other folks. Might not be better places. Who knows, maybe they are. Or maybe they're just different.....

All I know we face risk and danger every day. We're all human. We're not going to see that truck run that red light every time, and we're not going to see that innocent convo morph into something else. So we buy insurance. You avoid the opposite sex in almost all situations? Then I bet you pay alot in terms of your premiums. Me? Maybe I just have a high deductible.......

Thanks,
TB

Working in an almost all male environment for many years, I am exposed to one on one contact, group settings, phone calls, late meetings on a daily basis.

Yes, we talk work but many times we did talk commanilities; family, interest, movies, books and the list goes on.

What is the difference that held me back from #2? Accountability. When I felt a vibe or possible flirtation from the OP I mentally set my boundary. Even on those days when I was still with XWH in our M when we argued or I was annoyed with him I never thought to cross that line. Never.

But I do know that XWH did not cross that line until PP either.

What causes one and not the other? Was my love for him greater? IDK.

I'd never heard of ENs. (In fact, I'd never been told anything useful about the conduct of a marriage.) I saw it in terms of excitement. It seemed obvious to me that the biggest thrill you can get without chemicals is in the early stages of attraction. The sheer electric buzz you get when you're attracted to someone and can sense they're attracted to you, is like nothing else on earth. It's a force that takes over your mind and body. Once the relationship is established, there's never anything ever again as thrilling as that first stage.

It was clear to me that this buzz was so powerful, you had to keep your marriage well away from the force-field. You couldn't do any of the things that got the current running (and I could see perfectly well what they were.) This really was obvious to me.

But then, I'm not a risk-taker, at least not unless I've calculated the risks very carefully. Flirting with danger (literally) would not give me a thrill. Perhaps that's why I would be motivated to be very careful?

TA

�Apparently, there ARE people who have NEVER shared/discussed a common interest with a member of the opposite sex. I have been corrected.

If YOU are such a person, please share WHY you NEVER shared or discussed common interests with a member of the opposite sex.�

I dunno, actually. I just never did after getting married.

I didn�t see sharing common interests as a risk. I saw it as outside the M so I didn�t do it. I willingly gave up a lot of things when I married, and sharing common interests with a member of the opposite sex was one of them. With members of the same sex too, in some cases � it took too much time away from being with my W.

You can eliminate me being a hermetic curmudgeon. I am around beautiful woman with interests the same as mine all the time. For example, I have been mentoring various grad students for years � about 1/3 of them female. These women are very intelligent and very interesting. We definitely have common (and esoteric) interests. In some cases these are the only people I know who can talk about these thing with me. We put our heads together one-on-one over things like communications systems design, statistical mechanics, cellular automata and non-linear optimization of NP hard problems all the time. For hours on end. And then I go home. Where my family is (or was supposed to be anyway.)

Perhaps it was my parent�s example. They never explored any interests, common or otherwise, without each other.

Perhaps it was Engaged Encounter where that same list (in a different form) was taught. Although it certainly did not impress wife, as it turns out.

I never ever wanted to hurt my wife in any way. I used to love her way more than I loved any common interests with someone else, no matter who or what. I remember thinking she might feel sad if she even thought I actively shared an interest with someone else. Call it empathy even at the step one level.

At first, before the VLTA, I preferred to be with my wife over all others and over all other common interests. During the VLTA, when I was essentially alone again even though still living with her the entire 10 years of it, I still knew step one was the occasion of something that could lead to wrong so I still did not do it. (Now � I don�t seem to care much either way.)

So perhaps I just plain knew such exo-sharing is wrong when married, no matter what. Avoid the occasion of sin kind of thing - Catholic Guilt maybe. A lot of things other than step 1 are marginally and otherwise on the edge of wrong in life. I avoid all of them. Step 1 when married has always simply seemed to be one of these avoidable wrongs.

Maybe I just knew myself.

I have common interests with many of my co-workers, male and female but the only ones I ever hang out with are my female co-workers. I have many friends both male and female and I guess I never thought about doing anything outside of work with any of the men. As a nurse I work closely with both sexes and my unit has get togethers outside of work and we enjoy each others company. I have to admit that I have seen some of the nurses hook up with each other but I have never thought of doing that. I guess because I always didn't want someone do it to me so I wouldn't do them. Plus I loved my H. Unfortunately my H did it to me with his department secretary. Now he is back and he is going to be reading this stuff tonight. He is already reading SaA but this will probably blow his mind because from what I have gotten from him he followed all 15 steps to the tee.

Still hoping and praying.

Yeah, but you know what? SHE didn't have our 'real' H either. Our 'real' H came back later, after the A. I take a lot of solace in that.

And I wish I could remember who wrote on another thread about that - I apologize for not being able to credit the poster! Anyone remember? (I knew I should have copied and saved that poem! )Words to the effect of the OW wanting the H, the one who was a great father, great H. But she never had him because he became someone else when the A began...wish I could remember...it's hell getting older...