Thank you, Delean-de.

SC,

I did say that I could be mistaken. If I'm wrong I apologize and stand corrected. I wasn't my intent to put words in your mouth. You obviously feel I did so. Forgive me.

You are right, I could have checked. But I purposely haven't looked at that thread since my last post on it. I didn't want to go back through and read posts that would provoke me to anger and tempt me to respond again.

Wanted to thank you for this thread, Pepperband.

I don't feel like such a nut now.

Anxiously waiting the sequel...
Anatomy of Adultery - How It Ends.

Stated by many a wayward who has begun their affair online. There are at least 3 active BS's here right now with WS's having at bare minimum EA's with someone they met online.

That first step is just that - the first step. It is absolutely everyday normal behavior we ALL engage in.

In fact, going back to the original post with all 15 steps, step 1 is normal behavior. Step 2 is also something we probably all do but don't want to admit. I mean come on - how many times have you thought - gee I wish my husband would take out the trash like so and so's husband, or this casserole is way better than anything my wife ever made! In fact, we often go home and "suggest" to our spouses when we see/notice things in others that we may want them to do/be. (this doesn't always go over well, but it really is what most people do when you talk to them). Where it deviates from the path of normal, acceptable behavior is when you DON'T mention it to your spouse but instead start imagining what it would be like with a spouse who was like that or did those things.

Step 3 - sometimes people meet your ENs unintentionally. Your duty as a married person is to realize that it's unacceptable to seek these needs being met outside the M. It sounds simple but it is rather complicated considering most people have some ENs met by family and close (same sex) friends to a degree. But in reality, it isn't that difficult. It's not what they (the other people, not to be confused with an OP yet) do, it's what YOU do and how YOU respond.

I'd say step 4 is the full blown emotional affair stage. Though there may be exceptions - where you really are looking forward to a particular activity, not the company - but I believe the writers intent of that stage is that you are looking forward to being with the person regardless of the activity.

Step 1 - happens every day.
Step 2 - happens occasionally but most of the time we don't want to admit it
Step 3 - also happens occasionally whether we look for it or not and doesn't mean anything in itself but how you respond to it makes the difference.

And in all honesty, I see the above 3 steps happening independently rather than sequentially. It's only sequential in the mind of a wayward.

In my view, step one is the starting line towards adultry. In my case, exWW was a horse trainer and horse trainers / horse people don't just turn off their job when they get home. It is a lifestyle. Having exWW discuss common interests with males about horses is part of the job description. The problem (and adultry is RAMPANT with horse people) is that passion makes it sooooo easy to cross over to step 2.

ExWW's dad and grandfather were horsemen. I'm positive POSOM planted seeds in exWW's ear about how much better he is with horses than me. At that point, the car starting going downhill and gaining speed.

Interactions between men and women in step one happen to EVERYONE. It's the ones with poor boundaries that open the door to step 2.

Yes, but I work very hard to try to have my husband present, unless it's unavoidable.

Over Christmas: one funeral (with H), several parties (all with H apart from a women-only lunch and a 60th I attended with several women friends), one work lunch without H (Spouses not invited...could have declined...didn't drink and left early to minimise social stuff...).

Apart from work-related activities - and I'm very uncomfortable if it's just me and, say, one male photographer - my social life is almost entirely female-centric. There's one book group with several men (I NEVER discuss anything with them one-to-one offline; if I get anything addressed only to me, I reply to the whole group), and one writing collective with a male writer who never corresponds one-on-one with any of us (AFAIK).

I've discussed my marital problems with female friends only - the only man who's privy to the facts is my father.

During the bleakest days after d-day, I was asked to a movie by an old acquaintance whose wife had just left him...and I went. I'm not sure I regret that. It was a calculation. It bounced my then foggy H out of complacency. I made clear to the acquaintance that I simply wanted to see a movie, nothing more, but it was certainly a risky thing to do, as I knew quite well that the acquaintance was able to meet many of my ENs. It was about the only risky thing I've done in 25 years of marriage!

I have ENs that my husband is not well-equipped to meet - conversation, empathy, interest in the arts - and I am well aware of how easy it would be to let someone else meet those needs. So I don't let them, tempting as it is.

SC, catch me if you can!

TA

For those of us who are Christians, this is a critical to understand about this study. There are numerous "church folk" on this forum, many of whom were deeply committed to their Lord and their faith at the time they were in step #1, who would have sworn it was impossible for them to have an affair. Yet here they are, wayward spouses. GloveOil is one who comes to mind.


Yes, yes and yes.

This is going to sound strange, but I sometimes wonder if "church folk," the kind who on some level have an element of pride about their holiness, are MORE vulnerable because "they are above such things." I was a 26 year-old virgin when I married, for goodness sakes! DH was a minister when we married, I taught ladies Bible studies, I sang solos, I kept myself from temptation (really? seriously?). I mean, I would NEVER have sex with another man! Where are those verses that say "Pride goeth before the fall" and "Be careful when you think you stand, lest you fall."?

I truly believe that this list shows how we make those small choices every day, possibly not knowing what an impact they may have on our lives one day. In 2003, there was nothing wrong with me working on a grant with OM (fellow teacher) and the female principal. In 2004 there was nothing wrong with me asking OM to photograph our school performances. There was not even anything wrong with me asking how his trip to xxx for Christmas was or sitting at the same table in faculty meeting.

But all those times we went to arts seminars in the same car alone...STUPID. And this was waaay before any attraction/affair/anything. But STUPID! Going out w/him and a not-so-moral mutual friend to a "bar" a couple years before A.....STUPID. Then the stupdity progressed....enjoying his compliments too much, non-school related emails that were definitively too friendly - I don't mean tacking "good luck on your demo" at the end of an email about the winter music program decorations. I mean flirting about the hot outfit I wore to school - definitively too friendly. I won't go into the rest of the progression because it is so obvious, and I just ate.

I have definite opinions on the sequel suggested above too. They don't involve a password protected cage, but they do involve humility, a change in thought and behavior, and a good dose of common sense. It sounds like it could make a pretty beneficial thread too.

Go for it !

I agree there's nothing explicitly wrong with these things, lurioosi2. Normal, every day, work-related occurrences that many people experience. Would you agree that these were the first steps down the slippery slope to here?...


Knowing what you know now, would you do the innocent, "nothing wrong" things in the first list - sitting together at faculty meetings, etc. - the same way you did them? What ways have you changed those every day interactions? Or do you still do the same things the same way with the opposite sex in the first list and rely on your faith, instincts and red flag detector to avoid the second list?

Full disclusure: my wife is a teacher, so your story is of particular interest to me.

The seminars, etc. I would never do that again. Being alone for 3-4 hours in a car with a man? Dumb dumb dumb. I drove, for heaven's sake!! The guy had a car of his own; we didn't have to ride together. HMMMMMM....the cost of more gas versus the cost of an affair......let's buy more gas, shall we?

As far as the earlier interactions go, I am not sure about the faculty meeting thing....they are big tables. But looking back, it was more than that. We sat together and did mutual eye-rolls about stuff that didn't apply to us. We chucled at each others bored doodles....proably a little too familiar. I recently had a brif, on my way to the cafeteria, chat with the PE teacher about his wife's upcoming delivery and how having one-versus two kids makes life more exciting. It was just a few sentences, and Itruly don't think it was the "first step on a slippery slope." But I am not going to saunter into his office and have a lengthy conversation.

There are times when teachers, epecially "specialty" teachers, like the arts, where there are so few of us at a school, have to work together. I.E. the PE teacher always helps me put up the risers for a program. But we can be choosy. We can be careful. And we do not have to be alone together.

Now, maybe I could ride to a meeting with the gay classroom teacher and be fine. I am not going to jump him or anything. But I won't be riding with him. One thing H learned in seminary is the importance of avoiding all appearance of evil. e never gave a ride to a female alone. Even after we were engaged and even though we were committed to purity, we were VERY careful. Because even if we did't cross the line, the music minister having his fiance at his apt until all hours just wouldn't be prudent. In a town our size and with the tyoe of "mutual exposure" we did, I would bet half the town knows of my affair. So it is imperative that I go above and beyond to not only reassure my H but to avoid all appearance of evil. Does that make sense?

Ending my self imposed exile so that I can comment on this thread.

Step one isn�t so much a step people take, as it is the normal condition of folks, especially in the church. It is just the �sharing� of similar or common ideals so much as it is simply having the same passions in common. Talking about how much you have in common for hours on end is WAY past the safety zone. Where most affairs begin is just simply being in proximity to each other where common interests are held. This can be at work, church, AA or anywhere that people of both sexes congregate to discuss like interests.

The danger is enhanced when the spouse does not share the same interests and passions. This is the thing that so often happens at church. Two people, both fully committed to a cause or project because of sharing (not talking about it, simply holding in common) the same interests and passions. This puts them into a position where they WILL be talking about those things and where the spouses are often excluded since they either don�t share that common interest or in some cases don�t even attend the same events and venues.

Within the Church, worship bands and choirs are especially vulnerable to this. Most often it is something that puts men and women in the same project for long periods of time with a spouse who is not in attendance and usually doesn�t even understand a lot of the terminology. Music becomes the common shared thing that can�t really be shared with the spouse on the same level because the spouse doesn�t even grasp the terminology let alone express an interest in music. They don�t have to make dates to talk about it, they talk about it and admire each other, encourage each other, stroke each other�s egos all as part of the normal process of rehearsal and performance together.

Similar thing happen in youth groups, Sunday school, long term Bible studies, hospitality circles, missions�

The step from #1 to #2 happens as a natural course of events unless it is actively prevented. That is where the EP stuff has to come into play. Affairs happen unless we prevent them from happening.

Now I�m not trying to say that any two people put in the same room will or even can fall in love with each other. What I am saying is that people with common interests and passions, put into a place of discussing those common things routinely without knowing that it is by being made to feel happy and good about yourself that you fall in love with someone is asking for trouble unless something actively changes the dynamic to preclude step #2 from happening.

See Dr Harleys� explanation for why RC is so important...

And�
And�
Article here

The activity isn�t important; it�s not spending the time we are involved with our spouse while someone else of the opposite sex is spending that time with him or her that causes a problem.

Falling in love with someone when they meet some combination of our Emotional Needs is what happens by default. We don't even have to actively participate in falling in love. It happens under the right conditions unless we do do something to prevent it. We have to do things that prevent us from ever getting to step #2.

For some, this might mean never working on a project or attending meetings without our spouse if members of the opposite sex will be there or will be participants. For others it might mean changing our recreational, volunteer and work related activities all together. Unless we are spending our most enjoyable time with our spouse we are making ourselves vulnerable.

JMO.

Mark

TA,

I'm the same way. It's a no brainer. When I first got M, my wife was totally convinced m/f can be friends, I disagreed. I've always shut off friendly conv. w/women. Oh, I've been out right hit on by a couple of W friends and that was the end of our friendship w/other couple as I told W.

In the last year I've let my guard down (you can read my, PLEASE TALK ME OUT OF THIS) and got hit on that almost went sliding down the slope fast!

I am now building the wall and EP and actually feel more comfortable this way.

I always figured I was weird for not going up to every Mary, Jane, and Jenny at kids sporting events while other men did. I kept my distance. My wife does for the most part, but she is more social any way and is very gregarious and extroverted.

I don't even like casual conv. with another woman. With M problems I feel more vulnerable, although I've totally forgotten how to flirt I never looked forward to it and glad I don't have to be in those positions.

I thought it was just me who knew NOT to even mingle with opposite sex. Am I weird?

You should only share your passions with your spouse. Not just the physical ones, but emotional, mental, recreational.... Passion for writing, singing, art, etc. can quickly turn into other passion.

YES.

Sharing our passions is sharing our heart. It's opening up ourselves to someone else and becoming vulnerable. And when we do that, and the other person shows care, consideration, and compassion for that vulnerability, THAT creates a connection. And THAT creates a desire to reciprocate.

TB