My daughter called The Leopard a "chameleon." Of course, I didn't understand what she meant until I was performing a post-mortem on our marriage.

She started smoking again when she began her affair. OM smokes.

She started running when we got together. She was not a runner before, and even told my daughter early on that she "hated running."

And this I just realized: She bought a limited-edition Ovation guitar off eBay. Why? She doesn't play.

But the guy she was seeing and broke it off with before we started dating played guitar.

It seems that ALL of her interests are not her own.

She likes watching TV. That's all I've ever seen her do independently.

What is your opinion about her views here?

Keep in mind that she is speaking to a much wider audience than what we have on this board. People who have never been affected by adultery often thing male/female close friendships are not only possible, but ok. What she is saying without actually saying it is that a friendship of this nature is going to mean that the person you are dating is going to be sharing intimate details about YOUR life with another woman - and she's basically asking the person who wrote the letter if this is something she would want in a relationship. She's not using the words "adultery" or "affair", but the situation she describes would be felt as an EA if you were the spouse.

That too!

Thank you, wise Pepperband, for seeing the obvious while I dig in and over analyze!

She didn't seem to 'get' that what seems an innocent friendship now may develop into something else further down the line. She also seemed to be advising that you base your evaluation on what you're being told about the 'friendship'. By your boyfriend.

I've always like Dr. Laura, but this baffles me.

Though she says it's up to the writer of the letter to determine what they're comfortable with, it seems Dr. Laura is saying that married opposite sex friends doing things like playing golf together is fine with her, as long as "that's it".

I don't know anyone who would be okay with their spouse's weekly golf partner being of the opposite sex. That's 4-5 hours of Recreational Companionship with someone of the opposite sex who is not your spouse. Is that cool for a married person to do?

I'm betting Dr. Harley thinks that wouldn't be a good idea. I sure do.

This was true in my h's A as well. He started liking and doing things he had not done in our 25 years together.

The one thing that sticks out most to me was where the FOW lived. I mean it was the ghetto part of our town big time. It is a place where he said pre-A and has said post-A that he would NEVER live, yet it was not a problem at all to move in with her when i made him leave our home. And that is where they carried on their A as well as in a bar right near there that is very shall we just say not a good place to be......

Waywards..............

First of all i will admit that i know more about MB people than i know about most of my friends, however i have no idea who you are and you have no idea who i am and if i were to see you on the street not only would i really not know that you were skald, i would not carry on more than a brief conversation with you because you are a man (a least i am assuming that you are telling the truth ).

And my passion is not really MB, it is learning. I like to learn new things every day and try to apply them to my life somehow. I try to learn on here how to get my h to apply new things as well, even though i know i can not make him do anything, i think that maybe there may be something i read on here that i can use to get him to understand the MB principles and that they do make sense and if applied how much better of a marriage we could have.

So if we share that same passion then i guess you are correct in that i have stepped over that invisible line that i claim i do not step over. I guess i just do not see MB the same way i would other social networking sites but perhaps i am the one who is wrong i dunno........

I am betting that most people would not think there was anything wrong with it, that is what is sad to me and IMHO why it is so hard to get people to understand what a slippery slope they are on indeed.......

I've just registered on this site - I think BW would be the acronym to describe my situation... I found out on the 1st of January that my H was having an affair and had been flirting on the Internet with other two women over the past year, and I still feel like the last 20 years of my life have simply crumbled before my eyes. We've been together for 18 years, married for 16 with a 12 year-old child.

We've been doing a lot of soul-searching and yesterday had a counselling session - the counsellor was very complimentary of our approach to the whole situation. It was only one session and we're now in a waiting list, but we have been talking a lot about things that got 'accumulated' over the years. I wish I had something to contribute here before asking for something for myself, but I've got a long way to go before I can see the wood from the trees, so perhaps someone contributing to this thread might have a word or two that might help me ...

I'd always assumed (wrongly) that we had the same idea of what infidelity is. I now know that we don't. I have described a similar process to the 'anatomy of adultery' to my H, telling him that our major problem has been our inability to protect our relationship from dangers and threats (including everyday normal problems but also interference from family as well as stuff we all have from our upbringing and previous experiences). He doesn't seem to understand (or want to understand) that, often, situations can escalate from something apparently 'innocent' to something extremely harmful. He says everyone always has a choice to put a stop to things at any time - I know from experience what it means to be dragged into situations and feel powerless to say no or get away, and later regret appears when you realise the extent of your own pride and arrogance.

This is a very important point we'll need to tackle eventually - now, though, any conversation around the topic makes both of us extremely angry. He feels angry because he's had a year to build a perception of me as the 'disciplining', 'opressing' element of the relationship, while I've had many years living as 'sensibility' personified (which isn't really consistent with me at all but a 'role' I seem to be repeatedly fulfilling in all kinds of relationships). Just to clarify: he decided, reacting on a particular event, that we were finished but he failed to tell me about it (!), so we had a year from hell last year.

So when we do talk about the 'dangers' of relationships and how relationships need to be tended to and protected, he reacts quite badly most of the time. I feel extremely hurt that he doesn't seem to offer any empathy to my feelings of having been betrayed, or any respect to what I consider important etc. So yesterday I suggested we leave this point aside while exploring other issues. I still don't know where this is going to lead - I only know that my life as I knew it until the 31 December 2009, is finished.

I've been looking around kind of 'collecting evidence' to show him examples of how things can follow the exact process described here. Drama (TV or film) has a lot to offer but I need to show him real-life stories. He knows I was once in a relationship with a man who had assumedly divorced on my account - I didn't have an affair with him when he was married, but I was very young and naive and thought I could offer support and friendship to the guy; it escalated to a traumatic experience I still don't entirely understand, though I know that part of my being dragged into that was out of vanity, pride and stupidity. Although my H knew about this, he resents the implication that he is the one who's vain, proud and stupid.

The real trouble is that nobody really puts any thought into "what infidelity is" until it happens to them, aside from the obvious physical affairs. In reality, emotional affairs can be just as painful and damaging. Many As (EA or PA) begin with "innocent" activities, such as playing golf together or working together. But lots of people work together or participate in recreational sports together - it certainly doesn't seem out of the ordinary. Only when you've been hurt by adultery can you really see how this stuff can be a "slippery slope".

On the flip side, not everybody who works together sleeps together, nor everyone who plays sports together or belongs to the same hobby club. Though adultery affects 60% (or some disgusting number like that) of marriages, most of these are probably one time events or one adultery-partner affairs (or at least one AP at a time). So it's not likely that the majority of people going to work are actively engaging in an affair, nor the majority of people on a golf course, nor the majority of people at any mixed event. In fact, the majority of them are doing what they do and then going home to their spouses. The ones that aren't have boundary issues.

Nobody has an affair because they play golf. Not even Tiger Woods. He would have an affairs even if he wasn't a celebrety. Do you honestly think golf caused him to be that way? Similarly, nobody has affairs because they go to work or because they participate in activities with members of the opposite sex. They have affairs because they have no boundaries. Boundaries aren't about never playing golf or never working with opposite sex coworkers. Boundaries are about how you guard your personal space - both physical space and emotional space. They are about guarding your own actions and words. They are about recognizing actions and words in others and guarding your own responses to them.

Now all that said, had I recovered my M I would make sure my FWS also eliminated whatever activity he was involve in where the affair began - be it golf, work, go online or whatever. Because once someone stepped into the wayward side, I would know their boundaries are weak at best.

I couldn't agree more, Tabby1 - thank you for bringing 'boundaries' into this sphere. I hadn't thought about it in this way though the idea of 'boundaries' is something I've been dealing with professionally.

I don't know if a marriage or a relationship can be 'recovered', though - I'm more inclined to believe that, once trust is broken, the previous relationship is finished and something else will replace it (or has replaced it already). People think that there's a choice to be made of whether to rebuild the relationship or call it quits, but I'm not sure there's any rebuilding possible because things can never be the same again. At the moment I don't know what is possible that isn't hurtful - and when there are children involved, the connection between two people will remain, and the children will have an effect on what comes next.

I also still believe that people do quite a lot of things out of an inability to deal with things as they are, in part because it's easier to live in some la-la-land as we're taught, men and women alike. In la-la-land everything is always someone else's fault, or perhaps the circumstances lead you to do things or what have you other explanation that requires us to take no responsibility in the messes we create. In la-la-land there's happyness waiting just around the corner, so we're inclined to run over there to find it. This isn't real, but most people live their lives like this, and now that I'm forced to face things I'd rather have buried forever, I see this is a waste of time.

Here's my take on it. She's an entertainer. Judge Judy, while technically a judge, is an entertainer, not a justice of the peace. Dr. Phil, despite his title, is an entertainer first.

All of which means that whatever they say on the air is censored by their need for ratings first and foremost.

Dr. Laura can not say that probably 50% of her viewers/readers are involved in inappropriate relationship and should stop immediately - she needs to give a PC response in order to keep viewers and ratings.

Assuming her real opinion contradicts her words (her body language suggests this, imo)... her reponse here is carefuly worded so that she CAN'T BE WRONG in her advice (because afterall, she never really gave advice, right?)

Her other option of advice would be as potentially devastating to her career as if she said all Christans are crazy for believing in an invisible man and Scientology is obviously the correct "religion" - it doesn't matter if she believes this, she can never say it to her "fans" - and that's the key, they are FANS, not PATIENTS.

EDITED:
True. Thanks.

I started putting thought into infidelity when 2 of my married neighbors began an A. This was happening when my H began his EA - which led to his PA - unbeknownst to me.
I talked about the neighbors with H.
Looking back, H's reaction was "It's not our business."
I did say to H, not long afterwards that he better watch out, because OW should not be sharing her personal problems with him.
He said he'd watch out.
He began to hide things after that.

The neighbors? Both couples divorced. 3 kids in each family affected.
The A ended about a year later.
Stupid waywards.





Slippery slopes are, well, slippery. And exciting. And makes people feel "alive for the first time in a long time" or feel "validated" or feel "wanted" or feel "sexy".

The slippery slope is greased if someone stepping onto it has BOTH poor boundaries AND an empty love bank for their spouse. This is how most REVENGE affairs start.

The slippery slope has sometimes been modeled by the family of origin.
Often it's been romanticized by the media, not just films & TV, but novels and music, and other popular cultural outlets.




Beautifully written. Well done you.






Again, well done you!




Yes, indeed.

My H knows what his weaknesses are.
He likes women.
He's a great listener & shows a lot of empathy.
He's not particularly handsome, so he can seem "safe" for women who may not recognize right away, that he is charming.
One of his dangerous areas HE RECOGNIZES ~~~>his AA meetings.
We actually talk about this a lot.
I tell him when he's too close to the line, or, he'll ask me if I think he's doing something unsafe.

MY dangerous areas? ~~~> I'm too sexy for my shirt.
Seriously, I used to be unaware when a man found me interesting in "that way".
Now, if I think he does, I go talk to his wife. If there is no wife, I go talk to my husband.
If H is not there, I get away. Or, I say,"That's nice. Let's stop this conversation until my H is present."

My hobbies and interests mostly parallel my H's now.
And when they don't, for instance, sewing or book group, I'm with women.
Plus, truth be told, I'm no longer too sexy for my shirt.

Hi guys,

Pep: Thank you for posting this I talked with h about this last night for someone else. Anyway he admitted after many years that he did have an emotional attachment to the OP. He denies EA but admits the emotional attachment. For years he has said she was the one with the attachment. I asked what an emotional attachment looked like to him and he couldn't answer that. He agreed to think about it. I feel so less crazy now.

Anyway in discussing this in regards to this one

9. Special notes or gifts.

Yes he did do this, however he said that in management classes they are encouraged to do this to, to encourage people. He takes was it depends on the intent and that it must be done publically. That if you email an atta boy/girl it should be sent to everyone, if you get someone candy or something it should be given in front of everyone.

What is everyone's take on this?????

Number 9 is about "special" gifts. I could be mistaken but if his management classes encouraged him to send notes and gifts, they are most likely talking about thank you notes and, as you mentioned, office candy or possibly even rewards (known around here as bribes). None of these are things most people would consider "special". They're basic office politics when it comes down to it. And I doubt ANY management class would advise sneaking "special" treats to anyone - either the person is singled out as a reward for something, or it's just something they do for the whole office.

To me at least, "special gifts" means he went out at lunch hour to some specialty shop searching for some meaningful item specifically to please that person. The closest an office gift/note comes to that is when the person is sick in the hospital or is having a baby and even then it's typically flowers or baby stuff that the whole team contributed to.