WH's reply this morning-

"I have read both of your financial and personal letter to me. I wanted to make sure you know that I sincerely appreciate your writing to me, as I have hated making you feel like you are in limbo these past few months. I have been trying to learn to live independently and learn to fully appreciate what I can have, what I will have while appreciating what I have had with you in the past.

At this point in time, it is my intention to file paperwork for the dissolution of our marriage. I do not feel that I can be an independent person living with you, nor do I feel that continuing our marriage would be in either of our best interests. I can only say that I tried very hard to make things work between us, but towards the end of October I realized that if I was going to continue to grow as a person in the directions that I wanted to grow, it would have to be independently. I have faith in your own independent spirit to understand that this is the best path, even if may not be clear to you now.

It is my intention to be your friend once this is all over as your friendship is very important to me. I recognize that I have not been a good friend to you these past few months. I would eventually like to talk to you about these things but I understand it will take you time to understand and get to the point where you even want to talk with me directly. These past few months have been good for both of us to learn and grow, and I will earn your trust back as a friend, in time. I agree that we definitely have something worth preserving, and I am sorry that it is not our marriage. I will always love you Wolf, not Cougar, regardless of where else life takes me, I simply have to walk this path without you.

It is my intention to do my best to still continue to provide for your health benefits, if you wish Alimony payments then we can talk in depth about this. I will continue to work on getting the house sold and getting our mutual property sold etc. I will reply to your financial statements / ideas in full in another email."

I am heartbroken, but this is what I expected. Does this sound sane to you? or just a guy who wants to drink and fool around?

I'm sad to be reduced to just a by-line in this guy's life.

Wolf...you have to understand that we only hear your side of things. We weren't flies on the wall before you two separated, so it's really hard to tell how things were from his end.

However, drinking...porn addiction...those are things that whittle away at a marriage, regardless of what else is going on.

Anyway...I think this letter gives you some closure, something concrete to help you move forward, I hope. It gives you an immediate answer that he basically has no intention of attempting to reconcile on a marriage level. He's respecting your need for space, and I think that's a good thing.

I think for your own benefit, I would still set a time line in your own mind on how long you're willing to wait for him to change his mind. Maybe Independence Day would be a good choice, or sooner. (Just a suggestion) Then when that day comes, I hope you will break open a bottle of champagne and do something very special for yourself. The best thing you can do for yourself right now is to try to get on your feet and see this through. Carry on with your life as if a weight has been lifted and you're starting fresh, and go with the flow.

I would aim to get as healthy as possible for now. Choose your television programs and music wisely. Be aware of what you subject yourself to for a good while. Take care of your grandparents. Maybe ask your grandfather if you can use a patch of his property for a future garden. Anything to keep you productive and moving forward.

(((Wolf))) Hang in there.

Don't forget computer game addiction.

No, things weren't perfect... I see that now. But how was I to know if he wasn't happy, if he wouldn't tell me?
Hindsight being 20/20, there are lots of things I'd do differently... that's one of the reasons I'd still be willing to work at it, with my new perspective. He never gave me a chance to meet his emotional needs, by not being honest about them. I don't read minds. But I would have done nearly anything to make him happy.


I'm not waiting for him to change his mind or whatever. It's not like I'd be living my life any different, either way.
As far as "doing something special for myself"... um, what's to do, when you have NO money? He's got it all, and he's taking huge withdrawls out of the ATMS... over $500 in the last 3 weeks, with no record of where he spent it. On booze and his new alcoholic, drama addicted party girlfriends, no doubt.


Getting healthy has been my goal for the last few months. Still going to keep at it. There's no way to garden here... it's a condo with no yard.

I have no idea what comes next. Only that I really don't want to ever see him again. I have counseling tomorrow.

Ok guys, here's the scoop. I REALLY need an IM. Turns out I can't really be in NC with my stbXWH because of the finances... hearing about SOMETHING from him nearly every day. Communication with him is painful, and frankly he's being kind of a pr!ck.

Fred_in_VA suggested to ask here and see if anyone can help me.

I haven't filed yet, but am planning to see a financial advisor friend of mine and see if I can't swipe some equity out of the house or clean out my meager 401k to pay for my lawyer. This will leave him scrambling, but it will also MAKE him keep paying bills, fixing up the place, etc. It needs to be on the books right away.
Comments, suggestions? Volunteers?

I'm assuming he's calling you. How about letting him know that he will need to email you from now on? This way you have a record of whatever he says and can stick it in your folder? If he calls, let the answering machine or your voice mail get it?

Why don't you make some phone calls to area lawyers who specialize in divorce and see if they will work pro bono, paying them once the settlement is done. I don't know much about it, if that's even done? Do you know anyone who is divorced? Can you ask them who they used? Maybe that can be a short-term goal for you to work on for the next few days. Find out fees, etc. Maybe you won't have to tap into your 401K if it won't cost as much as you think it will.

How do you feel about selling the house as it is? Can't you just have an agent come out and assess it in the condition it's in and list it like that?

He's emailing me.


No lawyer in the area will do this pro-bono. I checked already. I just don't think it's done.
Most of the people I know who are divorced are from another state... we border up close here, and the bigger town is on the other side of the state border.
I've already done ALL the legwork possible for this... I've had 3 months, and I've hit dead ends all along. Legal Aid won't touch it unless it's a domestic abuse situation, they say I don't qualify.


The agent has come out and assessed it already and says it will take a long time to sell, as is. It might take a long time to sell "fixed up" too... people just aren't out there buying like crazy right now. The real estate market is really tough out here. I know people that have really nice, underpriced homes in showroom condition for over a year and still haven't sold them!

Not trying to shoot down your suggestions, because I appreciate them, but I've already looked into them. :p

Okay. Just thought I'd throw some ideas out there.

Does he work during the day? Now that the weather is giving us a reprieve (not sure if it's letting up where you're at) would you feel well enough to go over there when he's not there and do anything towards helping in any way, or are you needed full time by your grandparents?

Do you have any idea how much a divorce would cost? Is there anything you could sell to fund it, other than your 401K? It would be a shame to dip into that, and would there be a penalty? That would be unfortunate.

Are there any real estate agencies in your area that will list it for say 6 months and then buy it for the lowest assessment if they're unable to sell it? Just wondering.

Maybe you could try to sell it yourselves - for sale by owners, that sort of thing. My dh and I sold our first home that way.

Were you ever able to find out how the horses are doing and what is going on with them?

You could advertise it in the paper of the larger city near you too...

Absolutely. I hate going out there because it's depressing and I have anxiety symptoms, but yes, I plan to do my fair share in getting it ready. Weather is still problematic after the "snowpocalypse". I also need to try and work, too.


I've had people suggest that I take out a home equity loan, but I just can't see doing that. We have equipment, but we'd need it to take care of the place till it sells... also, that's a marital asset. I can't take equity or sell stuff without splitting it with him. I think it's just gotta be my 401k.


Oh, no way! There's no company that does things like that out here. It's a nice idea, but I've never even heard of a company doing that.


That would require either him or me to be available to show it. I suppose we could consider that, and I could put up some flyers for a "quick as-is sale" while he's getting it ready to list. That's an interesting idea... thanks!

[quote=Soolee}Were you ever able to find out how the horses are doing and what is going on with them?
[/quote]

He DID get one of the neighbors to take care of things, and although I haven't laid eyes on them yet, 2 of my friends in the area have checked and say they're doing fine.

Yesterday he threatened to sell one of MY horses... one of my old mares. I told him today that he's welcome to sell HIS horses, but to lay off the ones I plan to keep. I told him if he sold her without my permission, I'd report her stolen.

He has been bitching about paperwork and money... but this weekend he put a dinner for two at our favorite restaurant AND $50 in charges from an adult bookstore on his debit card! Can you believe this B.S?

Wolf...where do you plan to keep your horses once the divorce is through? Best to get some solid plans for their housing/upkeep, right? Something to think on...

Is there a reason why you haven't set up your own checking account? Just wondering about that.

Just a note that at least in my state, if you list with an agent and try to help them sell it - with flyers, advertising, etc., possibly bringing in a buyer without the agent's help - the agent will still get the commission. I know that isn't what you were planning, but I thought I'd just let you know in case you show the house to someone on your own and then they show up again later after it's been listed and actually buy it through the agent.

Also, if you have anything that is planted or bolted down with nails or screws, it's probably considered a permanent fixture and goes with the sale unless you are specific to any prospective buyers that it is NOT included in the sale.

Also...once you advertise, you'll be solicited (probably to an annoying level) by agents looking for a listing. Just so you know what to expect. Leave a message on the machine that you are not accepting calls from agents until (fill in the blank). We did this, and it helped to some degree.

The other thing we did was tell prospective buyers that we felt we had a better chance selling it on our own, without an agent, minus their commission tacked on. I checked out listings - bought papers and real estate booklets for the area and found 3 properties that had similar features as ours in the same neighborhood, added their asking prices together and divided by 3 to come up with our base price. Then I tacked on $5,000 to make way for negotiation. We finalized everything with a lawyer.

We may have just gotten lucky, Wolf, but we sold that baby in 2 weeks. I'm still amazed when I think about it. Hope you have equal luck.

Yes that was one of my very first concerns. I've been working on that. Ironing out a few different options on that front.

I have a "backup plan" where I could take them in the event of an emergency, and they could stay there for a couple months.


Haven't really seen the need yet. I don't want to make an account that he can't see, because that could cause him to retaliate by making an account I can't see. I like things how they are, so I can see what he's doing with the bills and how he's blowing money.

I will be making a solo account soon, though.



It hasn't been listed yet. The real estate agent has given him a list of cosmetic things that need to be done before we we should list it. This means I have a month or two to find a buyer on our own.


Yep, I know. Thanks for the reminder, though. We also have a tractor, bushhog and flatbed that can go with the property.



Now I DIDN'T know this. Thanks!


Wow, that's a hell of a story! I think I might put some ads up this week and get started trying to sell it "as-is".

Thanks!

Keep in mind that the new owners had to get approved financing. They didn't finance through us, and it was handled through a lawyer, I believe. (19 years ago, and my memory is fuzzy)

I'm not familiar at all with your story...just your signature line.

However, I hope you've documented all the expenditures that your WH has made the last few years as SOMETIMES in MANY states in divorce settlements/judgements, if it comes to that, the BS is able to recoup cash spent, or at least, avoid substantial or partial portions of otherwise "marital debt" for expenditures made by their WS in furtherance of an extra-marital relationship.

For example, I know one woman whose husband bought a boat that had a cabin with a bed in it. He did this obviously so he'd have a private place to bed the OW. The BW knew nothing of the affair when she acquiesced to the purchase. "They" owe over $40,000 on the boat as of today, however, used boats are not worth spit these days. In the divorce, the BW will be arguing that he can have the boat but ALL the remaining debt on the boat be allocated to him since the boat was REALLY purchased in furtherance of an extra-marital affair and hence, not really an expenditure pursuant to the marital "contract".

I've read case law on this and it's easy to find on the internet. Just google "Expenditure in furtherance of an extra-marital relationship" +divorce +[your state] to see if your state will allow such expenditures to be recouped (or debts unallocated to the BS).

Then...comb over the last few years of your bank statements and other documentation to come up with some numbers YOU ARE OWED.

Mr. Wondering

Just a word of caution though...make sure any electronics - anything of real value is stored elsewhere before you show the house. We put a "for sale" sign in our front window, and a number to call us for an appointment. It attracted all kinds of people who wanted to see the inside of the house, and you have to be careful because if it's known the house is vacant, it could attract break ins and burglary.

Many years earlier, our neighborhood had been a nice area. Then it got built up and jeopardized by reliefers and some gang situations, loose dogs, etc. Our house had a cherished double lot (rare) was the only ranch on a 2-story house street, yadda yadda. It stood out in a good way, and that probably was another reason why it sold quickly. I also was not asking for a ridiculous price. I studied the market and did the math.

So...when you write your advertisement, I would emphasize all the good points. Anything newly done for the house? Include that...Quiet country setting, unlimited potential, promising opportunity for growing family and ambitious do-it-yourselfers, etc. etc. Study other advertisements of a well known agency and use their terminology where it fits.

Yeah that's good to know. I'll make sure to remind him of that in my next "business" email. I need to get down there and do a "raid"... get another load of my personal stuff and anything I'm sentimental about.


Out here, turnkey places for people with horses that have amenities are rare in this price range. I'm HOPING it will go fast, but who knows?


I saved what you wrote above. It's pretty darn good!

Yeah, I'll be giving that all some scrutiny. I don't think he was actively spending any money on anyone till Ms. Skankypants... and he didn't even pay for he porn he was getting, just snagged it at LAN parties from guys who DID pay for it.
However, he's had a lot of cash withdrawls since we separated. I told him the other day he's going to need to account for that...

Hi everyone, here's an update for the curious...

WH filed for divorce late in Feb, and shot me a really low-ball offer to settle out of court. I refused it, cleaned out my 401k plan (about $3500 total) and got a lawyer. My lawyer said not to accept... it was a ridiculous offer. WH also told me to file my tax return separately- he didn't want anything to do with my tax return, so he could file on his own and keep "His refund." My lawyer laughed at this too, and suggested that since WH was wasting so much money, NOT doing any of the improvements on the house, and not contributing anything to my upkeep except for keeping health insurance on me, that we file for a temporary support hearing.

WH was FURIOUS when this came down the pipe, he vented long and loud on FaceBook. He was still "friends" with most of my family and friends, and so he spewed a lot of venom where everyone could see it. This was the end of Mr. Nice Guy. The hearing came quickly, and the judge told him he needed "a reality check"... ordered him to pay $500/month in temporary support, to file our taxes jointly and split the refund, AND to get to work in getting the house ready to be listed! He also said that he'd liked to have awarded me more, but until we figured out what to do about the house that $500 was where it had to be for now.

Afterward WH did a lot of venom spew- you guys warned me that this might come as part of a MLC! The last few months have alternated between him emailing me offering revised lowball offers, random pep-talks about my writing and/or my family situation, a really weird birthday greeting (as in "I don't know if you care about this, but happy birthday anyway.), LOADS of disrespectful judgements, etc. After declining another of his lowball offers to settle out of court, he decided to get back at me by taking photos of ALL the horses (including my old mares that I am keeping) and putting them up for sale on Facebook. This generated so much backlash for him from our mutual friends, that I ended up having volunteers come drive up, get my 3 horses and move them to a friend's place in less than 36 hours from his initial post! They are only charging me for hay, and really doing me a favor. Once again, he was FURIOUS. I really think that him putting the horses up for sale was him trying to force conversation with me, but it backfired.

Other than the necessary financial discussions (which I never intiate AND only keep my replies to impersonal one-liners) I've had no contact with him, other than adding a reminder on the end of one of my financial replies that his disrespectful judgments and lack of realistic solutions had been the biggest obstacle to working things out, without going back to court. I asked him to be civil from then on, or I'd be forced to take our conversations 100% through mediation... which isn't cheap. He reined in his spew, but he's full on in denial and "rewriting history" mode.

His family completely turned on me after I moved the horses. Apparently, they've now decided that they've ALWAYS hated me. You guys were right- you sure called that one! As soon as I started making things uncomfortable for him and he was starting to have some consequences to his actions, his family decided that I've always been an evil witch. <shrug> Whatever.

So, here we are, a month out from the final divorce hearing. I'm doing better. Things are still awfully tough, but I'm managing. I have lots of new friends, a great boyfriend that I'm seeing casually, an active social life, and I still get to see and ride my horses with my old friends (that help me with the heavy lifting and stuff so I'm not too worn out to ride) and all the new friends at the place where I'm keeping them.

I've decided I definitely DO NOT want my WH back. There's no way he's going to go through treatment for his alcohol problem, and that's one of the conditions I set for me even TALKING to him. Honestly I just don't see him getting his head on straight for a long time, possibly NEVER. Once the divorce is final and the house sells, maybe he'll be able to see that HE's his own worst enemy, but for now I'm still a convenient place to put any blame he's got for any of his unhappiness.

Without me being in constant contact with him, he's decided that this is a "breakup filled with animosity." This is kind of funny but sad because I have been so DARK/NC with him that any animosity is ALL him. When he said so to me, I suggested that going NC had protected me from most of the negativity, but if he was struggling with his feelings he might want to consider getting back into counseling. His emails to me have been filled with a variety of newsy chat, armchair quarterbacking of every major financial decision I've made for us over the last few years, whining about how broke he's going to be after the divorce, pep talks on my writing, veiled threats about how hard he can make things for me, and general entitled pomposity. He slips SOMETHING into every businesslike contact he makes with me, and I've been very good about not taking the bait about 98% of the time.

I am sad to lose his family. I love them very much, but I've spent the last 6 months working on my own issues, and I can see clearly now their dysfunction and how my own co-dependence issues bound me so tightly to them. I still love HIM, too... but I'm content to love them all from a safe distance, far away from their own self-inflicted bad choices and drama. Detachment is a wonderful thing.

So, anyway... that's the scoop. Just thought you'd be curious. I'd be grateful for any advice on what to expect next from him. I'm fully prepared to go permanent NC (except for financial stuff) and I've made that clear.

Hi Wolf. Thanks for the update. It sounds like you're doing pretty well, all things considered.

I'm sorry about his family, but you know how it goes. He was there first. You really can't expect much else, as blood certainly can be thicker than water - especially if he's been bending their ear and whining loud enough. Could be he's a pain to them too, and that's part of why they're saying they don't like you. Think of that? lol

When I got married, my mil said...'no returns.' Hearing the story about your stb ex's family makes me think about why she said that.

Not sure what to tell you on what to expect, but if it pains you to have unnecessary contact with him, I would stop. There's no law that says you need to talk to him about extra things.

He seems very mixed up, and he may never come out of it. I would not wait around and waste your time hoping he will 'come to' and realize the error of his ways. I know deep down you are probably hoping someday he will repent and come to you on his knees seeking forgiveness. It's important to accept that this may never ever happen, and you only get one life on this earth - you gotta think about yourself now and go forward knowing in your heart that you deserve someone who will stay true and on track morally. There ARE good guys out there.

About dating...remember to go very slow. I would not get serious with anyone for a few years.

That's what the counselor says.


Oh, I'm sure he's being a pain to them. He's good at his "poor me" act, and he's managed to get his family to do most of the work of getting the house cleaned and packed up and on the market.

I think it's more likely that they've decided they never liked me because I called [censored] on the alcoholism. Well, if STBXH is an alcoholic, so are THEY. The whole family is made up of functioning, binge drinking alcoholics. It's easier to hate me than admit they've all got some serious problems.

Not surprising they turned on me. My mother in law hated my guts for the first few years we were together, even went as far as to make up a bunch of stories about how I was screwing all my guy friends... NOT true. She got drunk at a wedding once when we were still dating and told me she was going to kick my @ss. She wanted to go outside. <sigh> He's with "his people" now.


Yeah, you guys really REALLY called that. I'd hoped they'd remain cordial. I really miss my nephew.


Yeah, he's been very erratic... and it's all pretty much all HIS drama in a vacuum, as I haven't updated my Facebook, and the few friends I talk to about this aren't sharing any info about me with him.


Closure of some kind would be nice, but I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I probably won't get any closure from him... I'll have to find it within myself.

I don't hate him. I'm able to talk about the fun times, tell the funny stories, etc. In a lot of ways, I feel like a widow. Lots of times it was good for me, and I was happy... but that seems like another lifetime ago. This new person isn't my husband... or even my friend. Have you ever watched "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"? When someone becomes a vampire, their soul leaves, and the demon possesses their body and has access to all their memories, etc. I just pretend he's like that... he LOOKS like someone I loved, and has access to all our joint history, but he's not the same person.


Yeah, I took a little flack for that on the other thread where I posted this update. It's going slow... as it should be. We have the foundations of a strong friendship started. He's really a decent person, his children adore him, and believe it or not, his wife did the same exact thing to him that my STBXh did to me... except she also got to stick him for tons and tons of child support. He "gets" where I'm coming from, and really... he works two jobs and lives over an hour away. There are lots of external checks keeping us from seeing each other too often and/or going to fast. I've never been treated so kindly before, and I have to say it's nice to have someone to spend time with. I've been getting lots of validation that I'm attractive, and that I didn't deserve getting thrown away like a piece of trash. It's a good feeling.

Also, I believe I will never re-marry. My health is too shaky to build anything on any foundation that I don't have complete control over.

Update: Vindicated! I've been approved for disability for my fibromyalgia.