All - so glad to have found this site, and all of Dr. Harley's insights. I have only been surfing here for the day, so I fully intend on digging deeper into all of the free info (and the books) in the near future. It also looks like the forum has a lot of traffic and tons of helpful members, so I'm eager to get your insight into my special (?) situation. Without further ado..

I met my soon-to-be wife A. at college in 1995. We both fell quickly in love, and within 6 months I had proposed (albeit, no ring - poor college student). She had already opened up to me items in her past - that she had cheated on every boyfriend she had been with up to that point, that she had an abortion, some SERIOUS family issues with respect to sex, and that she had been the OW in an affair long before we met. Being ever the optimist, I looked past these items and appreciated and loved her for who she was and who I knew.

Within the next few years, even though we were still appreciating, enjoying each other as much as ever, the sex life started to fade. I'd say we totally stopped having sex "for the fun of it" in 1998. She had started seeing a therapist at that time, but the visits were few and far between. I had graduated by then, and we set a wedding date for December, 2000.

She had some serious reservations about a month prior to the wedding, but I honestly don't remember them.

Life went on as usual after our wedding - no sex, but still a very good "friendship". I do admit, I missed the sex (what red-blooded male in his late twenties wouldn't?), but still appreciated what we had.

I was transferred to Chicago in 2003, and she was able to take a temporary leave from her job to come with me. Our son was born in October, 2004.

Life went on again, status quo, up to the summer of this year. I don't know what it was that led me not to trust her any more, but I followed my gut instinct. Like others, I gather from the posts here, I installed some keylogging software and subsequently Spectorsoft (a NetNanny software).

I found out that she had a one-night stand with someone she worked with in February of this year. It was at a going-away party for the OM, who was being transferred out of the country. Between February and the time I confronted her (September), they were talking constantly on Facebook.

Above and beyond all of this, through what info I was able to gain via the software, she thought of me as a good friend, that she loved me but wasn't "in love" with me, that she felt trapped, and that having sex with me was like having sex with her brother (all her words). Also, even though the last conversation she had with the OM was fairly graphic (ugh), most of it was her trying to get insight into marriage/divorce when kids are involved (he is divorced w/ teenagers). Also, over the last 2 years, roughly, she has been seeing a Hypno/Psychotherapist about her intimacy issues.

And that brings us up to today (phew - sorry, I ramble, as I don't have a lot of people to talk to about this)...



She has not had any contact with the OM since I confronted her. She wholeheartedly admits 100% fault (see my question below). I have told her that I will not "half-[censored]" this marriage without feeling like I haven't given 110%... Now for my questions/guidance requests:

1) It seems as if, long ago when this all started, I was likely not aware of or fulfilling the emotional needs. Thoughts?

2) Is it too confrontational to state that I expect to know if a) she is "in love" with someone else, b) has the feeling she wants to do this again, or c) feels that I'm not the one she wants to be with?

3) The reason I call this a "special" situation is that I was aware of, and signed up for, all of these issues (intimacy, known cheating, etc) prior to us getting married. I'd like to think that most of what this site has to offer is still relevant, no?

Again, thanks in advance. I do intend on reading as much as I can of the site while replies (hopefully) start coming in so I can talk more intelligently about the in's & out's of MarriageBuilder. I also appreciate the sounding board, as I have few friends with which I can discuss this (most of our friends are common).

JJ: welcome. You are going to get some great advice here. I'm going to approach your situation head on and not pull any punches. My STBxWW had affairs and lied...we are now divorcing. We have two DDs. Feel free to search my posts and read my story. I also posted under name "DNU1."

That said, I would like to suggest a somewhat harder line approach than others will post here. My suggestions are as follows:

1. First, and foremost, KEEP SNOOPING HER! And do not, repeat, DO NOT tell her you are snooping. Not just the computer, snoop her phone also: flexispy.com. Voice record her car, GPS her car, etc. Gather all the intel you can. AND DO NOT TELL HER!
1b. talk to an attorney asap to see what your options are...do not tell her this.
2. Demand immediate NC, followed by NC letter, mailed by me
3. Demand complete transperency -- give up all cell phone, e-mail, facebook...all passwords and accounts
4. She must pass polygraph...you write questions...ask everything you can think of
5. Post-nup agreement (again, see atty)
6. If all previous criteria met, and I was still confident the marriage could be saved, I would then move to another city-state-country, as far away from other person(s) as possible. If any of the above were not met or violated I would head straight to Plan D.

Some here will suggest Plan A and Plan B...I guess you could call this "Plan LG." Best of luck. You are in for a long, bumpy road. I hope your situation turns out better than mine did. God Bless and take care, LG.

JJ,

Do you want to stay in a marriage where "she loves you but is not in love with you?" If no, what are her plans to change this, what are your plans?

Does she want to be "in love" with you? Does she want to remain in this marriage? Do you really want to remain in this marriage?

A lot of things can change IF you and your W decide to give it a try. I am glad you are going to read the articles also read the q&A as well. I would recommend you start with Harley's policy of joint agreement, and the policy of radical honesty. Then move on to the his four rules for a good marriage.

After you have read and understand those, then the articles on Love Busters and emotional needs and how to meet them will make more sense and you will have via the policies and rules the tools to address them.

Harley is BIG on plans and I fully agree. IF you don't plan, make goals, milestones, check points. evaluations, and adjustments you don't have a plan and neither does she.

When you are done reading start asking lots of questions. The folks here will do their best to answer them for you.

God Bless,

JL

Does this OM still work for the same company? OM can be transfered back. I have seen this happen. If so WW must leave this job.

For NC between them forever and in case OM has bragged to his old co workers. Thus marking your WW as a possible easy target at work. Hey she cheated with OM, maybe I've a shot seed has been planted.

I have to finish getting ready for work, but I wanted to sy this. You are right that this A was 100% her responsibility. No matter what the state of your marriage. And I say this as a FWW. I will also say that at the time of my A, I had no love for my H - none. I could barely stand him. And it IS possible for that to change. Just thinking about it him make my heart swell now. But your wife must be willing to do some work, a lot of work. And drop that hypno-stuff! Analyzing and re-analyzing why she isn't intimate will not help, let me tell you.

I can go more into our story and the way my stupid min worked back then if it will help.

Wow... Quite the range of responses. Let's see if I can provide some more clarity & info.

OM does still work for the same company, but he was in the US on a foreign service assignment (IOW, his "home base" is not the US). I also work for the same company, so I know that it is very unlikely that he will be transferred back. Also, considering that the incident occurred the week before he left to go back home, he likely didn't have the opportunity to boast.

I want this to work, as does she. When we had our last discussion, she told me that she sees us bouncing our grandkids on our laps and still married when we're in our 70s. Our child means everything to us, so I don't want to end this without knowing that I've done everything in my power to try and save it. If in the end, after the plan has commenced, and it's still the same, I'll graciously exit.

The issue at hand is her feelings with respect to intimacy. Once in a relationship, she said the same things always happen - first deep love, then it tapering off to friendship and viewing the guy in the relationship (myself included) as a brother/friend, and pushing that person away in a definitely physical sense but also emotional. This withdrawal has always turned into cheating. Also, she gets so uncomfortable talking about this withdrawal and the lack of intimacy that we barely discuss it. I have tried in the past, but for fear of making her resent me, I have dropped the subject quickly.

I'm still researching here, so I guess here's a tentative plan:
1) discuss/impose the Radical Honesty policy with her. I like to think of myself as a reasonable adult, and I am pretty sure I can discuss this now without judgement. I just have to get her to open up - help me help her.

2) Definitely impose the Joint Agreement - she still has friendships with other guys that I still question. I think it's more than fair for me to request it.

3) If/when she signs up to 1 and 2, I want to start reviewing the Emotional needs with her. I think this may help figure out what causes her to push away in each of her relationships the further into them she goes.

What do you all think? Too much too soon?

Lurioosi - are you still with your H? Would definitely like your insight, and if you are still with your H, what worked for you...

How old is your child?

Yes, Lurioosi is still with her H. Her marriage is in recovery and apparently doing well. I am sure she will tell you all about it.

As for your W's issues with intimacy I wonder if she was abused as a child or teenager? My guess she fears being too close and she fears you knowing too much.

She needs to be talking to you about things. Things that no "brother" would/should know. She also needs to perhaps see a good counselor about some of these issues. She is making excuses about what she has done, now and in the past.

I'll tell you what I think about your plan. I think you two would be well advised to contact the Harley's for counseling. They are pro's. I do think radical honesty and the POJA are great for your marriage, but your W must be on board.

Please remember you cannot be her counselor nor can you educate her. She must have a desire to learn about and address the issues in the marriage and the issues within herself.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Radical Honesty and Joint Agreement are needed to rebuilt the Marriage but I think there are a few steps to survive an affair that you must read on and consider.

1. NC letter must be sent.
2. Continue your snooping.
3. Expose the affair, at least to close friends and family.
This will be helpfull in many ways, not only to kill and affair, but to help people around you to understand your "emotional status" and give you support and to make the WS accountable for what she had done,
It's very easy it seems to some WW spouses to agree so fast to NC and make a lot of promises to BS only to see them revive the A a few months later, she must feel the consequences of her actions.

4. Fill in together the EN questionaries.
5. Get professional help for her intimacy issues.

Are you sure this was only a ONS? for how long have they been in an EA before that?

She must now tell you all there is to know.

Hi

I am taking a weekend off the Internet starting this afternoon, but I wanted to tell you a little more about us.

H and I have been married 15 1/2 years. We knew each other for 7 before that, though we were mostly friend during that time and then it "grew." We were both virgins when we married and though we both grew up in great Christian homes, it didn't take long to realize that we had pretty contrasting upbringings. I would say our physical intimacy issues began between 6 months to a year into our M. But we didn't really know how to deal with it. I was the "high drive," and H was the "not that big a deal." But we were newlyweds, so we were stil figuring things out. H and I both grew up with very good domestic moms, but while he and his sis had lots of chores from a very young age, I didn't really have to do much. I mean, occacianlly Mom couldn't take it anymore, and she would make us do stuff, but she just would rather do it herself. I didn't really know HOW to clean, I cooked the same four or five meals, and besides, I would rather be off writing poetry or something anyway. When we take those personality tests - even today - we score almost exactly opposite of each other. He is quiet; I never shut up (unless I am depressed). I like having a bunch of friends; he is content with one - me.

Now, in a marriage where people talk to each other about the tough stuff, this is no big deal. But when you think you are "supposed" to be a certain way and that if you just pray enough, it will magically fix itself....there can be problems.

When we had been married ten years, I bought HNHN. I realized I wasn't meeting H's needs very well. So I pulled out all the stops. Made fabulous dinners, kept the house spotless, tried to bits my razor tongue....After three months nothing seemed to change. Again, instead of talking about it, I just got mad and gave up. I disconnected. No encouragement? I don't care. Sex 3 times a year? I don't care. Not what my parents had? I don't care. Except I did. All this time I spent nursing my hurt and throwing myself into work and wondering if I could leave him without ruining his ministry, I could have been talking to him. Or a counselor. But I didn't. And then he decided to leave the ministry and go to school again.

I lost some serious weight. I started trying out margeritas and wine (being a baptist minister's wife, I had never done that before). I started reading romance novels and Cosmo to feed that "need." And when the OM coworker noticed my new look and began flirting, I flirted back. It was a rush. It felt good. My conscience was screaming at me. So I ignored it until it shut up. I went to eat with OM and mutual friends. I went to eat with OM and a mutual friend. I went out to lunch with OM. I went to a movie with OM. We emailed. We discussed our attraction and how we shouldn't act on it (How idiotic can you be!!!). And then....I went to his apt one day to "watch a movie." As if. full blown PA.

That summer I bounced around from guilt to need to anger to guilt to entitlement, until I finally crashed. I lied a lot to all sorts of people. But I finally confessed on July 25th, 2006. I broke NC twice in the following couple of months, once my "apology" letter (really a suicide note, but that's another story) and once via internet. H packed his bags. Then I was truly borken, and real recovery began.

I would definitely do the following things:

SNOOP and confront
Insist on NC for life
Ask whatever questions you need answered
Never leave your house
Check out any counselor she has - some of them will tell her to just "listen to her feelings" and sing kum ba ya - that is NOT what she needs
If she will work MB with you, I believe that she will fall in love with you all over again. We all "learn to love." We can learn again, and it can be better.

My M isn't perfect. We still have issues to work through. But I KNOW I love him. I hope that helps.