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It's been a few years since I have posted. I'm hoping maybe a few of my MB friends of yesteryear (2002-03) may still be lurking.

First and foremost - all is well in my life. My toddler will be 3 later this month and things on the marriage forefront are AOK.

My best, nearest and dearest friend is having trouble. Her H had told her if she couldn't "get out of her funk" that she was in, then HE wanted a divorce.

The first thing I said was "go check out MB."

She posted and was very honest about her feelings (lack of) for her husband of 10+ years. She mentioned her recent run in with a former flame and their reconnection via Facebook. Everything she said was really honest. The advice she received from fellow FBers was really good. People applauded her honesty, etc.

Until....

Her H hijacked her login name and began posting on her thread as her H. Her very infrequent communication with flame (high school flame, btw) has now turned into the HUGE EMOTIONAL AFFAIR etc. and blown way out of proportion.

I am her best friend. She tells me everything. The communication was nothing. She does not want to be with this person or anything even close. She befriended him on Facebook. They were NOT communicating regularly at all.

Her H threatened to expose her "affair" (I'm using that term VERY loosely here as I was a BS from a FH who had an emotional affair) to their very young children. She broke down. Was very hurt by some of the reactions to her H postings here at MB. I have to admit, I was, too.

She is in therapy and has been going regularly. I believe they have had one session together.

He ordered the MB kit (which I applaud) but has been really super "pushy" with her about it which is a huge LB for her (the pushy-ness).

I feel really bad for her because she is trying to do the right thing. It seems that he is paying too much attention on what she is and is not doing.

What he has not said on MB is that he admits that the way he's treated her all these years has not been great. She found some books he ordered on "hitting on women." Yes, you read that right, too.

When she first told me about all of this prior to posting here, the first thing out of my mouth was "he's pre-occupied with something, could he be having an affair."

I feel awful for her and I really want to slap him silly. I'm trying to get her to come back to MB under another name, but she won't.

Thoughts? Advice? Thanks in advance.


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

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Can you tell us the name of the thread so I can go give him some what for?

Is he abusive or controlling or manipulative? It sounds like it. That would change my advice.

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Hey catperson. I didn't want to get on the thread - as you can imagine - since he knows me and knows I recommended his wife come here to begin with.

If I thought for sure that she was having an EA, I'd say it. I don't believe that was the case at all.

IMO, he's very passive aggressive and manipulative.

You had some very good and constructive advice for both of them I believe. The wind changed on that thread though and even someone commented about it.

I haven't spoke to her about what's happening for a few days. We spoke briefly this morning. I am an advocate for MB. I'm also an advocate for telling the complete truth, though.

I'm hoping I can get her to come back. But, the manner in which he handled the conversation about telling the children, etc. was really really bad - so bad she broke down, literally, on the floor sobbing uncontrollably.

She has lived with and "faked it to make it" for a very long time. He approached her about a divorce first - because she was in a funk about the marriage (which she has been on/off for years). He claims now he is a changed man and SHE is the one who is not trying.

Get the picture?

I don't want someone to call him out on that thread as it has died down a bit. Make sense?


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

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Got it.

Unfortunately, the advice I have for her is to leave his sorry a$$ and work on herself and move on and find someone who will treat her with dignity and respect. Just because you have kids with someone doesn't mean you have to accept their abuse.

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Go out and buy her Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, by Bancroft. It can help her develop a backbone. If she's too afraid of him to let him see her reading it, then urge her to go to a women's shelter.

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She is not afraid of him. She is working on herself and that is what she is telling him - that she needs to figure out some of her stuff.

He is a nice guy - passive aggressive, though.

She has a backbone - she does stand up for herself. That has never been an issue.

I do believe the way he handled "telling the kids" about her affair (which was NOT an affair) was definitely emotionally abusive - no doubt.

My advice for her has been to create some boundaries for herself. One of the hardest things for her to accept is his "gung-ho" attitude of wanting to fix everything now because he is "changed." She is annoyed more than anything else.

He got upset because they were supposed to spend some time together and one of the kids got sick so she had to tend to it. That is life, you know? Of course, it's upsetting because I am sure he is trying - but he has got to give her some space. Her love bank is in the red.


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

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Then I guess I would say that she needs clarity on what she will and won't accept, and articulate it to him. Boundaries, like you said.

And they need to work on their communication, so that she can say to him 'it hurts my feelings when you get upset over me having to care for a sick child' or something to that effect, without him turning it on her. And so they can then work on a solution for such occurrences. If he's trying, but it's not helping, it's probably because he's trying in the wrong way. They need communication for that.

The biggest thing I learned here is that I CAN tell my H what makes me unhappy, and I WON'T die or anything if he doesn't like what I tell him. A real eye-opener.

Oh, and have her practice pointing out to him when he IS passive aggressive. Most PAs don't even realize they're doing it. If he IS sincere, she can show him what he does to LB her in that regard, and he can try to learn to stop doing it.

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The problem is, HE gets to decide what is an affair to him and what isn't. Not her, not you, not us.

If he perceives he's been betrayed, regardless how innocent you or anyone else tells us the contact is, is of little value.

If he perceives he's been betrayed, that trumps all else.

Perhaps he shouldn't have told the kids. But abusive? I'm not sure.

Don't discount that he feels betrayed. Instead of arguing it wasn't an emotional affair, understand and embrace why he believes it is.

You will get a lot further that way.

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Originally Posted by llama
She is not afraid of him. She is working on herself and that is what she is telling him - that she needs to figure out some of her stuff.

He is a nice guy - passive aggressive, though.

She has a backbone - she does stand up for herself. That has never been an issue.

I do believe the way he handled "telling the kids" about her affair (which was NOT an affair) was definitely emotionally abusive - no doubt.
As I said above, the one who feels betrayed is the one who decides this, not the one accused of the betrayal, or those on the outside.

If we don't allow waywards to say "the marriage was already over, so it's not cheating" to the betrayed spouse, then why do we change the standard here.

Sorry, if this bothers the H, and he thinks it's a betrayal, then that's what it is, regards how anyone else wishes to paint it.

Originally Posted by llama
My advice for her has been to create some boundaries for herself. One of the hardest things for her to accept is his "gung-ho" attitude of wanting to fix everything now because he is "changed." She is annoyed more than anything else.
So which is it? Now she has feelings. Should we tell her she shouldn't be annoyed? Of course not. However, what you write comes across as her feelings are good and justified and his aren't.

I.E. his feelings about being betrayed and his enthusiasm about a better marriage. Well you characterize them as bad. Yet her feelings of being annoyed and that he shouldn't feel betrayed, well you characterize them as normal.

Sorry, the feelings of each of them are equally valid. You may not share them. But that really doesn't matter.
Originally Posted by llama
He got upset because they were supposed to spend some time together and one of the kids got sick so she had to tend to it. That is life, you know? Of course, it's upsetting because I am sure he is trying - but he has got to give her some space. Her love bank is in the red.

And so is his. He wasn't being PA when he said, if things don't improve then he was going to seek divorce. That sounds like someone who is also suffering a deficit in the love bank.

So what did she do to validate that the time missed due to the sick child was important and would be placed at the top of her list?

I'm not saying she did or didn't. I'm asking what she did to protect and demonstrate the value of that time? Did she say she was really looking forward to it and that she knew how important it was to him, so she would make it her number one priority after the crisis?

Or did she just say, the sick child comes first and hope he would understand?

If he's felt he's been in the back seat for years, then IF (notice I said IF) she didn't acknowledge the importance of that time with him, then she just LB'ed him.

No one is saying dealing with the crisis was not important. What I'm asking is did she validate the importance of the event that was interrupted by the crisis?

That's the key here. If he's been last after the kids and everything else, she may have missed a chance to drive home th message that she is putting him first.

If she's not willing to put him first, then he has a legtimate complaint.

Since this thread is largely about her, I'm focused on her behavior.

If he want's to disucss his behavior, or his friends want to discuss this, I'd be happy to bread down his behavior as well.

But I get the impression you have influence over her, so I'm focused on her actions and what I think are double standards with respect to her behavior vs his.

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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
As I said above, the one who feels betrayed is the one who decides this, not the one accused of the betrayal, or those on the outside.

If we don't allow waywards to say "the marriage was already over, so it's not cheating" to the betrayed spouse, then why do we change the standard here.
EE, I completely agree that the BS defines the betrayal. However, this situation went beyond this - the BH hacked into her thread and wrote lies about the incident - making it out to be far worse than it really was. This is NOT part of the MB program. By MB definitions, this would be a huge LB. So we have a WS whose bank is in the red, a BS whose bank is in the red and now the BS is making further withdrawals. Overall, they are in a bad place right now.

As to the original poster, can you advise her to set up counselling with the Harleys? Professional help is likely necessary for them since they are not just at a critical stage but they're both not likely to trust each other one iota.

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Originally Posted by llama
She posted and was very honest about her feelings (lack of) for her husband of 10+ years. She mentioned her recent run in with a former flame and their reconnection via Facebook. Everything she said was really honest. The advice she received from fellow FBers was really good. People applauded her honesty, etc.

Until....

Her H hijacked her login name and began posting on her thread as her H. Her very infrequent communication with flame (high school flame, btw) has now turned into the HUGE EMOTIONAL AFFAIR etc. and blown way out of proportion.

llama, with all due respect, I know this story and this is not an accurate depiction. The reason her "affair" was called an "affair" was not because of any description by her husband, but her own words:

Quote
but he's [her husband] doubtful of the counselor's ability to change my thoughts...yet says he wants us to not divorce. I've had physical attractions to other men and crushes that I've waited out until they're gone. I'm married for heaven's sake, right? But then a few months ago, I got into a funk because I ran into my ex-fiance in my home town and it was like getting hit by a huge flipping truck. I know he still loves me. And I can't believe I'll never have love like that in my life. I'll never have that emotional or sexual connection with someone.

Suddenly after she meets her x-fiance in her home town and got "hit by a truck" she wants a DIVORCE. C'mon, llama. Her own feelings for her x-lover are what has led to her emotional detachment in the marriage. I can understand your friend being in DENIAL, but I can't understand your denial.

here

And of course telling their kids is not "abusive." The kids need to know all this too since it affects their life.

Your friend was given great advice; did she take it? Is she planning on getting counseling with the Harleys? Setting up a MB weekend? The solution to an unhappy marriage is to work to turn it around, after all, not to get divorced. UNLESS there happens another person in the wings. Which there is...

llama, I understand you are in a touchy situation as her friend, but I would implore you to try and be the voice of reason for your friend. She is making a horrible mistake for herself and her children that she will regret for the rest of her life. If she leaves her marriage for this OM, she will ruin her life and that of her own kids. There is no future in her affair, it will fall apart soon enough.

But there is a future with her H if she will end her affair and start focusing on her marriage. <----that is what I hope you are telling her. But the first step is to END all contact with her OM.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by llama
I do believe the way he handled "telling the kids" about her affair (which was NOT an affair) was definitely emotionally abusive - no doubt.

No, it was not. Lies are harmful to children, not the truth. What is "abusive" is to destroy these children's family over romantic feelings for a former lover. Divorce is extremely harmful to children and the reasons should not be whitewashed to them. They have every right to know the truth. Just because your friend is in denial about the reasons behind the divorce, does not mean the children should be spun. Spinning the truth to children just teaches them dishonesty.

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults."
Telling Kids


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Melody Lane -

I'm not in denial about anything, thank you. I'm am VERY aware of her situation and that is why I posted on THIS particular thread because she WAS honest about her feelings and SHE came here looking for HELP.

HE hijacked HER thread which was not cool by any means. She felt hopeless and alone.

And, regardless of what HE stated in that original thread - it was NOT the entire truth. He painted a very different picture of himself and left out alot of MAJOR MAJOR things.

And, because you only know about HIS side of what went on, you clearly would not know how HE ERUPTS and handles things when HE is upset. It IS, indeed, EMOTIONALLY abusive!

I'm not going to get into a re-hash of all of this. I was a BS - I have been a MB since 2002. I have quite a history here - and because of that, I wanted some advice for ME as a friend to my best friend who is in a really sad state of affairs right now.

SHE is in counseling. SHE wants to work on herself. There is NO contact with the old flame. Zero. She told her H about the situation and was honest about it because she wanted to WORK on her marriage.

THEY have been emotionally DETACHED for YEARS. And, yes, she became even more detached when she ran into her old flame from high school. THAT is why SHE came here - to look for HELP.

Tabby -

Thank you for your post. I believe you hit the nail on the head. THEY are BOTH LB each other big time right now. Their communication sucks - big time.

HE continually brings up divorce. Like, if she's not working quick enough, then what's the use? That's unfair.

Enlightened Ex -

Because I came here and brought this up on this thread, my focus is on getting her back to MB. I know that her H has feelings and I apologize if it seemed as if I was discounting them. I am not. I was a BS once, too.

The latest is H went to the counselor and likes her. After their meeting, they (H and counselor) feel that H has been suffering from clinical depression for much of his adult life.

H is trying to communicate with W, but continues to be (and I'm paraphrasing here) "either work on this, or let's divorce."

He has also recently purchased a few books on becoming a Casanova with women. When W asked about them, he said "well, in case we get a divorce, I want to know how to be more attractive to women."

My advice to her just this morning was to not go there when he brings up divorce again. Tell him she is doing what she can and she doesn't want to talk about that until they try counseling, MB, etc.

She feels very hopeless (and angry) right now because she IS trying. She feels she is being pushed to go at a quicker pace because now HE is on board. For years, it was the other way around.

Her situation right now reminds me of the wife in Fire Proof. She has been doing alot (taking care of H's parents who are both very ill - one physically, one mentally, caring for the kids 90% of the time, keeping up with the house, involved in her church, etc.) She has been miserable in her marriage for a number of years, but continued on.

Running into the ex made her feel special again. She admitted that here at MB. She knows if the communication would have continued that it could have led into something more. She stopped contact completely.

Maybe a WS can offer some insight on perhaps the feelings you go through once contact has stopped. My guess is that she's in that phase right now. She is really lost. I believe whole-heartedly that their marriage could be saved, but they BOTH have to work at it and right now, they are both LBing all over the place.

They are spending 5 hours of time together alone tomorrow without the kids. We'll see what happens.

Thanks for your responses.

Llama


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
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Originally Posted by llama
Melody Lane -

I'm not in denial about anything, thank you. I'm am VERY aware of her situation and that is why I posted on THIS particular thread because she WAS honest about her feelings and SHE came here looking for HELP.

HE hijacked HER thread which was not cool by any means. She felt hopeless and alone.

And, regardless of what HE stated in that original thread - it was NOT the entire truth. He painted a very different picture of himself and left out alot of MAJOR MAJOR things.

Llama, I understand that your friend was "honest" in her feelings, but she is not being honest about the source of the problem, which was this OM. The core of the problem is her feelings for her OM and you should know that. When a spouse falls in love with someone outside of the marriage, AS SHE HAS ADMITTED IN HER OWN WORDS, that is obviously an impediment to marital recovery. Her H can't be blamed for that.

She came here for HELP and got lots of it on her thread. She just didn't like what she heard, because her goal was to blame her H for all the problems, while glossing over her contact with her x-lover. Sorry, but going along with that IS NOT HELPFUL. Telling a foggy confused person what they want to hear does nothing for them.

Ending all contact with him is obviously the best solution and I am glad to hear she has done this. However, if she still has a facebook account and can see him, then she will stay triggered. I hope you that you have told her H that he needs to be watching to make sure that contact does not resume in ANY WAY.

Some good books that can heal the marriage would be:

Surviving an Affair
His Needs Her Needs along with the corrsponding workbook, 5 Steps to Romantic Love
Fall in Love, Stay in Love

Do you have any of those books?

Quote
They are spending 5 hours of time together alone tomorrow without the kids. We'll see what happens.

Thats a good start! Does she know not to lovebust him? This will be effective as long it is a pleasant experience.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Melody -

Yes, I have the first two books you mentioned, however, I have moved twice since reading them and have no clue where they are. I will, however, make the suggestion about His Needs Her Needs as I think it would be helpful.

You said that she admitted being in love with this OM. That is not true. She said she felt no one could ever love her the way he did and that she believes he still loves her.

Contact stopped, including FB the evening she posted here.

Yes, she did receive some very good advice, but then when it became a He said/She said, minus the She part, that thread got a little ugly - IMO.

People were accusing her of bullying her H - which she does not. People also accused her of making H retract a comment - which she did not. What started as a warm welcome and a safe place to discuss her wanting help for her marriage, became something else.

Her husband admitted to, and apologized for the evening in which I mentioned above where he was out-of-control and emotionally very abusive.

In her original statement, I don't recall her blaming her H for anything. She spoke about herself. She asked for advice. Got some really sound advice and felt safe to come back.

IMO - it wasn't right for her H to hijack her thread. He should have started a new one. People even suggested it. He began speaking for her - which wasn't cool AT ALL.

I also think there is some confusion to this recent contact with an ex-fiance to an affair she had 14 years ago.

IMO she is doing alot to work on herself. I think that is all she can handle right now. She is an emotional wreck. She thinks she is a bad person. She has been the glue that has held their marriage together for this long.

I don't dislike her H. I was at their wedding. I have known her since we were 5 yrs old. I have known almost every person she has dated. We have lived under the same roof together. I can finish her sentence and she can finish mine. When I was having difficulty in my marriages - she is the one who gave me the soundest advice - because she does believe in marriage and knows that every thing in marriage isn't about romantic love and all the fluff we read in books and see on TV.

I think they can save their marriage. I'm not sure he wants to though if it doesn't happen quickly enough. He has continued daily to bring up divorce and splitting assets, etc. Not so much the kind of environment that they can necessarily be positive about their communication and work on their marriage IMO.

I will be talking to her tonight prior to their 5 hour of no kids time tomorrow.

Until then.


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

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Originally Posted by llama
You said that she admitted being in love with this OM. That is not true. She said she felt no one could ever love her the way he did and that she believes he still loves her.

Well, that is just fog-spin, llama. Her comment was:
Quote
"And I can't believe I'll never have love like that in my life. I'll never have that emotional or sexual connection with someone."

Its quite obvious from her comments that she has very strong romantic feelings for her OM. Its a little hard to deny the true meaning of those comments.

Anyway, I hope as her friend that you don't enable her and get bogged down who said what and whether it was good, bad or indifferent. It is clear that she heard alot of things she didn't want to hear and the reasons are obvious to any objective observer.

Another important thing that you can share with her is that using this program properly will return the ROMANTIC LOVE to her marriage. That is the goal of Marriage Builders. So the feelings she has for her OM can be had in her marriage following this program. It really DOES WORK.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I think the source of her problem is a very neglected marriage, to a bully who hits women, that left her very vulnerable to an OM.

It's great that she didn't act on it. Great that she told her H.

I experienced something like this. I was in a horrible marriage to a screaming bully. I begged for counseling, help, relief and medication. It leaves you VERY vulnerable. I never in a million years thought I'd ever stray, so I was quite shocked when I discovered that a random OM could flattery me, catch my eye. That had never happened before. Scared the hell out of me.

And I KNOW my exH would have used any OM contact to beat me to death with, no matter how innocent or brief. If she really wants out, she should get out.

If he really wants her back, he's going to have to develop some patience and empathy. He cannot bully her into recovery. Can someone tell him that?

How about an MC? Sounds like they have two IC's? Sounds like if anyone needs a good MC, it'd be them.

Good luck!


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Drucilla -
I appreciate your comment. It's nice to have the view of a former WS. Please stick around as I update. I welcome your comments. BTW - he has never hit my friend. He's a very quiet man, selfish with what he wants, and very passive aggressive.

It IS great that she didn't act on it! It IS great that she was honest with her husband! Thank you.

Melody -
I'm just going to say this now - you come across very argumentative in your comments here. It's semantics. The person I feel who is getting bogged down with who said what is certainly NOT me. I'm simply looking for helpful advice for ME in relation to getting my friend the help she so desperately needs.

I'm a little taken back by many of your comments pertaining to this whole situation. I think you have given some sound advice and I thank you for that.

To me, and this is just my opinion, that is not the Marriage Builder way. The WS does not need to be made to feel like a bad person by a bunch of people she doesn't know on a site about building marriages where she initiated getting help in the first place.


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

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So, why is he reading a book on Not Hitting Women, instead of a book on how to win your W back?

Just to clarify, I am not a FWS. I divorced very cleanly. I was the BS in my current marriage.

It was just the noticing of some guy that made me feel ashamed, worried. And I realized how neglected I really must have been to be so vulnerable. He was merely polite to me.

I'm a rock, always have been. I never want to give any hint of inappropriateness when married. Never did, still don't.

I somehow always had a good sense of EP (Extraordinary Precautions). If I hadn't, I wouldn't have been so freaked out.

The feelings scared me. I never spoke to potential OM. He never knew. I realized then I was vulnerable. That scared me, too.

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Originally Posted by llama
Melody -
I'm just going to say this now - you come across very argumentative in your comments here. It's semantics. The person I feel who is getting bogged down with who said what is certainly NOT me. I'm simply looking for helpful advice for ME in relation to getting my friend the help she so desperately needs.

llama, I suspect you may feel that way because others, with a more objective view, don't see the situation in the same light as you, which is making you so defensive. It is not a matter of "semantics" that your friend has inappropriate, adulterous feelings for another man, it is a true fact. That cannot be spun away or denied. We can see her comments and she clearly is in love with the OM and it is clearly affecting her marriage.

I have tried to give you some advice in helping your friend, but I think the first step is seeing the situation in a REALISTIC light yourself and helping her see it. The way you characterize the situation in your initial posts makes me doubt your ability to help her. Her affair cannot be glossed over as if it is an insignificant influence. She clearly does not see it in a realistic light and I think you can be helpful in that way. That IS the Marriage Builders way.

It is not the "Marriage Builders way" to spin an affair into something it is not and help someone feel good about being BAD. That is the "Wayward Way," certainly not the Marriage Builders way. When a foggy person shows up seeking help, radical honesty is warranted, rather than enabling of the FOG; that only fuels the fantasy.

Your friend only feels bad because other posters have pointed out the reality of her affair rather than validate her in blaming her husband. And yes, she should feel bad about that. It is extremely destructive to her marriage and her children. Sure, her H has done some bad things, but nothing as destructive as her affair. She needs to work on cleaning up her side of the street and let him clean up his. No amount of angry outbursts justify an affair and vice versa. Surely you can see this, being an "oldtimer" and all?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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