Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,316
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,316
Originally Posted by llama
To me, and this is just my opinion, that is not the Marriage Builder way. The WS does not need to be made to feel like a bad person by a bunch of people she doesn't know on a site about building marriages where she initiated getting help in the first place.

llama,

I am a FWS who came here and initiated getting help...You know what helped me the most? Being told that what I done was BAD...In fact, it was Pepperband that said something to the effect of "I think what you did was bad, very bad...more than I am saying"...It wouldn't have helped me for people to pat me on the back and tell me how sorry they were that I felt so rotten and depressed...I felt depressed because I had behaved badly and feelings follow actions...

llama, you keep saying that you want to help your friend...I hope you will heed what I am going to tell you - I had ONE friend who stood up to me and told me to grow the hell up and knock it off...She was the ONLY one of my friends that LOVED and CARED for me enough to tell me that I was being an idiot and that I needed to do the RIGHT thing - which was to work my butt off to restore my marriage and family...I did have one friend that refused to meet OM, but still wasn't strong enough to take a real stand for what was right...And my very BEST friend? The one who I'd known since I was 10? She stood by and enabled me - comforted me, telling me she understood why I was so miserable...she encouraged me to do stuff like "follow my heart"...When I woke up from the fog and did do the right thing, guess what? I never forgot who REALLY cared for me and who was willing to hold my hand while I charged through the gates of hell...I'm no longer friends with my old best friend, but I will NEVER forget my dear, dear friend that stood her ground and held fast to the courage of her convictions and didn't give a rat's patootie how mad I got at her when I was wayward...She loved me enough to encourage me to do the RIGHT thing - I will love her always for that - She was a friend to our marriage and family...She is priceless...Be a real friend llama - don't whitewash your friend's bad behavior - always care enough to give her the brass tacks and encourage her to restore her marriage...

Because llama, I read her post, and since I was wayward, I can spot it from thousands of miles away [btw, my affair was with my ex high school/college boyfriend - so I get this situation more than you can imagine]...Your friend IS wayward - regardless if she remains in contact right now or not - the mindset is there...It's like a flashing neon sign to me...I absolutely believe that waywardness leads to death - both physical and spiritual - I know you don't want that for the friend you love so dearly...Please listen to what Mel is posting to you...She is right...Help your friend really work the MB program with her husband - hold her accountable - encourage her to do the lessons with him - she will never be able to thank you enough for caring for her in that way...No one ever regrets doing the right thing...

I pray you will listen...

Best,

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
L
llama Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
Mrs. Wondering -

I AM that friend who stands up to her. I AM that friend who is PRO-marriage. I AM that friend who tries to show her the ways her H IS trying.

I AM NOT an enabler. Period.

I know Pepperband very well. She helped me when I was here the first time in 2002.

I know my friend was definitely in the fog when she first wrote her one and only post here. I know that. I don't feel the need to continue to rehash this as I'm trying to move forward and looking for ways in which I can give her support.

Right now she is totally pissed at me. What can I say? We've been down that road several times in our relationship. I can handle it. I am not certain she can now, however.

I know her mindset is there. I believe I stated that several posts ago. She is in the state of where you feel depressed after a breakup. She's angry at her husband for trying now and NOT trying all these 15 years (which he does admit).

They are spending a good portion of the day together minus the kids. I hope things go well for them. I hope he doesn't continue to push her too hard and then begin talking about divorce. She has shut down - almost completely - IMO. I'm worried about her.


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,316
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,316
Okay llama...good deal..then I'm not sure what you are looking to do at this point...She's mad at you? Let her stew...when she gets through withdrawal and through the fog that will change - make no mistake, the fog is NOT gone yet...that takes a long time...

Be a friend to their marriage anytime you are given the opportunity...Don't support her by validating negative comments about her husband...ex: "He's too pushy"...Remember it's their marriage - don't place yourself in the middle...

A good way for you to support your friend would be for you to find and reread your MB books - making sure that you are fully refreshed where the MB program is concerned...

Right now I'd sit back and let your friend chill...Have your husband call hers and encourage him to go out and do fun things with his wife [spending AT LEAST 15 hours/week together - Dr. Harley says it should be more for a couple in crisis] - no relationship talk is best while she is in withdrawal - Mr. W and I did things like movies [comedies], comedy clubs - things together that allowed for a fun, upbeat feel [so yeah, we did a lot of dance clubs and bars too at the time - lol - we did what we could to recreate our "courtship" and we were young back then, so yanno...laugh]

llama, one more thing - a really hard thing, should it come to this - the BEST thing you can do for your friend if she continues down this path is to tell her that if she leaves her husband...decides to destroy the lives of her children...for the OM? That you will have NOTHING to do with her...EVER...I understand that will be hard, but it is the KINDEST thing you could do for her...If she leaves her marriage and family for an adultery partner it won't just destroy their family, it will destroy her...Love her enough to be tough on her...

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
L
llama Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
Good advice! :-)
Thanks Mrs. W!


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
L
llama Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
Melody -

I just mentioned to her yesterday (in which we had a very heated conversation) that NOTHING justifies an affair.


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,888
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,888
[begin tj]

Llama, MrsWondering, MelodyLane and others, I have been following this thread with only minor interest, but I feel compelled to jump in here for a moment.

I am gratified that there are people here who take such things as other peoples' affairs seriously. I am frequently disheartened about the lack of principles and intestinal fortitude exhibited by my circle of otherwise "principled" people.

The lack of fallout from my exposure to my WW's affair was a deafening silence. Even OMW reacted by having her attorney contact me to ask me not to contact her any more. Say what?

Given the fog I heard spew from her mouth in the days of her exit from my house, I can only imagine the spin she's been telling people. Not only that, but she and POSOM have found it easy to just move their affair 30 minutes away, and no one sees any need to say or do anything about it.

Even people who I respect and admire do little more than pay lip service. Oh, they are properly solicitous and say all the right things to me (how sorry they are, how I'll be all right, etc.) but do nothing to confront WW if they see her.

So I applaud you folks for --living-- the principles of MB. The net result of my Plan A was to just piss off The Leopard and further justify her ill behavior. This doesn't mean I don't believe in Plan A, it just means that my circle of friends and acquaintances seem to have looser standards and morals than do the rest of the world.

That MB principles work is not in question. My Plan B has made it possible for me to realize that not only can I live without The Leopard in my life, but that my life will be better for it. I kick myself for my shortcomings --most notably for not seeing the redflag redflag that should have steered me clear of getting involved with her in the first place-- but even MB has enabled me to getter perspective on my own drives and behaviors. And that lesson is the most valuable one -- even though the pain of learning it is unparalleled in my life.

Again, I applaud you one and all for "sticking to your guns." You people are awesome!

[/end tj]


Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
St. Francis of Assissi
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Fred, I think most of us have friends, family, etc, who did not respond the way we expected to exposure. Often, an exposure target will say stupid things like "she has to follow her heart" crazy or "she has to do what makes her happy" [thank goodness she is not a serial killer! grin] but that is ok. Exposure makes it much harder for the WS to spin the story to others when the truth is out there.

It is an expectation that many people will not take umbrage.

It is an expectation that the WS will always be furious.

But the end result is still good because affairs THRIVE on secrecy so exposure ruins the fantasy aspect. It is like turning on the lights in the crack house and bringing in a crowd of onlookers. It is no fun to get high while every one is watching! It also greatly impedes the ability of the WS to spin the story to others.

So while exposure often doesn't immediately end the affair, it does hasten it's death and takes all the fun out of the fantasy. It sends the affair into a free fall.

Dr Harley likens exposure to chemotherapy.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,121
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,121
Fred,

"Even people who I respect and admire do little more than pay lip service. Oh, they are properly solicitous and say all the right things to me (how sorry they are, how I'll be all right, etc.) but do nothing to confront WW if they see her. "

I'm afraid that's a common reaction from many that care,,,but have never been directly affected by an affair and experienced the pain & devestation of infidelity.

I regretfully, while I always knew affairs were wrong and never supported anyone having an affair, I didn't vocally speak out against them & show my disgust either. Until **I** experienced the pain!

Prior to my H's affair I knew my best friend was the OW. I didn't recognize the pain she was causing in someone's marriage. My thoughts?? "Oh how unfair for HER. SHE deserves so much more!" shocked doh2 Not--YOU are destroying someone else's life,,YOU are interfereing in a marriage, YOU are WRONG!!

Now I openly speak out against infidelity to anyone that'll listen,,,,,and even those that don't wanna hear it! grin

Fred, you've worked a great Plan A and are doing wonderful on Plan B. I know it doesn't feel that way at this time but eventually, you'll look back with amazement at your strength and wonder "How'd I ever do all that!!"


Dday- Feb 1998
Recovered!!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
L
llama Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
Fred - thanks for stopping by. Hang in there.

Nerly - thanks for your honesty.

My friend is definitely pissed at me right now. I'm not sure when we will speak again. She thinks I'm "trying to orchestrate, judge/criticize and fix my relationship with my husband" (her words).

Oy vey. Something has happened over the last two days with her - I'm sure of it. She's back deep in the fog.

She says in an email she'll talk to me sometime next week.

We'll see. As I told her in a brief (very brief) email. "I have no words. None."

Guess I am now officially a bad guy. Ugh. Sigh.


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,121
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,121
"Guess I am now officially a bad guy. Ugh. Sigh."

I know Llama. It's hard to have a falling-out or losing a friend. I know it's been suggested you cut this friend out completely while she's involved in an A and letting her know why. While that is an excellent suggestion, and I fully support that idea, I didn't do that. Of course remember, I hadn't found MB when I discovered the affair.

Guess what I did when I discovered the A. Right!! I called my best friend, the OW in someone else's marriage. Still, not thinking of HER as an OW in someone else's marraige, I poured my heart out to her. I cried, I plotted & planned. For hours & hours, days & weeks. And she was there for me. Suggesting, advising, plotting & planning. And some how,,some way, through my pain, she realized her actions were wrong. She ended her affair and I recovered my marriage.

I know it's hard Llama, but keep your friend on the RIGHT track. She may not realize it now but eventually, she'll understand you did it out of love for her, as her real friend.


Dday- Feb 1998
Recovered!!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
L
llama Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
And, so it continues.....

So, my BFF and I haven't spoke for a few days. To recap, she was super flustered and felt she was being pushed/rushed from her H. She was upset with me because she thought I was trying to fix their marriage.

What I didn't know was:

-He apparently has been threatening moving out and/or divorce again since Thursday.

-On Friday he threatened to have his sister move him out of the house.

She says her only request has been to stop threatening her with ultimatums regarding here pace on working on their marriage. This is a huge love buster for her - the all or nothing type stuff with H.

So, now to Saturday - this is the day they had a babysitter and spent over 5 hours together. She said it went really well. Even went to a party later that night together. No heavy relationship talk - just the two of them.

Sunday, they go to church together with their kids. Right after the service ended, before they had even left their pew, H informs her that he is leaving. She was in shock being they had just spent time together the day prior AND they were in CHURCH. She asked H if they could enlist the support/help from their minister to talk with them and the kids about it and so he did and it went well. The youngest one (5) does not really understand. The oldest one (8) is VERY upset about it.

Her H told her later yesterday that he prayed and prayed to God about it and that is what he felt he should do - leave. (I need to mention here that H has nearly claimed to be an atheist and resented alot of his Christian upbringing - so that, to me, seems a little weird and off - just my opinion, though.)

The 8 year old started a word document on the computer entitled to mommy & daddy. It basically said he didn't want his parents to split up and how upsetting this was to him. He wants things to get better so they can all go to Disneyworld like they did last year.

Upon showing the note the son wrote to her H, her H broke down, began sobbing and told W that reading that made him feel like sh&t. He began looking for apartments. She doesn't know when he plans on moving. She even offered the suggestion of maybe one of them moving into the guest room for the time being while they were in counseling, working on MB, etc. but he wants an apartment.

His next appt with the counselor is Wed, hers is Thurs.

I'm personally hoping he doesn't do anything prior to that.

I have felt since the very beginning that there was something a little "off" with his behavior, too. I feel like he's been distracted with something - hence the books on picking up women, tattoo, working out more, etc.

My friend is convinced that nothing could be going on with him, but my gut tells me differently. He's been very "waffle-y" throughout this thing. More so than my BF and she is the WS.

Thoughts?


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
llama, she still sounds very foggy and he sounds very hurt. There isn't much than can be done here to help them at this point. They will have to slowly rebuild their marriage. A separation would be a huge mistake, of course, and would increase their risk of getting divorced.

Their best chance is to start using the Basic concepts of Marriage Builders and things will come around.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
L
llama Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
He's found a furnished apartment and is moving out tomorrow. He told her he plans on being there until May or June until the kids are out of school.

I realize every couple is unique and different. When I was the BS, my WH was the one always threatening divorce, not me. I was always wanting to know more about the OW, what I did wrong, how can I right this, etc.

My friend's H hasn't even brought up the old flame of my friend's (who she has not had any contact with since her H asked her not to).

He's not posting here that I am aware of, so I'm wondering where all this is coming from.

I'm also not sure if I have mentioned it prior but H had asked W for a divorce way back in December (right before Xmas). She didn't tell H about the Facebook contact and seeing him once in the fall until after the first of the year when they were having a relationship discussion due to him "reprogramming" himself (some method or book, I'm not sure what it is).

You know they just began counseling less than a month ago. He has only gone once (maybe twice). She has gone at least three times, maybe four.

It takes a long time to rebuild a marriage. My first H didn't even try with me. I couldn't even get him to meet me for breakfast or lunch.

My friend's H seems to have this need to "get on" with his life - find out what he's been missing.

Is that typical behavior for a BS when the WS is working on it?

I know he didn't get that advice to move out here at MB. That's why my friend suggested someone staying in a separate bedroom instead of leaving the homestead. This is not what she wants.

She's a terrible liar, so I feel like she is telling me the entire truth.

It's all very puzzling to me. (Her, too).


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
llama, why is he leaving? Has he decided to give up on the marriage? What is his reasoning?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
L
llama Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
He says he "prayed" about it and this is what he is "supposed" to do. (He's pretty agnostic, maybe even atheist, so him saying that was really weird for her.) He also has mentioned over the last few times of threatening to divorce that she wasn't moving along quick enough - in a kind of "what's the point" type of way.

The weirdest thing is that they spent alot of time together alone on SAturday and my friend said she was actually surprised at how well it went (she wasn't sure about spending 5 continuous hours with him because she feared that he'd be pushy about working on the M, etc.). They even went out later that night together.

Then "bam" at church - "I'm leaving."

It's all very weird to me. My friend is completely in a state of shock.

He says he will continue therapy, but hasn't mentioned anything specific in relation to her or the kids, schedules, who's going to do what, etc.

Again, it could all change tomorrow - as he could completely turn another 180. Even his sister (who was visiting when this all went down) can't figure it out and thinks it's weird.


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
L
llama Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
BTW - thanks Melody for keeping up with this. Much appreciated.
;-)


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by llama
(she wasn't sure about spending 5 continuous hours with him because she feared that he'd be pushy about working on the M, etc.).

So is this why he has given up? She won't commit to working on the marriage? It doesn't seem like someone who wants a divorce would be "pushy" about working on the marriage. I am confused.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
Mel - my spidey sense is tingling on this - ILYBNILWY ??? Independent behavior? For what?

My guess is there is someone else and this supposed BH is actually wayward in his secret intentions....

Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,121
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,121
Yep KaylaAndy,,, I'm feeling the breeze from those red flags too!


Dday- Feb 1998
Recovered!!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
L
llama Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 342
KaylaAndy - what is ILYBNILWY? I have been thinking this could be a possibility since mid-December.

Melody - your guess is as good as mine. It doesn't make sense. I invite you to reread that original thread from the beginning. It was and always has been H talking about divorce. There was a huge change in the wind on that original thread where all of a sudden W was the one asking for the divorce, etc. It simply was not true. There were quite a few assumptions about her that were not correct. Her aversion for S with H was one of them. She was experiencing physical pain years ago when having it. She had a medical issue that I'm not going to get into, but nonetheless, she was having pain. Although their intimacy level was next to nothing, they did have S fairly regularly. H has said (anger outburst) H NEEDED S and if she wasn't going to have it with him then they should just get a divorce. He didn't think he could wait any longer (it had not even been a month, maybe a few weeks).

There was an incident where he came home from work and called her to say NOT to come home yet because he was "busy" SF himself since "SHE" (he was angry) wasn't giving him any.

H behavior has been independent during their entire marriage. I'm not blaming him, I'm just stating facts.

I'm going to give an example of something that happened years ago when one of their children was still a newborn - we're talking weeks old. She had forgotten something at the grocery store and went with the baby to get it herself. She should have called someone, but decided to take the baby out and do it herself. So she did. The car broke down. She called him at work. He was mad that she left the house and told her to wait for AAA. So she did, crying, with a hungry newborn.

They had a miscarriage early on in their marriage. It was devestating to my friend. She was uncontrollably sobbing on and off for quite some time. He never once comforted her - no hug, no holding, no nothing.

These are things that have bothered me (as her best friend) for years. And, these were not isolated incidents. This IS their marriage.

I feel he is being sneaky. Today he is moving out. I'm wondering if he's going to take those books on "how to pick up women" that he bought some time ago.

So back to my friend. What are some things I can do for her? So far I have encouraged her to stay with therapy - which she has no intentions of quitting. Continue being a good mommma to her kids and continue reading MB and some other relationship books. And, under any circumstances contact old boyfriend or any other guy for that matter. She said that she does not want to and will not contact him.


Llama (BS)
D-Day was 4/14/02
Separation came immediately
D - 8/15/02
Remarried - 3/3/06

Married to a wonderful man 3/3/06
Gave birth to my beautiful son 1/29/07

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 137 guests, and 48 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
purple17, cbm800, Dodo M, Kingpin, MikaylaVaux
71,729 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,547
Posts2,322,775
Members71,730
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5