You have named perhaps my greatest fear. I want change to happen, but how will I know if it is genuine change or a smokescreen? He seems to be making baby steps of progress - working on anger, beginning to show an interest in other people besides himself - but how do I know what to trust? So much has been broken!!!

Hi Derrah, you are lucky that you have some other male role models. We moved clear across the country and it is just D and myself. She wants to finish school here so right now this is where we stay.

When my XH had this A he walked out of a 21 year M less than 2 months after all of this began. It was that addicting to a woman that cheated on 2 XHs and 1 BF of 4 years. He lives with her now. He basically only took his clothes.

This was a man that was ethical and honest and a role model for his girls.

It is sad but we have to remind ourselves that they are the ones that are losing out on a great life.

take care

(shaking my head...) I just don't get it!!! I don't get how these waywards walk out. Sure, every marriage has problems. There are stressors involved with raising kids. But there is so much more!!!

When I met with my attorney last summer (after WH moved out and told me he wanted a divorce), she told me, "No woman can compete with the intoxicating allure of an affair. I advise you to have no contact with him. Agree only to text/email regarding the children. Otherwise, don't see him or talk to him on the phone." Some solid advice. It helped me to regain some sanity and stability when I was an emotional mess! But I digress...

"Intoxicating allure" - must be some intoxication!!! I can't even imagine! I saw the photos my DD15 saw of this other woman. She looked ridden hard and put away wet! This woman - 20 years his junior - looked so old and hard! I can't even imagine the attraction to her - except that maybe she indulged his desire to party and get drunk - which I was unwilling to do.

in..TOXIC..ating!!

Ummmm...if a spouse is agreeing with MB and wants to recover the marriage, then they are referred to as a FWS (FORMER Wayward Spouse).

An actively wayward spouse will not agree with MB.

A person's looks never matter in an A...my H was not physcically attracted to the OW in the least ~ it was all about how she worshipped the ground he walked on. That's it, nothing more.

ttfwife...why would you say this to someone who is on a marriage building site, trying to repair her marriage?

How familiar are you with MB and the concepts? Do you know and understand about the LB$, meeting ENs and avoiding LBers? Because if you did, I don't think you would be saying this.

People can and do change...when saving a M is important enough to a person, changes are made and they can and do "last".

Who are you? What is your story?

Marriedforever-are you sure you're not just mad that I disagreed with you?

I am familiar with the MB concept,my husband and I have read HNHN and SAA. I am also familiar with men like her husband seems to be. I can only go on what Derrah writes about him. I, personally would never stay married to a man that told our daughter he did not love her.

That is one of the many flaws Derrah has highlighted about her WH. I also believe that a person can change if they want to, but he would first have to admit that there is something wrong with him. From what I have read, he most certainly has not admitted that. You can not save a marriage if both people aren't willing to put in the work.

As for my story, all you have to do is read my threads.

Best of luck to you, Derrah and your family.

I am not mad...how old are you? I feel like I am talking to a teenager. What kind of a question is this???

I am merely saying that this is a marriage building site...that is what we do here, we try to help people see that marriages CAN be saved. When someone is in an A, they are FOGGY FOGGY FOGGY and say the most ridiculously hurtful things...I am sure you remember doing this to your H since you are a FWW yourself.

Derrah's H said some really stupid things...in his affair. That is what actively wayward people do...it's par for the course.

It sounds like Derrah wants to try and save this ~ that is her choice and that is what MB is here for ~ to help her recover her M from her husband's adultery.

If you follow the MB concepts sometimes there is only the BS still working for the M. The wayward are in a fog and see absolutely no way. It is up to the BS to leave the door open till WS comes out of the fog.

Marriedforever-this will be my last response to you. You think that your opinions are the only ones with any validity.

There's really no need for you to bash me about how young I sound. If you read any of my posts,my thread or my signature line, you would know my age.

As far as being foggy, foggy, foggy and saying hurtful things, I never once said anything mean or hurtful to any one of my children. For me, that is NO excuse to ever say such a horrible thing to your child.

Derrah-i hope you don't think that I have been insensitive about your marriage. I was simply telling you how my marraige with my ex went and that it sounded a lot like yours. I am sorry to you, Derrah if I came across as non caring. I am all for saving marriages if they can be. Maybe yours can be, maybe not, I was just giving you some info I wish I had had when I was married to WxH.

No but you DID something incredibly mean and hurtful to them...you disrespected their father (and yourself); you ignored them during your A (ALL waywards do this, it's a necessary fact in order to carry on an A), you did not give a rat's *ss about their well-being and keeping their family together; you ignored the promises you made on your wedding day.

So should you also not be "worthy" of your H wanting to recover his M??? You were mean and hurtful as well, in actions rather than in words.

Sheesh

Affairs are certainly complicated and involve intense emotions!!! Many are hurt.

No doubt that my WH has some significant character flaws. These are longstanding traits that do not easily change. However, I do believe that people can change if they have the desire and the willingness to work hard. Here is where the jury is still out! My WH has been in therapy since September. I do see some changes - he is actively providing financially for my children and me. He is talking about long range plans with regard to finances. He now sees DS12 weekly and has offered to help out so that the entire burden of parenting does not continue to fall on my shoulders. He is asking about DD15 and is giving her space to process her feelings. I saw him for about an hour tonight. It was the first time in almost 8 months that he asked how I was doing. He is much calmer. He has been sober since September. These are all good signs to me. However, like I said, this sort of change takes time - time for WH to change, and time for me to trust that the change will stick. This is a long road with NO guarantees.

Also, in the meantime, I have had a wonderful opportunity to focus on my own individual growth. I was not perfect in my marriage. A 12-step program that I go to has taught me about the destructiveness of codependency. I am thankful for the ways that I have grown in the last few months. If WH and I ever get back together, it will be as two healthier people. I hope that day is possible.

I say all of this and certainly do not minimize the pain my daughter has (and continues to) experience. There are no excuses for what she experienced. By all counts it is wrong for a parent to turn on their child. But what would be the greater crime? For my WH not to try and just walk away? Add physical abandonment to verbal abuse? My hope is that he can one day truly repent to her and that she will be able to hear him - his brokenness - and his love for her. He has been a great daddy in the past. I hope he can reclaim some of that with her. But their relationship is ultimately up to the two of them.

Are the odds against the marriage? You bet. However, both my profession and my religious faith hold that change is possible. Not easily. Not quickly. But possible.

I do appreciate all of your thoughts and take no offense. Blessings to you all. We are all here because we have been touched by the nastiness of infidelity!!!

Blessings you are handling it well. I am in Alanon and it has helped me to feel empathy for my XH even on those days where I do not feel so forgiving.

Derrah, bump...hope you are doing ok.

Thanks hope! Doing pretty well.

I feel like my life is pretty stable right these days ... compared to the initial months right after D-day, my emotional swings are not real severe anymore, I usually feel pretty hopeful about being OK no matter what happens, and I am better able to stay in the present moment.

That being said, I am also keenly aware that something inside of me has radically shifted. I am not as trusting as I once was. I still trust my closest circle of friends and family, and generally believe that most people lead their lives with good intent, but I am not as naive to believe that people are incapable of horrible things. Right after I learned of the A, I really tried to find compassion for the OW (crazy, I know!) and tried to tell myself that I am sure she never intended to be this kind of person. I hold a very different perspective now. I no longer feel the need to cut her slack.

Also, today I was cleaning out some dresser drawers and cleared out some things that belonged to my WH. I found a package of condoms in one of the drawers (we never used these in our marriage). I took a moment and saw that the expiration date was 8/09. I got online to find out how long the shelf life is for condoms (I can hardly even believe what I was Googling today!!! May my children never see my search history!) Looks like they were probably bought in 2006. Now according to my WH, the A started in 2008 and he has been faithful the rest of our marriage. Why condoms then? He had a vasectomy in 2003, and I can't imagine he'd be that careful about STDs, so part of my mind wants to say it means nothing. Another part of me says don't be so foolish. It is a strange thing when trust is gone!

My WH has been so nice to me this last month. He has helped me to buy a car, is helping to step in with parenting responsibilities with our DS12, reportedly has been sober since September, reportedly broke up with the OW in September and seems to be much less reactive and rageful. All good, right? Well, again - part of me hopes that this is genuine change. Another part of me fears that this is all part of some grand manipulative scheme. I know that only time will truly tell. That's why I think I am better off trying to live in the present moment rather than speculate.

The sad part (one of many sad parts) is that prior to June, 2009 I actually trusted this guy. I knew he had problems, but I never believed he would deliberately decide to hurt the kids and me.

Anyway, that's enough for tonight. My brain is hurting from trying to figure out this madness !!!

Derrah, I don't think you ever told us about your session with SH.

Session with SH was really good. Based on the information I gave him, he said that a positive outcome is possible. This is not a marriage with circumstances that are too far gone or irreparable. He believes reconciliation is possible - both for DD15 and me. He said that recovery of the marriage could be worked on concurrently with recovery from alcohol. He is concerned that WH's individual therapy might not keep the initial goal of marriage recovery in the forefront.

He believes that WH can't imagine a solution to the predicament he has found himself in. I think he is spot on here. I know WH has told me that he believes he has done irreparable damage to his relationship with DD15 and that he has lost her for good. So I try to share with him some of the progress I see DD15 making.

SH would like to talk to WH. My challenge now is to find a place/time when I can bring this up to WH. I must admit, I am nervous about it. I can't imagine WH being open to the idea.

Derrah, I have not truly read through your entire thread, but the alcoholism and some of the stuff you are going through I experienced and understand.

My question - Did SH tell you how to approach your WH about talking with him? What he told me was to work on getting yes answers, namely wouldn't it be the best possible outcome if you were to fall in love with your children's mother? My WH said yes to that. I then opened up to him about some of the stuff I was learning about how I had made mistakes in the marriage.

I wasn't strong enough or focused enough to get a solid answer, but I was wondering how SH told you and how we can help you there.