"Yes Patriot, this is ALL straight from the book...5 years ago Mr. W could have written your post about me - I look back and cringe - I can't believe what I put him through - I'll never stop being remorseful for my actions and grateful for his...My first posts on this board were asking if I could ever regain my feelings for him - and I'm embarrassed to say that I also said : "I still have feelings of love for OM" -

I told Mr. W essentially the same things your WW is telling you now - "I feel trapped" - "Okay, fine, you win, I'll stay, but I will NEVER, EVER love you - I hope you're happy!" [ultra cringe]...I'm also ashamed to admit that I cried on Mr. W's shoulder about the *cough*bullcrap*cough* "break-up" [massive uber cringe to infinity power]...

And here we are now, 5 years later - and all is better than well - it's amazing - neither of us can believe how close we are - we read Dr. Harley's books - went to the MB weekend - worked the lessons - practice MB daily - and IT WORKS! The goal of MB is to fall [and stay] romantically in love with your spouse - and that's exactly where we are...it's absolutely possible..."

Mrs. W,

You posted this on another thread. Knowing that those words came from feelings and emotions at the time, how do you describe your feelings looking back at OM 5 years later?

Hi rc2009...

I'll be glad to answer anything I can for you...I just want to be clear about your question...

Are you asking about how I feel regarding the feelings that I had then? Are you asking me if the feelings were "real"? Are you asking how I feel about OM now? Are you asking how I feel about my actions back then?

Clarify for me if you will...

Mrs. W

I apologize Mrs. W. I'll try again.

5 years ago you told Mr. W that you loved OM, not him. Now you love Mr. W. Do you still see that the feelings for OM 5 years ago were real or do you look at your actions and words now differently? I hesitate to say more until you answer.

Hats off to Mr. W. I don't envy anyone having to go through this, whether A is current or finding out anytime after the A. Mine is 10 years later.

Yesterday, W and I attended a new 5 week series directed at young couples (not W and I) about the importance of teaching their children about sex. The speaker was a published author that specializes in sexual problems dealing with teens and adolescents. Sadly, she says she could double or triple her practice dealing strictly with adolescents sexually offending other adolescents.

Part of her lecture relates to a frequent subject on this board. There are several experiences for a woman that release oxycitin in the brain. Oxycitin (this may be misspelled) causes a powerful bond to form. It is released during childbirth and during affection and SF with a M. Oxycitin is powerful enough to cause a female to want to replicate (probably not childbirth lol) those feelings. It was not possible with the format to ask yesterday, but I plan on emailing her to ask how this would effect a female during an A.

She explained how this bond is stronger the fewer sexual partners the female has had. The more sex partners before marriage, the more likely divorce. It would also be interesting to ask how multiple A's effect the bond. I realize there is plenty of colloquial evidence on this board, her's would be from a more scientific approach.

Ahhh, okay I gotcha...This part of your post made chuckle, btw~~~> "I hesitate to say more until you answer." My answer wouldn't have changed no matter what you said...

Now on to the serious stuff...

My feelings back then? Those were real, in that I did feel them - I felt them because I allowed someone besides Mr. W to meet my most intimate emotional needs - when someone meets those needs, feelings of romantic love manifest - feelings follow actions, and all of my actions and OM's were focused on each other...Causing "in love" feelings to develop is actually a pretty logical process...that doesn't sound very "romantic", but it is very true...

HOW.EV.ER...

All that doesn't change that those feelings existed in a fantasy land - What I mean is, affairs are an escape from reality - there are no sick children - no daily morning breath - no shared mortgage - no bills - no doctors appointments - no dirty bathrooms - no colds or stomach flus, etc...Both parties are putting on a SHOW...Always smelling fresh - always perfectly groomed...I'm sure you get the picture...

But YES, I most certainly look at my words and actions differently today - those words and actions that I chose to focus on OM make me sick to my stomach to think about...What is different today is that I take extraordinary precautions to make sure that no one else meets my emotional needs [Mr. W does the same] - additionally we are both VERY CONSCIOUS of meeting the emotional needs of the other - we realize that it is each individual's responsibility to ensure that the other person remains in love with them...We have eliminated love busters - there is no longer any independent behavior - we lead an interdependent life...we practice the POJA - the PORH - the whole nine - To sum it up, we are both committed to working the MB program in it's entirety - for life...

I hope that answers your question thoroughly, if not, please feel free to ask more - I'll be glad to help in any way that I can...I have to admit that I don't know very much about oxytocin and it's effects though...What I do know is that feelings follow actions - as Mel often says around here, "bring the body and the mind will follow"...

I look forward to hearing your thoughts...

Mrs. W

As you surmised, the spelling was a few letters off. It's really "oxytocin", but I kinda like oxycitin, too.

tl

Thanks,the speaker promised to email us her notes and I was to lazy to google before I posted. Besides, the way drug companies make up names, who would know the difference. Listening to the effects certainly shed light on the withdrawal WS go through.

I wouldn't have known it myself except that, as a labor and delivery nurse, I got to write it repeatedly for almost 40 years! You're surely right, though, about the weird names made up by drug companies!

tl

Just to ad to some of the information about oxytocin. I heard a radio call in show and they were saying that singing in a group setting will release oxytocin in a female, similar to the amount of oxytocin released when a female has an orgasm. (who knew)

So one of the factors they were discussing was the impact of oxytocin on bonding. The release of oxytocin according to this researcher was that is facilitated in the bonding process. So if a woman experiences an orgasm with a man, there is a greater probability she will begin to bond with him. So by deduction I assume the singing is a bonding experience as well.

Now that brings to question what chemicals are released in the brain that cause the "fog" of the affair. That is that "in love" feeling. Is that oxytocin as well?

So, technically then, singing during orgasm would release a double dose? I don't know if it would work. I think it would certainly be disconcerting!

tl

I really found this very useful, to gain an insight into what a WW may be thinking and feeling. I have been struggling for a while over a one off incident that my wife, then girlfriend got involved in. It was minor in the big scale of things, lead to nothing and was done at a time when I had finished the relationship, as you will read, but I still could not for a long while uncrerstand how someone could feel that being in the arms of another, even breifly, could solve any problems.
The truth is, it doesn't, as Mrs W quite eloquently puts it, "she felt trapped". I have used the phrase " sit on someone for long enough and they will wriggle" as few times. Never has it felt so true, having read Mrs W's thread.

I neglected my partner in every way possible, so much so that she wanted out and wanted to feel attractive and loved and cared for. All the very simple things that she should have been feeling from me.

Following are some extracts from a letter my partner at the time wrote to me as my obsessive nature meant that I was caught up in detail and ended up arguing every time we tried to deal with it. My Partners view was that to understand where she was coming from, maybe a written explaination would have put things a little more in perspective.

I found it very helpful and indeed began to see wher it was that we had both gone wrong and how it could be fixed.

She wrote.....

"I emphatically know I will not do this again�not ever. I am not the person I was, you are not the person you were, there is an us now. I will never to that to myself again, let alone to you. You seem to forget any contributing factors and assume that I just did it on a whim. I have let everyone down in such a huge way and done SO much damage, why would I ever even allow myself to get anywhere near that situation again?! Also darling, I have us now. We are everything to me and now I can truly say I know you love me�I never felt that before. I also feel respected and appreciated by the one person I wanted to feel those things from. SO much has changed. I wanted to leave you and, up until you said otherwise, I truly believed that�s what you wanted. I was sick of the way you treated me, sick of my life, sick of being so feeble as to not stand up for myself�If you hadn�t had begged me to come home I would have been gone. I still didn�t know if I was doing the right thing. You were, and still are, very good with words. So many times I�d heard you tell me things would change but they�d always revert eventually. It was a conscious decision not to tell you about the 5 minutes of selfishness. The way I saw it was that no good would/could come of telling you, especially as it still might be over anyway. Could you/ would you really change? Did you really love me?

That night (or the few minutes at the end of it) was not about the person in question�how can I get that through to you?! You say I have youth�I have had children to look after since I was 24, I never went out except for once in a blue moon and by wanting my youth back,and to travel, I meant independently, exploring, care-free and adventurous�the kind you do when you�re young, single and obligation free�the kind I was planning to embark on the day we met. I have said before, I was intrigued by a lifestyle�not him and by god, I am over the longing for a different life. I KNOW what I want and it is what I have now. I appreciate all that is my life now. I don�t want more space�I�m happy with how it is. I rarely want to go out and if I did it would be with you!

I ask for time but understand if you cannot do this. I have done something so appauling and abhorrent that if losing you is my punishment then I cannot blame you.

I believe we can get through this�it is what I want most�I wholeheartedly adore you. I loath the fact that the stability I have always craved has now be jeopardised by, of all people, me. It�s messed up!I choose you. I am so proud to be your wife. I want us to be married forever. In the last year I have finally got you back�those years of pain and hurt have finally proved to be worth it�I CAN�T lose you now!! Please baby, with time we can rebuild the trust."

Basically, I had done everything but meet my partners emotional needs. Neglect had been the theme for many years and even though she had had ample opportunity to have any number of affairs along the way, she stuck by me until one night, someone very kind showed her affection at a moment when I had yet again finished the relationship on a whim, and the rest is history.

What I do understand is that an affair, or anything that can be described as infidelity, is a selfish act that sometimes represents how a person feels, in that fantasy is involved. My partner came to her senses very quickly and when she eventually confessed she was at that point willing to do anything to prove her truth (polygraph, phone bills,emails etc etc) so that we could start fresh and understand where it all went wrong.

No one ever held a gun to her head, but I had certainly made life so intollerable that for a brief moment, fantasy looked the better option.

I know now that every day, and we are married now, work has to be done to ensure that we are both fulfilled emtionally and otherwise. After a while it is not work, but a pleasure, but it is a learning curve for all those that have been unfaithful of have had infidelity inflicted upon them.

Communication is where it is really. I never knew how my partner felt and she was too scared to tell me. Now, we talk every day about everything and nothing and the rest feels so easy and natural. We were lost, we nearly lost each other, but sometimes one needs a kick up the backside to shake one into getting things right.

I have regrets about my part in this and obviously my wife does to, but it has defined us in a way and forced us into a position where we had to look at our relationship as never before. I am truly grateful that we did, and am oddly thankful that this happened as it did, as had it not, it may well have got to a stage beyond repair.

There is hope for any couple who will truly stop and take time to evaluate what they have and why. Cause and effect are symptoms of two peoples problems in a relationship, and whilst it is not OK to cheat, one has to look at both sides of a story to fully understand why these things happen and how to prevent them happening again.

Uh no...You misunderstood for sure, bingo - My saying I felt "trapped" was a bunch of wayward hogwash that I said while foggy and addicted to my affair partner...I never felt "trapped" pre-affair - I was married to Mr. W by CHOICE - NEVER EVER has he been controlling or obsessive...

You bingo are in an affair marriage - and that's a whole different ball of wax...Your "wistress" may indeed feel trapped by you based upon your refusal to take medication for your Bipolar Disorder...That particular mental illness, left untreated, absolutely comes with issues of being controlling and obsessive...

You MUST STOP implying that affairs are the fault of both parties in a marriage - THEY ARE NOT - the WS is to blame 100% for their choice to cheat! Of course in your affairage I can see why you would think like that - you are both unrecovered cheaters - unrecovered cheaters are professional blame shifters - put them together and it's no wonder that personal responsibility goes out the window...Make no mistake about it though bingo, in your first marriage your ex-wife did NOT cause you to commit adultery with your OW...The blame for that is completely on you...

There is more I could say, but I'll stop, as I know it will fall upon deaf ears...

Mrs. W

**edit**

I used the words trapped. Not my wife ! She never blame shifted and took full responsibility for what she did. It would have been wrong however for her not to point out how she felt at the time, or more importantly, how I made her feel. Surely that is to do with fulfilling a partners emotional needs is it not ?

Not every obsessive or controlling male out there is bi-polar, it is possible in the real world that we learn behaviour from our parents etc.

**edit**

In the real world, not everything conforms to what you think. We are all individuals !!

Thank you for calling my wife a liar. It is much apprecaited and helful. As you have never spoken to her I would advise that you keep your opinions to yourself about that.

**edit**

Let's keep posts respectful. Its ok to disagree, its not ok to attack other posters.

Bingo, you should just not go on a thread with the title of Mrs W on it since you clearly dont like the W's

...why do you keep trying to start trouble....they are on here to help people that are willing to admit they need help because they care about people...so I guess there is no need for you do be on the surviving an affair forum, as has been stated before....

You just seem to want to start trouble here. JMHO.

**EDIT**

STOP!!

I thought you gave up on here a long time ago...but you still seem to be on the forum attacking Mrs. W. and starting trouble in my opinion.

I'm still looking forward to hearing your thoughts, rc2009...

Mrs. W

P.S. Thanks for looking out for me, StillHere!

I am certainly not trying to cause trouble, and I was actually agreeing partially with what Mrs W was saying, just adding my own situation to what she had said.
I am married. It matters not a jot how or why ! I am committed to my marriage and have described a situation that happened prior to taking my vows.
What happened in my last marriage was agreed and with no regrets from either party as it was a mutual decision made with no one waiting in the wings at the time on either side (as far as i am aware ).
In an ideal world we would all meet our spouses as singletons in every sense of the word and court in a way that means that all baggage carried from the past is dealt with and does not form part of a new relationship.
Sometimes this is not possible and sometimes, marriages do fail for whatever reason.
That is no reason to attack people who are trying to make marriage work in whatever circumstances they find themselves in.
I have read threads here that make my life sound so uncomplicated that it is unreal, but I would no attack that person on blame them for what has happened in their lives.
Most things happen for a reason and I was just pointing out that, having experienced it from the other side, I can see, at times, how lack of communication and certain behaviours can make "fantasy" a little more tempting. I was not condoning it and certainly not making an excuse for it, just stating that I know, catagorically, that had I been more attentive, I would not be here now !
I don't have a gripe with the W's at all. Just the way that they can be sooo judgmental.
Peace

**edit**

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