My wife and I are going through some rough times once again. 4 years ago, I had an A (she is hangnthere if you want to read up on it) and we used this site to recover and fall in love again. We got married 6 months after all the help this site provided.

About a year after we were married, we had our second child and my wife went into postpartum depression that I guess I failed to recognize. I love her dearly, but after that, she started verbally abusing me again, and I reacted through withdrawal. It got to the point where we both felt ignored, but her more so because she was looking for a reaction out of me she wasn't getting. Now she says she is no longer in love with me. It hurts.

I think the biggest issue is that we fell back in love, but failed to learn how to stay in love.

She is still open to me, somewhat. She wants to bury our "old" relationship and hopes that we can start anew.

Every time I think I am making progress, (plan A), she says I am smothering her and we take a step back.

I want my wife back, I want my life back.

Stats: Together 9 years, Married 3, almost 4 years out of D-Day, 3 children aged 5, 2, and 10 months.

I want to open a dialogue with some of you (LovingAnyways especially) to help me understand my wife better, and to help me understand my own feelings better and to help guide me through my attempt to win back my wife's love.

We have to end this cycle. I want us to fall in love this time, and stay that way. Life is a long time, and too long to keep going back and forth this way. We ARE best friends, we ARE great lovers. We ARE terrible communicators.

THANKS!!

Seems like you see where you reverted to old behaviors (first HIT, then you), and I hear you asking me how to make both of you stay in only new behaviors, is that correct?

Oddly, I believe the only way to make new behaviors stick is by falling into old ones and catching ourselves, again and again. Sounds like your expectation not only helped trigger the old behavior, but that you still have it now. Back and forth is how we learn, I believe...reaffirming what we really don't want and retraining our brains.

So the important part isn't the reversion, it's the redemption...how you repair when you err, you might say. And yes, it's really tough...and the back and forth happens with longer times in between...so it really does change...from what might have been often or constant, to annual or rare. And yet, being human, when we trigger to old, we feel as if we're starting all over again, instant wipe out to what we did.

Our experience, not reality.

Have you told HIT that you're here? Can I advise for you each to sit down separately and examine your own code, where your boundaries were three years ago, and be super honest and see where you moved your boundaries, stopped enforcing them around yourself?

Please explain the semi-separation, too...and tell me if you would counsel with the Harleys by telephone this time. Also, did you read Fall in Love, Stay in Love?

When you learn to repair, you will end the cycle. However, the cycle will come, just won't last long...from weeks to days to minutes...depending on when you enforce your boundary to repair, amend.

And I believe if it hadn't been PPD, it would have been another thing that hit your W's higher level...what I mean is, we revoke our permission to AO and think we're revoking it for "all AO's"...when in reality, our brains say to us, "Okay, when you're this mad, THEN you're permitted to AO." We hit higher and higher levels over time...and here we were, thought we'd taken care of AO'ing and it comes back when the anger/pain/frustration hits higher than before, or higher than before you revoked the permission to act it out.

Which is another part of why we trigger, keep the cycle, keep retraining our brains. Not once and forever...just like us, dynamic, changing beings.

And you both are. And yes, O&H communication, respectful behaviors...and no, do not Plan A someone who is LBing...maybe she feels as if you weren't there to rely on catching her, leading her...something, after the birth of your youngest child...which would "justify" the abuse, see? Really be there for her now, out of respect, because your W does NOT want to AO or DJ...it's not who she really is...and I believe it takes a team, committed partners in The Marriage to repair and redeem.

Not one of you against the other...so both here, separate threads if possible, would be great. I think it would make some much needed love deposits in your bank, Jim...and in hers. You really can fall in love again and again...and know in between, you really love, and are loved, even when you don't feel it temporarily.

You can do this. Welcome back.

LA

I feel I need to add this as well. 3 weeks ago my wife and her sister were fighting and the sister says to my wife..."Why don't you go call Brian?" My name is Jim. The next day I called my wife from work and ask who Brian was and she lied. Then when I got home she asked me why I took so long to ask, and I told her to give her time to be honest about it. She then told me she had been talking to him via the phone. When all was said and done, I had found out she had given him her number a month prior and that he had just called and they had only been talking for 2 days. I tried to cope and not be a jealous husband. A few days later she went to meet him at a coffee house to see his friends band play. She came home at 8AM. We had had a bad fog that night and it WAS hard to drive....but first a hidden relationship and then an overnight stay? Three days later she meets him for coffee again, this time she is home when she said she would be. 2 days later....she goes to Walmart at 10PM. Comes home at 1AM with all these excuses why it took so long, but in her purse was a receipt that she checked out at Walmart at 10:45PM. I asked her why she lied, she said she just needed to get away. She didn't want to hurt my feelings.

2 days later...she goes to her friend Erin's house and when she comes home at 11AM the next morning does not understand WHY I am freaking out and asks me to leave. Admittedly, I am freaking out and not making her life any easier, but I felt like all the pieces added up to an A.

So I left. I have been spending time with my kids at nioght though and one night she asked if I could sit with them while she went out. I found out she was going to see Brian and I freaked out again. My first reaction was to say no...I cannot babysit while you do THAT. But then I let her go. I figure if she is going to be with me, then I need the confidence she will choose me.

She claims he is just a friend. They talk every day, and when they are not talking, they are texting. It makes me jealous because I want to be her everything, and since she walked me out of an A 4 years ago, I thought she would understand that we should not have PRIVATE friends of the opposite sex. It is not healthy for a respectful marriage.

So I called him...I felt I needed exposure. He assured me it was just friendship. He has been unemployed for a year, just had to sell his house and move to an apartment and has custody of his 9 year old daughter. Last thing he said he needed was a complication in his life like that.

She also says it is just freindship, and that my phone call almost ruined it because he did not want to be in our drama.

I also met him...when he moved he sold us a Kenmore Elite Front loading washer for $100, so I had to meet him.

He does seem nice, and he is my POLAR Opposite...he is 5'6", 125 lbs wet, and older than me. I am 6', 300 lbs, a BIG guy.

I just think that that type of relationship is inappropriate and that the trust in our relationship was once again broken.

Thanks

I need to know what AO and HIT are....I know most of the acronyms...lol.

And thank you for the welcome back. I think this time I will never leave.

So if I hear you correctly, the cycle repeats because were are not repairing after each tear down. So we tear more and more.

The thing I do not understand, is what do do. I am TRYING to deposit love units, but she is LB'ing, and if she does that, it is hard to do anything.

There is also what I consider an EA...maybe not a PA, but an EA although she denies it. To me that is a distraction. She claims that she can talk to him and that he is MY biggest advocate, that he tells her she needs to fix it. And that she calls her on her "BS".

As someone who has been down that road...those are the words of someone waiting until the day that she says..."I can't repair it", at which time he swoops in to fill her EA's.

As I speak...she is at a deposition in a lawsuit for a bad accident she was in. She did not want to relive it. I told her I would be here for her. She is texting him...not me......I can see the phone activity real time online.

It hurts....do I tell him to step off? Do I need to get rid of him? She will react very poorly if I do.

Thanks

I DESPERATELY want to fill her EN's. Yesterday, I redid mine and asked her to d the same. The exercise where you list them by importance. She has blown it off. So far. SHe seems so unwilling, but yet still wants me to be around to do everything for her, and to be present for SF....but then that seems very unfair for me, but I am TRYING to be there for her...no matter what. That someday she will see....

BTW, what are the terms for teleconferencing with the Harley's?
We are actively seeking counseling...well I am and she is hesitant but willing.

Either of you having friends of the opposite sex is breaking a marital boundary.

Seriously. Hanginthere (which I shortened to HIT) is having an emotional affair EA (and I believe it's already gone physical and was going on longer than she is saying) because she is having her ENs met by another man.

Doesn't matter what he looks like, how he acts, rich, poor, anything...there is no comparison to you...he's not real...she is making him up in her wayward state of mind...she has broken her vows to put her marriage first...and is putting her ENs first because of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

And you are again NOT standing for your Marriage...you say no...doesn't mean she does no...you have to say it. Again, you're not really being there for her...you're betraying yourself even as she is betraying the marriage.

Jim...you know this road from the other side. Stop and stand still. Do NOT rationalize. Do not be afraid to drive her away...she is solely in charge of her own choices. And like her PPD, and depression is part of the wayward mindset sometimes, you have to really be aware, be clear, and BE THERE for her. True friends do not allow their friends to be their worst.

Your marriage is in crisis and you are aiding and abetting the beginning or continuation of her affair. Don't do it. It isn't redemptive, healthy or really loving.

Time for you to shine with fearless love...even when you fear, do which you would if you weren't afraid, 'k?

Stop acting desperate and you'll stop feeling desperate. You are equally powerful...your choices are sole your own, too...do what she did for you to recover from your A...

Plan A (bringing reality, listen and repeat, exposure, research legal rights to keep kids from WS as best you can while they are in a fog), followed by a well-prepped Plan B (complete with knowing your boundaries, path back, where you stay in your home)...

Did you commit to having no friends except friends of your marriage? OM is NOT a friend of your marriage...and hangnthere knows it...she would not stay out all night, show her kids they come last with her when he's around and she would not lie to herself and to you...she knows this is bad...she knows you did it to her...excluded her...you are not privy to everything they say and do...and she's betraying herself and her self respect by not acting to her code...

she needs you to act to yours...and you aren't.

LA

So I am in denial by not telling him to go away? She gets mad at me if I even talk to him. She says that she would be ok bringing this friend as a friend of the marriage, but does not trust my emotions.

She has also told me recently she wants to go "clubbin". Go out and get so drunk she can let her hair down and dance stupid. Bothers me too....she is a mother of 3 children, those days are supposed to be behind us.

Just a few moments ago he called. I said she was not home. He said "Well she has been texting me all day and must not be getting my texts, so I thought I would call". It made me feel like he was rubbing it in. He then asked me how I was doing? Bad mistake.

He is divorced. So I asked him if he and his wife had private friends of the opposite sex. He said yes....but then again, he is divorced and who knows what that story is. Maybe they needed this site.

What if I am wrong? Isn't accusing without REAL evidence a HUGE LB? Or is just having a private male friend enough for me to put a stop to it? After all, I HAVE been on the other side, so wouldn't it be easier for me to jump to conclusions?

Thanks

all over the place. You really need to ask the mods to move this to the surviving an affair forum.

I do not know yet if that is what I am doing.....

Jim,

Ask yourself these questions...

if OM were a friend of the marriage, then he would not speak with WW privately at all...

nothing, no texts, emails, phone calls would not be with both of you present...he would not date your WW, see?

That's what he's doing...he's having private hours (and overnight???) with your WW alone...which is affair behavior. While he's meeting her ENs, it blocks you from doing so for the ones he's meeting.

Tell her this "friendship" is an attack on the marriage; divisive and an intrusion. It's HER choice that she's putting a third person into the marriage.

It can only hold two.

Proof is when she put HIM ahead of The Marriage...broke the rule of care and PORH.

You don't need proof--you have it. Exactly what you wrote she was doing. Sit back and re-read as if it weren't you...you'd say it immediately. Don't buy into her fog, 'k? Please?

LA

Ok, so we have spoken about what has been said here. She claims that she wasn't even looking for an EA, but just a friend, but admits that it may be a bit of an EA, but she doesn't feel quite like it is. She says she knows how it looks, and when stepping outside of it, knows why you all say how it looks to.

I here you loud and clear, which is why I am completely uncomfortable with it.

LA, she will be posting later....

Her post: Ok, LovingAnyway. I'm Here.

jimbobalu,

Your WW is in a PA. I can guarentee it. You need to get on the phone and start counseling with the Harley's and get this thread moved over to SAA. How can you overlook all the red flags? I guess it is hard to face but you have been a WS so you know they lie, justify and gaslight their BS.

So tonite my wife decided NOT to go out and instead stay home and we could have some beers and have fun.

Problem is, she is TOTALLY preoccupied with OM. Even after the events of yesterday, and him rubbing in his time with my wife, does she defend me? No...she is setting an all time text record to him today. I think she has gone over 100 for the day.

She says hey, I could be with him, and not with you, so appreciate it. But if she is here with me, but constantly texting him, is she really here with me?

I am right now hurting and offended and she does not get it, nor does she care. She cannot get out of this EA, it is consuming her and all she can think about. Or so it makes me feel.

Had to vent.

Thanks

So update:

1:00 or so AM, my wife and I are enjoying a couple beers and trying to get a little tipsy and listening to music, unwinding, maybe gonna dance silly a little bit, let our hair down...I WAS SO LOOKING FORWARD TO IT.

Enter OM, he has been texting her all night. But this time he is starting to go overboard. Talking about porn, talking about his penis is 4"...all this inappropriate stuff. She is questioning him, like what is he talking about. He is calling her an airhead. She is like , spit it out, quit talking in code. He than texts "I will be thinking about you again while i am lying down to go to sleep."

WHOAA!!!!!!! Now I know all this because she read my earlier post and understood (I THINK) and was trying to share.

OMG...maybe I overreacted. But I was NOT mad at her, but at him. I had had many conversations with him to RESPECT my marriage she was only looking for a friend ( I do think it was an EA). So I Called him, I told him he crossed the line. He said I know, and hung up.

WHOAAA!!!!! The ca hones on this dude. He blatantly hit on my wife in front of me. He did not know that, but he did. Then told me he knew he did. DUDE...NO LONGER A FRIEND OF MY MARRIAGE!!!

Unfortunately, she got upset at me. She told me "we are separated, and you do not have that right right now" She also told me "You jumped the gun and did not give me time to absorb that and have MY OWN conversation with him"

Pardon me...but we have been talking, and hanging out, and making progress...she even said in her post that if I could chill out, she would welcome me on her Journey. And in this case, if their is to be a conversation, I believe it to be a PLAN A NC conversation, and I need to know it happened.

BUT I WAS RIGHT!!!! He wanted her. I knew it, all along, and she did not see it.

So she left. Left??? Left??? Run away? Get mad at me? I was not mad at her. I was DEFENDING MY MARRIAGE. THAT IS MY RIGHT!!!

After what I saw, HE does not have the right to ever speak to her again in my opinion. EVER.

It is now down to me or him. DID I DO THE WRONG THING? And I am sorry hangnthere if I overreacted. My shock took over. And you and I both know that that conversation and comment could have led me to believe much worse things and could have been a bigger love buster. I have chosen to trust you. SO I lashed out at him, NOT YOU. Please see that. PLEASE. I cannot help but love her. I thought she would see chivalry in what I was doing. I thought it was the right thing.

I guess now I am SAA. In one form or another.

DARN IT!!!!

jim,

Why haven't you moved this thread to SaA yet? You are dealing with an affair and things are getting worse, and you not not posting in the "affairs" forum, where people have more experience.

One thing that you would have been told right away over in SaA is to move back home. You agreed to her request to move out, and all you have done is facilitated her affair and gratified her sense of entitlement. Your absence has allowed this affair to progress to the point where OM can send messages of the kind you have described, and when you challenge her she tells you that it is none of your business because you do not live there. You have been babysitting for her while she goes out doing whatever she likes.

I think the roots of the problem lie with your having become involved with her when she was 18 and you 31, with you already twice married and with another relationship from which there were children. DId you not think that the age differences were unwise?

I also think that she has not recovered from your infidelity (not an affair - you were not married) when the relationship was still new and your child a baby. You, an older man who had had 2 broken marriages, and children, and who should have known better, essentially abandoned her and her young child to have pleasure elsewhere.

You married not long after the cheating stopped, but your wife was now a 21 (or so) year-old with a child, step-children and a much older husband who had been unfaithful. She now has 3 children, one disabled, and is still only 27 and is still resentful of your affair and her life.

This does not mean that the marriage is doomed but I think it needs serious work. The past is done and cannot be changed, but it affects her attitude now. You need to contact the Harley coaching centre today - use the link - and move this thread to SaA. Click "notify" and ask the moderator to move it.

Jim,

Can you reset your mind to stop reacting and only act? Meaning delay your responses to Hnt until you're sure of your words, what you're reacting to? Remember the listen and repeat? Gives you time.

I say this because you seem to me to be following tangents in her fog...so holding still is your best course before taking any steps.

Take hold of yourself and read, research and study...you really don't want to keep repeating reactively. You want to form a plan, make your code and put in a check system where you keep aware of what you're really doing and not doing.

And you need this very much, we all do, and usually we don't get there until we hit rock bottom. Until you form your code, you won't see where you were manipulating, again, last night, instead of stating the truth of her actions.

She can say and you can know differently. Think about it...you can know OM is bad for your marriage...you can say it, to him, to your WW. When you take away all the judgments you get to reality...her choice to text during rare UA time was her choice. Stating that's what was going on, saying that this was exactly what A's are...putting another person ahead of the marriage...the RC time...the UA time together. That's how AP intrude and destroy.

Clear headed, non-reactive...even while your frustration, pain, fear and anger are all bubbling inside you. Calm, respectful...that's bringing reality from love. That level of honesty--not to shame her, get her to see you as one thing or the other--for you to be the anchor of the marriage right now.

Your job is to arrange to have the most UA time, without interruptions possible...to do more acts of service to ensure it, time to listen, one on one, not time to fix her stuff. For you to know schedules week by week, when her stress spikes higher...to come up with RC time to play again together, make it top priority...and to know your own choices. See where you are lying my omission from fear (we all do it) and come clean.

Begin by understanding part of your attraction for Hnt in the beginning...her caretaking, smoothing, fixing, hint of martyr and incredible commitment to being there for you.

It's what has begun undoing your marriage in the last two years...so examine in you that original allure, what her doing gave you permission to not do or not look inside yourself, maybe. All of what you admired in her is in you, Jim. It is. And you can use what you find to save your marriage. Beginning today.

LA

Your WW is not being O&H with you. There was a PA.


This is what you want to believe because the truth hurts. Will she take a polygraph?

Actions speak louder than words - did she send a NC letter?


Yes, you are not following a plan but rather letting your emotions dictate your plan. Are you going to schedule a session with Harley as you mentioned earlier?

Gg

jim: you've moved the thread. Now answer the questions!

Are you moving back home, today?

Has NC letter been sent, was it modelled on the one in the SaA book, and did you approve it and send it yourself?

Have you scheduled a session with the Harleys? You only need to send an email to the coaching centre. You can do this now.