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hope=pain I totally get what you're saying, Hold. You know, sometimes I actually DO feel better when I know something I've done makes H unhappy. His actions seem to deliberately make me unhappy, so if I do something to make him happy, I feel like he got the better of it. Take fighting, for instance. For the sake of the children, I try to avoid conflicts, which means avoiding conversations, with H. When a few weeks go by, and there have been no "conflicts," H is quite happy. He tells our MC that "things are getting better." But in fact, from my perspective, they've only gotten worse. I've had to stifle all the things I want to say, just to avoid any fights. (full disclosure: I'm usually the one who loses her cool) So, every day that goes by without a fight makes H happier, and every day that goes by without a fight means another day I've choked down all my anger, so I feel worse. When we eventually DO have a fight, and that is always inevitable, I think, deep down, I actually feel a sense of relief, that H is finally feeling some of the pain I'm feeling. What a sick and twisted relationship I have!!!! Dang, it sounds even worse when I write about it 
Me:BW, FWH 1DD 1DS
Status: Chronicled in Dr. Suess's "The Zax"
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ima, I've BTDT!!!
It's sorta like Dr. Harley says in the article about the WAW (I think)... about how one spouse will eventually stop complaining, and the other will think things are now getting better, when actually the one who stopped complaining feels worse than ever since the reasons they are unhappy are still going on and they are not being addressed or even discussed.
The key is to keep up the complaints... in a respectful way of course. But to keep telling your spouse when you are unhappy about something. And keep saying it. And keep saying it. In a respectful way of course. Just a statement of fact, of how you feel when X happens. State it before it gets to the point of an argument.
Like the article ML just posted.
It kinda goes against some of what we often encourage each other to do here, because we usually try to focus on what the person posting here can do to make their "side of the street" better. But that does *not* mean to "suck it up" or to "shut your mouth", even though it sometimes may sound like it, especially when we here are focusing on encouraging each other to eliminate LBs and meet ENs, to try to get our spouse to feel enough love toward us that they will want to meet our ENs.
But some spouses are just going to be happy that their ENs are being met and that you have stopped complaining.
That's why it's so great when ppl are getting phone counseling with SH. Because he can get a more complete picture, and he applies the entire concept of restoring love and intimacy whereas we each here tend to become focused on our favorite little piece of MB.
It was SH who told me to keep telling my H when I was unhappy. Even if my H called it nagging (as long as I did it respectfully!). Even when ppl here were advising me not to.
It's a fine line. It's best if you are talking to a pro, if you aren't sure how much is not enough and how much is too much.
Sorry for the T/J... it doesn't have to be a T/J, hold, but you probably don't want to try it again in your own M, do you?
me - 47  H - 39  married 2001 DS 8a  DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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This is the most relevant part of that article to this type of situation, I think: It's very important for both you and your spouse to do a good job meeting each other's emotional needs, and avoiding behavior that causes each other's unhappiness. But when either of you have a complaint, I suggest that you use this procedure:
First, state your complaint as clearly as possible, guaranteeing your spouse's safety by avoiding demands, disrespect or anger. Be cheerful as you discuss the problem, and try to make it brief.
Second, ask for your spouse's perspective on your problem. How does your spouse view this same situation and what might make it difficult for him or her to accommodate you?
Third, brainstorm possible solutions to the problems, looking for a plan that would solve your problem, and at the same time take your spouse's feelings into account. Avoid any solution where one of you gains at the other's expense. Don't give or expect sacrifice because that means that one of you will be losing love units so that the other can gain them. If you sacrifice for each other, in the end, you won't have the mutual love for each other that you want. But also recognize the importance of eventually finding a solution that solves the problem.
Finally, from your list of possible solutions, choose the one that has the enthusiastic agreement of both you and your spouse. That way, the solution will deposit love units into both of your Love Banks simultaneously. If you can't find one that meets that standard, keep brainstorming.
To guarantee your love for each other, you and your spouse must address each other's complaints as soon as they arise. Don't let your problems build up before you find solutions, because the longer you wait, the more love units you lose. But, if you're not careful, the way you go about presenting your problem and trying to find solutions can also cause you to lose love units.
You will not only deposit love units by solving the problems themselves, but you will also deposit love units in the very way you go about solving the problem, if you do it the right way.
Most couples lose love units whenever they have a conflict because they present their complaints with demands, disrespect and anger. And then they look for solutions that help one spouse but hurt the other. That's no way to resolve conflicts, and it's certainly no way to stay in love.
The better you become at stating your complaints with your spouse's feelings in mind, and then finding solutions with the same thoughtfulness, the more you will feel like getting to each problem immediately. But until you get to the place where you feel like presenting your problems as soon as they occur, do it anyway. Don't try to lower your expectations, and don't try to meet your own emotional needs. Instead, learn to become experts at meeting each other's emotional needs. That way you will have what you have always wanted -- a fulfilling and passionate marriage.
here Oops, the link didn't cut-and-paste... it's in the thread titled something like "When to Complain".
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have?
Older But Definately Happier and Wiser
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With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have? I know I am nuts. I keep telling people here I need ECT because I am totally nuts. They keep telling me I don't need ECT because I am not nuts enough. So who is really nuts?!?! Jayne, you are correct. I do not want to go back to constantly complaining. That drove me even more nuts. IMA, I feel yur pain. We get along great as long as I don't complain. Then I remind her my concerns have not been addressed and she says something like "Why are you complaining? I thought we were getting along well." Sheesh!
When you can see it coming, duck!
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With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have? I know I am nuts. I keep telling people here I need ECT because I am totally nuts. They keep telling me I don't need ECT because I am not nuts enough. So who is really nuts?!?! Jayne, you are correct. I do not want to go back to constantly complaining. That drove me even more nuts. IMA, I feel yur pain. We get along great as long as I don't complain. Then I remind her my concerns have not been addressed and she says something like "Why are you complaining? I thought we were getting along well." Sheesh! ZZZackly how I feel. When people ask why I stay, my answer is simple: I love my children and life isn't just about me. Before I had kids, it was ok to drink to excess, jump out of airplanes, do other daredevil stuff, but now that I have kids, I must put them first. Before me. Before H. Because they didn't ask for this. And I sure as heck don't want to lose half of my time with them. Trulyhappy says this is nutz. Well, I've seen what happens in many divorces, and it ain't pretty. An endless parade of skanks and sketchy guys around my kids? Huh-uh. I'll continue to suffer for at least another 8-9 years, because I'm not selfish enough to put my kids through that.
Me:BW, FWH 1DD 1DS
Status: Chronicled in Dr. Suess's "The Zax"
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With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have? I know I am nuts. I keep telling people here I need ECT because I am totally nuts. They keep telling me I don't need ECT because I am not nuts enough. So who is really nuts?!?! Jayne, you are correct. I do not want to go back to constantly complaining. That drove me even more nuts. IMA, I feel yur pain. We get along great as long as I don't complain. Then I remind her my concerns have not been addressed and she says something like "Why are you complaining? I thought we were getting along well." Sheesh! ZZZackly how I feel. When people ask why I stay, my answer is simple: I love my children and life isn't just about me. Before I had kids, it was ok to drink to excess, jump out of airplanes, do other daredevil stuff, but now that I have kids, I must put them first. Before me. Before H. Because they didn't ask for this. And I sure as heck don't want to lose half of my time with them. Trulyhappy says this is nutz. Well, I've seen what happens in many divorces, and it ain't pretty. An endless parade of skanks and sketchy guys around my kids? Huh-uh. I'll continue to suffer for at least another 8-9 years, because I'm not selfish enough to put my kids through that. Don't you think that the children notice miserable parents? I remember telling my Mom and Dad when I was 12 that I wished they'd get divorced, because I really wanted to see them happy. When they finally did separate, we ALL sighed in relief. Mom was now happy and our time with Mom was much happier, and Dad was much happier, and our time together was quality as well. Much better than watching a miserable mother and father pretend to go through the motions for the "sake of the children". I'm jumping in on a thread that has been existing for a long time - so I will just go on back to lurking on this thread.
Older But Definately Happier and Wiser
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THB: Thanks for your input. Sometimes it works that way. Glad it did for you. Not always. And hard to predict. There are successful divorces. And train wrecks. Some kids thrive. Some are decimated.
Given how nuts I am, can you reasonably predict that my divorce would be amicable and not a train wreck? Are you willing to bet my kids' futures on that prediction? I am not.
I am sure my unhappiness affects my kids negatively. That does not mean it affects them MORE negatively than divorce. It may be much less. I wish there was a way to know for sure how it would work out.
When you can see it coming, duck!
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THB-you're correct, these things have been covered elsewhere, and the discussion about whether to "stay for the children" is as old as divorce.
If you came from a home where your parents "happily" divorced, then great. You're one of the lucky ones.
Most of the divorced couples I know:
1. Deal with a disgusting potential step-parent, or parade of new mommies or daddies before one finally takes.
2. Have the frustration of missing half of their children's milestones. You can't both be there for Christmas, for the dance recital, etc. So you get HALF.
3. Have kids that, whether deservedly or not, blame all their troubles on the divorce, especially in the teen years.
So it comes down to your personal experience, IMO. My personal experience says that I better stick this out, for their sake. When they're old enough, you can be darn sure I'm letting them know that my love for them was so great that I did this.
I don't need the "I just wish you and daddy had divorced" talk from my kids. My H has already shown a weakness for very young women, and I really don't want a near-teen raising my teen. Thank you very much.
Me:BW, FWH 1DD 1DS
Status: Chronicled in Dr. Suess's "The Zax"
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ima,
dand, my W loves "discussions" or atleast she use to. I call them arguements, but she loves the back and forth, but hates to be wrong or not getting me to agree. She use to be good at getting me to agree to end the f------ arguement that drove me nuts. Now I just keep up with her and she loses it. I don't know why she does it though, b/c she knows they are opinions that will not change.
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It sounds like the two of you are performing ritual confrontations. Consider the possibility that it is a safe place for both of you. You enable her and she enables you. You are going to have to get out of playing your game in order to force her to quit playing. Just my $0.02.
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Does he want her to quit playing? Or does he like using her misbehavior to justify his own? I know I do.
When you can see it coming, duck!
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So, basically what you guys are saying is that there's a reward for the type of behavior you're using with your spouses? As long as there's some measure of contention in the relationship, what they've put you through doesn't hurt so badly. Is that it?
Sooly
"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."
Me 47
DH 46
Together for 28 years.
Married 21 years.
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For me, it is a combination. One part is the fear that I cannot succeed. Not with my wife. Not with any woman. To the extent I fear I cannot succeed, I am looking for an excuse not to even try. My wife's misbehavior justifies my not even trying. Helps me be more comfortable with my (foolish, unhealthy, shortsighted) choice.
Second, the conflict shows that she is unhappy. If I am going to be unhappy (and I am), at least this way she is unhappy too. I know, not the most loving attitude. But at this point, after trying and failing for 8 years, it hurts less to fight than to cater to her needs with no reciprocation. When I do that, I feel like a wimpy doormat. When I refuse to do what she wants, I feel more powerful.
Dr. Harley would say "don't fight, negotiate to get your own needs met". BTDT. I have given up hope of getting my needs met.
When you can see it coming, duck!
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It is a self empowering situation, Soolee, so yes it does seem that way. My W is kind of getting it though. She is finally figuring out that in a M there are TWO people, not employer and employee, which is how I was treated for years. Bad employee... demoted, good employee... a pat on the back. What she didn't understand is how that type of relationship was hurting our M, and me. She couldn't grasp that it wasn't working or why it wasn't working.
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Mrs. Hold and I went to dinner with friends of hers from college Friday night. Saturday night we went to a party for a friend's child. Friday Mrs. Hold had 2 glasses of wine. When we got home, she asid "don't come near me or I'll puke on you." So I went and played PS3.
Saturday when the dj played a song I like I put my hand gently on the small of her back and nudged her toward to dance floor. She snapped "don't push me, I hate that". I replied "of course you don't, God forbid you should ever do anything I want". I know, bad Hold, not a loving response. Should have said "Good to know. I will never nudge you again."
Today I called her from work (got here early and computer froze twice so accomplished nothing from 6 to 8 am - argh) to tell her I sent the fax she asked me to send. Just a quick FYI. She wanted to stay on the phone longer. I cut her off. I got huge pleasure from cutting her off. She was asking for more connection. Emotional connection. More time being the object of my attention. I enjoyed rejecting her. After all the times she rejected me. It is a joy to turn the tables on her.
I know that is a bad secondary payoff. And I should strive to reach a win-win for both of us. But I do not believe a win-win is achievable. I do not believe my needs will ever get met. So I settle for emotional junk food.
When you can see it coming, duck!
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Good morning Hold:
I'm not going to argue with you about marriagebuilding techniques and applying them, or resentment and its issues or any of that. I understand you are making the choices you are making, though it makes me sad and leaves me to wonder if there are areas of your life where you are getting enjoyment to help counter the misery of your marriage?
But FWIW, I absolutely *hate* being pushed along by my husband, my kids or anyone. I'm barely 5'2", have hovered near 110-115lbs most of my life and I just don't take up a lot of space in this world. It's very upsetting to be moved around like a china doll and I have been known to snap, even when it's inadvertent. I'm not justifying Mrs. Hold's actions--she certainly could have communicated her dislike of that action wtihout snapping...I'm just passing along a female perspective.
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I know she dislikes being nudged. She has complained before. My bad for thoughtlessly doing it again. I should have verbally asked her if she was interested in dancing with me.
I know I should be all in or all out. Commit to doing whatever it takes to get both of our love banks back to positive balances. Or end it.
I am choosing to do neither. And getting what I signed up for.
When you can see it coming, duck!
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I know how you feel, hold.
Because my H exerts much of his power over me by withholding information (that there's a babysitter coming over, that he purchased something expensive, etc.,) I like to withhold back, just so he gets a taste.
Yes, we're both engaging in independent behavior almost 24/7, but that's the physics of the relationship. For every action, there's an equal-but-opposite reaction. You play games with me, I play games with you.
Ain't no way I'm going to smile and play nice-wifey when H continues to emotionally torture me.
Me:BW, FWH 1DD 1DS
Status: Chronicled in Dr. Suess's "The Zax"
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