Expose this to the FBI. Go right to the top.

I do not have a WW i have a faithful wife and we are now coming up to a year of marriage. I don't care what anyone thinks, the person who started this thread asken a question from people who may have some experience of this. I have.
I am not condoning affairs at all, they are hateful, hurtful and destructive things. I had one and have had a ONS done to me. Totally dreadful.
Some will last and some will not... that's the truth. Percentages are the wrong way of looking at this as they cannot be accurate.
If, everyone in the end has found happiness then life is too short to not hope for that.That is not condoning this behaviour, but in some cases a marriage cannot be saved and in this case, with a child on the way, it is looking very difficult, even if the WW wants to come back. Can this person take her back with another persons child in her hands. That, surely is a good reason to move on and try to find an alternative way of living.
I wish you all luck.

My H took me back, and is raising the OC as his own. It does happen. His WW would have to want to come back, of course, and ID has no control over that. Nor can he control the success or failure of his STBxWW's affairage.

Oh boy Karma, you got that right.

A few thoughts.

1. I'm a former Mormon. I live in Utah, with my LDS wife and kids. I'm a nonbeliever, yet I don't smoke, drink, womanize, or as far as I can tell do anything else which would disqualify me from LDS membership other than disbelieve the whole church thing (well, and have a cup of coffee perhaps once or twice a month). From my non-religious perspective, MarriageBuilders is about taking care of one another, finding time for each other, protecting one another from our worst instincts, and being totally honest with each other. That recipe works regardless of your religion -- or lack thereof -- and hoping that someone feels a supernatural [censored] of conscience isn't part of that plan. Don't pin your hopes on others... work on yourself.

2. Is it just me, or do affairs from Utah -- with far less than 1% of the US population, not to mention the international board members -- seem really over-represented on this board?

3. I was raised in my latter teenage years under an affairage, and can testify to the extreme destructiveness of living through that. The way I see it, if you have an affair-marriage that lasts longer than 5 years, you aren't a "lucky 3-percenter"... you're just part of the 5% that managed to do such a horrific mind-job on a desperate spouse that you kept your affair alive until you could marry. Then if you're part of the 1 in 3 affairages that survive more than 5 years, it's only because you've implemented the kind of principles in your new marriage that you should have applied to your old one... and you would have been better off having done so.

Take it for what it cost you -- nothing -- if you like, but my mother's affair left me extremely bitter and hating both her and her now-deceased affair partner-nee-husband, and my wife's (thankfully, unconsummated) affair has dredged up those old bones.

Affairs have extremely long-lasting implications. Just because the affair partners or their betrayed spouses have moved on doesn't mean the children have.

DNM (Barnboy): I liked the old name better, maybe because I live in a house that is shaped like a barn.

ID isn't from Utah though, and neither am I. Maybe you meant that the LDS religion seems over-represented on this forum?

By the way, I don't go to church anymore either. Haven't been in 2 1/2 years. There are a lot of reasons for that, which I've chosen not to get into on this forum. My name is still on the records, however.

I agree that it is the children that pay the ultimate price in these situations, and that is terribly unfortunate. I grew up an OC, raised by a single mother who was an OW, so I too understand the long-term implications of A's. I have a lot of bitterness as well. It was very difficult to develop a healthy identity when it was made perfectly clear to me that I was someone's "dirty little secret," so awful, in fact, that half of my "family" didn't (and still don't) know that I even exist.

Let's not worry too much about religion, it matters in my particular case, but it's not one of the "weightier matters". My WW has to deal with that side, I'm at peace with the Lord.

Truly, the children are going to be the victims, particularly the OC. When my kids are with their mom, they're going to have to battle with the affection mom is now giving to OC and OM. OC will grow up knowing he was conceived in an act of adultery. And yes, there will be the constant drama from my WW.

So...what's the best thing? Short of NC and marital resolution (which just ain't gonna happen) the very best thing is doing my best to keep the peace. It means being a doormat at times. It means that I won't always get my way. But in the end, it will hopefully mean that my kids will come out of this with fewer wounds than they otherwise might receive. Because contention will screw up my kids worse than anything else - that's a proven fact.

So yeah, it sucks. But that's life sometimes - making the best out of the situation you are forced into.

According to Dr. Frank Pittman, the "mortality rate" of affair-marriages (AM) is as follows:

5 years -- 75%
10 years - 90%
"Lifetime"- 95%

I do not know the particulars of your WW's situation or of the other AMs you cited, but know that even these generally daunting odds are OPTIMISTIC in most specific cases. Here's why...

These stats take into account ALL AMs -- even those that are 'done right' (in a twisted sense obviously) from the get-go. He cites a number of criteria that seem to be associated with a much higher liklihood of AM "survival". This is not an exhaustive list but covers the biggies that I recall (and please understand that I'm not condoning this but merely illustrating the factors involved):

1) The AM-partners (AMP) take lots of TIME between divorce(s) and re-marriage. They do not rush in "as soon as the ink is dry" or even within a few months, but wait AT LEAST a full year before re-tying the knot. They usually maintain separate residences while 'dating'.

2) The AMP are either both childless or both have adult/grown children. Blended families, and particularly single-sided ones, are highly problematic even in 'normal' marriages much less AMs.

3) The previous marriage(s) being left were TRULY AWFUL unions. Not just the typical 'drifted apart' or 'needed improvement', but horrifically dysfunctional from the start.

4) The AMP truly gave their full and sincere effort to rescuing their marriage(s) prior to the affair and left it rationally rather than purely emotionally. IOW, the relationship between the AMPs was NOT a just flight-of-fantasy romantic "I-just-fell-in-love-with-someone-else" escape.

5) The AMP were very upfront and honest about their relationship from early on to their spouse(s) and didn't scapegoat/blameshift/badmouth their stbx(s) too badly.

6) The AMP made great efforts to genuinely & successfully win the voluntary support of their family and friends. No deceit or coapting was involved.

7) The AMP are generally well-matched individuals: similar ages, tastes, interests, plans, goals, beliefs, persoanlities, etc.

8) The AMP MUTUALLY decided to marry later as a logical, eyes-wide-open choice between them. They didn't enter the AM from a childish ga-ga, 'soulmate', BFF, emotionally-addicted infatuation state nor did they do so out of need , insecurity, or dependency.

9) There was minimal "disparity of sacrifice" between the AMP. IOW, they both came from fairly similar places in their respective life-situations. One partner did not 'give up much more' in terms of career, education, family/friends, desire-for-children, finances, hobbies/recreational-pursuits, religious practice, or ethical-compromise than the other in order to stay together.

10) The AM is the 2nd marriage at most for both partners.


Yes, there are some AMs that meet (at least most) of these criteria and those are the ones with the highest liklihood of staying together for decades. If you take even a casual perusal around MB and perhaps around your WW's possible-AM, you will see massive violations of the above. Examples:

1) Vast age differences
2) AMP with virtually NOTHING complementary/compatible between themselves besides sexual organs.
3) Shotgun, rapid-fire AMs hot on the heels of divorce(s)
4) Blended families...often very-poorly blended ones
5) Ex-spouses and ex-marriages that were highly scapegoated and highly-salvageable repectively. Usually little genuine effort was made by the AMP(s) before running off.
6) Enormous emotionally-laden puppy-love/soulmate fantasy in one or both of the AMP.
7) Very little honesty, introspection, and reflection about the previous relationship before AM'ing
8) Broken and strained family/friendship relationships
9) Substantial "disparity of sacrifice" between the AMPs in order to maiatain the relationship. One often sells out virtually everything once important to them while the other doesn't have to or didn't care that much anyway.
10) The AM is the 3rd or greater marriage for one of the partners.


When you see an abundance of these latter factors, I doubt that the 'mortality rate' is much less than 90% at 5 years and 100% over a lifetime.

Well, my WW was 2 for 10 on that list but who knows, they may tough it out. I'm almost beyond caring. WW moves out on Saturday and that will be that.

BTW, SDCW_man, I want to thank you for a post you wrote a while back:


That really opened my eyes to the type of woman I was dealing with and forced me to ask some tough questions, questions I should have been asking myself a long time ago. My WW had at least 6 items on that list, if not more.

Anyways, thanks for the insight!

You're good people, ID. I wish you all happiness.

Me, too. I knew nothing about BPD, NPD or ASPD before my therapist and my lawyer told me to look into these areas to explain what I had been through.
The list above is , essentially, a mirror of the DSM criteria for personality disorders. If you are dealing with someone like this, run.
You also need to start looking within to figure out why you were willing to accept this treatment.

I hope things start to settle down for you after Saturday, ID. Where is she moving to?

She's staying in the area - it's really the only way to make joint custody work (we've agreed on a week-on/week-off plan). In fact, I put a clause in the divorce agreement that neither party can move out of the immediate area without a court order. I'm certainly not going anywhere, all my family, friends, etc. are here. But I suspect that WW and OM will try to move out of state within a few years. My WW's shortsightedness is going to force her to either stay put for the next 16 years or hand over full custody to me.

I think things will settle down. While I absolutely love my children, a week off will help me maintain a good home and keep things peaceful, as opposed to what I suspect will be a very stressful WW residence.

Good job getting all your ducks in a row.

It was especially a smart move on your part getting your wife to agree to not move out of the area.

My WW has 7 of those traits. I guess I am in trouble huh?

WW moved out on Saturday - DS12 b-day. The depths that WW will sink to seem endless. When she first talked of moving out, WW emphatically said that OM would NOT be living with her until they were married (why, because it's immoral...stupid, stupid). Oh well, that lasted all of 0 days. Of course OM is living with her. They are now a nice happy family in their ghetto house in a crappy area. P*&s on 'em.

On the upside, the more WW moves her crap out the better I feel. I can't believe how much junk she had! It's amazing the piles of stuff we collected over the years. This purging is very therapeutic. Couple that with snowboarding in Mammoth the next few days and I'm a happy camper.

InD: I doubt your WW and the OM are ever going to be anything close to a nice happy family. Under the circumstances, "nice" is already out.

On a more positive note, snowboarding sounds fun. My oldest son is working at a ski resort in Crested Butte, Colorado this winter. He gets unlimited free lift tickets and is having a blast learning how to snowboard. Have fun in Mammoth!

So what does her church think of her co-habitation plan?

I'm pretty sure InD said his WW was excommunicated. I seriously doubt she has maintained any ties with the church.

By the InD, how are your kids holding up through all of this?

yes, WW was excommunicated. She has not been to her new ward yet (she spent Sunday shopping). Church certainly would not approve of cohabitation but that's her problem to deal with. I don't think she will be going back to church for a while. She says she will, but people in her new ward+stake already know. Ahh...gossip travels quickly.

The kids are doing well, but I don't think they fully grasp the situation. The *know* what's going on from a factual standpoint but I don't think they can see the future implications of everything. So, they are generally happy. But I'm interested to see how they adjust to the back and forth between two homes.