Yep, choosing neither puts you in that exact place, either happy or misery.

In choosing to be all out; you can then begin to work on how to be in that place without really burning the bridge right now.

And it starts by looking within on what you want to change in your life; without having any dependence on her (actions, judgement, opinions).

CWMIs thread really hit home today. She said she will not lower her standards and she expects more from her husband. I hope he is willing to accept that challenge.

If my wife told me she expects more from me, I would tell her to go fly. I know that does not make me a "buyer" in MB terms.

Yup, good boundaries. I'm always interested in how it reciprocates though.

I think CWMI has good boundaries. I do not. I should demand more from myself. I should have standards I will not compromise. I don't.

Hold,

I don't think you nudged thoughtlessly. I think you believe your wife should not dislike nudging. So you do it, anyway.

And whispering in her ear, hand on the lower back (not pushing at all), saying "I want to dance with you right now, to this particular song" isn't all in...just as not doing it is all out.

It's one moment, one way, with respect to what you want and to what you know she dislikes...so that you do not self-sabotage your wants. Like you know nudging did.

Maybe it's an old movie scene in your head, dashingly masculine, where her going with the nudge would make a big deposit, beyond even the dancing together...don't know. Take a look. Then I dare you to tell her what her choice would mean to you had she chosen differently.

And own up that you did that which you knew she disliked and expected her to not react to her feelings, but to do in spite of them. For you.

Which is exactly what you're often unwilling to do yourself.

And these are just two moments...not a plan to improve your marriage, not a plan to improve you or break or remove your resentment...

just you choosing two times to do differently, for the fun of seeing what's next. You might get to dance. You might not. You might dance right where you were standing.

She didn't get love deposits into your bank for not erping on ya?

LA

I did nudge thoughtlessly. The memory that she dislikes nudging was wholly absent from my consciousness when I nudged her. Hopefully, her complaint will burn it more fully into my consciousness so I do not do it thoughtlessly in the future.

So the song starts. And I want to dance. I know she does not want to grab her hand and drag her onto the dance floor. Or nudge her toward it. So I ask her politely. Without nudging. And see what she says. Hmmmm.

Tell her how much it would mean to me for her to say "yes, I would love to dance with you?"

Nah. Too vulnerable. I would rather be quietly and desperately miserable than give her the opportunity to reject me yet again. Next time, I hope I remember that she hates being nudged so I can walk away before I betray my thoughts and give her a chance to reject me again. I'd much rather reject myself than let her do it.


Erping???? Throwing up? No, no points for not throwing up on me. I'd rather she attempt sex and throw up than pre-emptively reject me.

I know how hard this is for her. That doesn't help me sympathize. It just convinces me that success is impossible so I might as well play video games and reject her as thoroughly as she rejects me.

She wanted a husband who does not press her for sex. Who is not constantly asking for sex. I told her years ago to be careful what she wished for - she might get it. Now she has it. Somehow I don't think it is as wonderful for her as she expected.


Fun? Fun in uncertainty? There is no fun in my life except when I am playing paintball or playing video games. There is certainly no fun that involves Mrs. Hold.

Years ago Starfish told me I need more fun in my life. Still relevant advice. Harley would say that fun should involve Mrs. Hold. Not. Going. To. Happen. Fun leads to desire. Desire leads to pain. Only way to avoid the pain is to forestall desire. There will be no fun involving Mrs. Hold.

HOLD, there is no way you can properly deal with a RUDE, MEAN, SELFISH, DYSFUNCTIONAL, STUBBORN woman.

NO ONE COULD DEAL WITH HER.

You have the disadvantage of TRYING to deal with her all these years and it has warped you so you are not looking at her with fresh eyes and cannot try new behaviors.

If you were to look at Mrs HOLD with fresh eyes, literally you would go blind. If you are to try and deal with her with new creative ideas, you would be banging your head against a large brick wall.

This woman you married is terribly RUDE, HURTFUL, and does not care about you or your feelings. No decent woman says "I will throw up" in the bedroom to tell you she does not want sex.

No decent woman says "Dont PUSH ME, I HATE THAT!" in public which is meant to DEEPLY HURT YOU, humiliate and control you.

Your wife is even more heinous now....than I remember her to be.

Your wife needs a husband who is either:

1. A RICH BUT SEXLESS PRIEST
2. A DIRTBAG IN A TRAILOR WHO SHE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SEX WITH
3. NO ONE AT ALL -IN OTHER WORDS SHE IS NOT FIT TO HAVE A HUSBAND.

So why don't you dance alone? I know you mean dancing figuratively, but I've done it literally, and it brought my partner to the floor. In my case, it was a convoluted mess of male/female roles, but it got him dancing, eventually, to the beat of dominant male/submissive female roles.

Literally.

And it took a societal message for him to take the role.

Hold, do you need a societal message for you to take the lead here?

I'll start: Hold, the success or failure of your stature as a husband and a man begin and end with you. Are you proud of your behavior today?

She is not heinous. She is wounded. As am I. Neither of us is working to overcome our dysfunction. So we remain dysfunctional. Individually. And most certainly together.

If we had any sense, we would divorce.

I come here every day and pour raw sewage on my open wounds. And then I wonder why they never heal.

Your wounds never heal because your wife dumps more sewage on them. Even though you vent it out here, we cannot make up for the sewage your wife dumps on you. I call it ABUSE.

Why can't your wife learn to speak nicely to you??? Instead of talking to you like the rude shrew that she is?

No. And I have no intention of ever being proud of myself.

I sincerely wish that you have a husband who does not respond as I have. If my wife expects more of me, she is going to be disappointed. I don't care if I cut off my nose to spite my face. I get a payoff from her being disappointed that I never got while I was trying to succeed and trying to meet her needs. I am willing to sacrifice the rest of my life if it ensures that she remains as disappointed as I have been.

Hold...do you actually get anything out of MBers and the folks here? Just wondering.

You seem to enjoy eliciting attempts to encourage and/or cajole you, but what is it exactly that you're looking for?

How can we help you? Because I think many of us care about you and would really like to help. But we need to know how to do that in a way that it's actually going to make a positive difference for you.

I, for one, think you have qualities that you should be proud of. And I also think that your statements of intent are cries for admiration that you are sorely missing at home.

I also think that if you would pull your head outta your butt, you would see the path toward realization of your intent. I don't expect you to hear me, with your ears all blocked by your glutes and the contents of your colon.

GET YOUR HEAD OUTTA YORBUT!

I think you have fun with your kids...listening, being heard...the sharing...not an obvious kind of fun...and yet, if you really look at it, you experience the unknown each time you listen to them...there is a what next in their sharing...you already experience the unknown in that way, a tiny bit, with a precedent of safety, not rejection.

That's acceptable level of uncertainty to you. So is paintball and video games (you don't know what experience you'll have, how far you'll get...you do get the relief from distraction every single time, though, that cushion of distance, making time pass).

I know you had fun with you invited MrsHold to partake in SF twice in recent months...and had let go the response. Not vulnerable and not closed off...in between. I swear you had fun...and you did over the holidays in New York City...oh, and that was with MrsHold.

Your expectations lead to pain; they are premeditated resentments. Your experience varies.

Funny, though, how you forgot what was important to MrsHold (nudging), even though you knew it would ensure her rejection, how much she hates it, and yet, that didn't hit your radar. And you absolutely hated how much pain you felt when she did what you hated (spent anyway, promised and withheld sf, rejected your advances), didn't even hit her radar.

I think you lie to yourself so that fun does not lead to desire...and you have fun anyway (in ways you won't see). So you tell yourself you don't desire fun (in your formula) with MrsHold and assign it another name. You have companionship, a witness to you, who you are, right there by your side...and it's okay that you call her the enemy in your head, and sometimes in your actions...it's just another of many lies to yourself.

The biggest one is when you tell yourself all this is the truth.

LA

PS...what, you don't use "erping" for throwing up in your world? Seems my boys and DH used that..."Wyatt Erping". I missed the part where you told her you wanted sf with her after the wine. Did you?

Yes HOLD, you do lie alot to yourself. You LIE about being able to CHANGE THE MRS into a nice, normal, non shrewlike polite, kind, caring, non hurtful woman.

Here is what you need in a wife that MRS HOLD can never be nor does she ever want to be.

1. Loves lovemaking
2. Expressive in bed
3. Assertive in bed to get what she wants
4. Kind every day
5. Does not hurt feelings of those around her
6. Is not a shrew and expresses herself with class
7. Likes to make you happy
8. Likes to cook
9. Unselfish
10. Saves money
11. Works full time and saves her money
12. Does physical work around the house
13. Does not want a housekeeper, cleans her own home
14. Looks for ways to invest for the family
15. Studies to find a way for HOLD to retire early
16. Makes her home like a quiet pleasant haven
17. Is so nice that HOLD looks forward to coming home
18. Hold loves to be with her since she is so good to him.
19. Is a giver.
20. Loves and respects HOLD and is happy he is her husband.
21. Shows love and respect for HOLD in public and private.
22. Is polite and not shrill


Right now, your wife reminds me of that shrill actress on "Curb Your enthusiasm" you know, JEFF'S wife who yells at him constantly....with the black hair. Except worse. At least that woman does some of her own housework.

This post is just sad,very very sad! What is even more sad is that Hold is teaching his children that its ok and normal to live this way! How woud they know any different?

You didn't miss anything. I did not mention sex. We had a nice time out with friends. Something we do only rarely. She knows when I have a good time with her present, I get horny. So she pre-empted any request for sex that I may have been considering. Just like she did on our 5th anniversary. The pre-emptive rejection that lead to me insisting on MC. Which, in hindsight, was a huge mistake. Should have kept my mouth shut. And just left.

Back then, I thought I could not do that to my kids (leaving). Now I see that they probably would have been better off if I had left.

She told me the room is spinning and she felt like puking so I would leave her alone. It worked. I left her alone. All weekend. Except for the nudge.

I don't know why I torture myself this way. Staying with her. Trying to stifle my desire for her. I feel like Sisyphus. I can't help wanting her. I know I can't have her anywhere near as often as I want. So I pretend I don't want her. It hurts so much to not be able to be myself. Just as I know it hurts her that I cannot accept her as she is. So much pain. We should separate so that each can be themselves without hurting the other.


I know. Leave. Won't do it.

Or did you mean get my act together and man up and be the kind of man she would find attractive? No, I won't do that. I don't believe I could. And I wouldn't want to give her the satisfaction of being right. I'd rather be miserable than have her be right.

Like I said, I hope you are not married to someone like me.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I think I am married to someone exactly like you, who takes more pleasure in beating someone else than in claiming their own victory. You guys are so sad, and what a waste of time for the rest of us. What kind of pride can you have in being the total waste of someone else's time and emotions?

I'll ask you the Q I pose to my own H: are you proud of the man you are today? Could you die tomorrow, with pride in having done the best with the gifts you were given?

And...do you know that your life is not yet over?