I guess I have to ask why does it have to be all about her? I get the impression, admittedly from him, that for her, it's all about her, and if he shares how she feels, she shuts him out, but if she wants to discuss what's bothering her, then she's open for conversation.

Otherwise she's closed.

If that's the case, and I'm not saying it is, I can see why he would want to discuss his stuff when she's discussing hers, because every other time he wants to bring up his stuff, she's closed.

I'm not saying he can't improve some things. I'm asking what does he do if he NEVER and I really mean NEVER gets the chance to have his concerns heard and validated?

YES. That is exactly what I am feeling.

I can't be enthusiastic any more about discussions where we talk about how badly I've wounded her and exonerate all of her bad behavior. This just isn't working. My taker is not being satisfied.

My taker is ready to kick on the wall about this.

My giver would like to have a polite discussion about it.

But if I say anything about it, I'm told I'm "not listening." And that justifies more bad behavior on her part.

Why does it have to be all about her? It's been all about her for years. When are my concerns going to be addressed? Why do I have to keep extending grace for her outbursts when none is extended to me for mine?

Dr. Harley says if one of us is sacrificing, it's not going to lead to romantic love and marital bliss. He's certainly right.

I think it's time for me to put my foot down and, without engaging in any love busters myself, respectfully request the chance to inform my wife of all the ways that she is making love bank withdrawals from my heart. I came here wanting to know how to make that request, how to do it without any love busters, and how to get what I am looking for.

Markos, I feel that sometimes you accidently marry a selfish, uncaring woman. If she was like this from the beginning, you cannot expect her basic personality to change/.

A woman like this is a controller and has no need to care for your or act nicely. You cannot continue to tell her how you feel since you are assuming that she CARES HOW YOU FEEL.

She does not care how you feel and pretends to be hurt, dismayed at you, gives you the silent treatment, and many other evil marital games in order to keep you off balance, keep her in POWER in the relationship, and make you try and bend yourself into a pretzel trying to develop a good, heatlhy, happy marriage between you two.

My advice? See what kind of woman this is and if she cares enough to change and start caring for YOU. If you have a dud, get a divorce especially if you have no kids yet. Kids do not need to be exposed to a cold, uncaring game player like her. I hope you are young and can get outta this if she is the kind of woman I think she is.

That's a great point Enlightened and as with any ones post we all have our angles based upon our knowledge and our life experiences. And IMHO it doesn't always have to be all about her. But just like you wouldn't try to put a fire out with gasoline I don't believe he can achieve anything until he sees where he's at. Go back to the first page and re-read, especially the long post about the Angry Outbursts.

Markos, her unhappiness did not force you into having angry outbursts. You are not a victim. I see you attacking your problems from a place a weakness rather than a place of power. Relationship talks right now are toxic, so why are you pounding on them and staying entrenched in conflict. And no Markos, if someone is berating you, you do not have to take it but two wrongs will never make a right. Punishing her, keeping score, and holding a tic for tac attitude will leave you exactly where you are at.

On this site if I've learned anything it's that there is 3 sides to the truth, your side, her side, and the truth. Unfortunately, we rarely get to see all three sides and so we have to make assumptions. I think your wife is in serious withdrawl. Based upon the history you gave us, that withdrawl could be a result of something that happened Pre-Markos or based upon your Angry Outbursts it's something that could have happened Post Markos. I don't know but I do know that what you are doing is not working. And if you always do what you've always done you'll always get what you've always got cause nothing ever changes if nothing ever changes.

That being said, your wife isn't here. We can't make suggestions to her. We can't probe her to find things out. We have to make our advice based on one side of the story. I'm telling you that the only power you have and the only thing you can control is you. You have the control to stop ALL LOVE BUSTERS and do no harm. That's a choice, you can choose to harm or you can choose not to harm, which is it? Don't choose to harm when it's convenient or when your butt hurt, dedicate yourself to no harm.

Safety comes from that. Safety that your wife will see. My wife is a TOTAL conflict avoider. And when we used to argue she would go into SERIOUS withdrawl, especially if my voice raised. Come to find out she was in an abusive relationship with a yeller who also sort of pushed her down a flight of stairs. So when I would raise my voice, she went there. So now I was left to decide, harm or no harm in conflict. I guarentee you that I can push my wife into withdrawl with the simple tone of my voice but I choose no harm. When we get into conflict and if it starts to heat up, I stop it. I embrace her and reassure her that I love her and we'll work through this, and it doesn't have to be right now. Does that mean that sometime I have to swallow the old pride sometimes, yes I have to swallow it pretty much everytime and no she doesn't apoligize for those hurtful things said in anger and truly she doesn't need to. YOu have to find what will work and doing harm WILL NOT WORK.

And Honestly Markos it's my belief based upon what I've read that pride is a big thing for you and that's a tough hurdle but I think you're committed enough that you can get over it.

Earlier you mentioned that you have all these books, so what is your wife love language and what is your love language? I ask because IMHO her love bank is in the red and no conflict resolution is going to be done while there. Conflict resolution occurs when the parties have accounts in the black. Wu her, date her, persue her, love her and build up that balance with NO LOVE BUSTERS. Get this relationship to a different place and then you'll have more influence on the communication. That's my opinion.

Since a major problem seems to be in the sack, we may want to talk about that. I find it hard to imagine that after many years together y'all are not connected there, can you go into that deeper?

She has demonstrated a willingness to change to some extent, although I'm not sure she's feeling any at this moment in time.


I'm sorry: HELL NO. Not an option.

There are some folks for whom you just can't "do no harm"

You can offer to have a conversation in a room with a moderator who is trained to make sure it's "safe" for her to be there, and they'll refuse.

Remember, he's the one who said let's see a counselor and she said no.

That's a real big red flag.

My impression, and I reserve the right to be wrong, is that she knows she's acting out and is in fear the counselor will call her on her behavior.

Seems he's owned his behavior. Seems she's avoiding the ownership of hers.

Certainly to me, turning down the safe environment of a counselor is a big red flag.

markos,

It's not really a question of right and wrong, it's a question of what you are willing to live with and what you are unwilling to live with.

You can't change her behavior. However, you can indicate and demonstrate that you care for her, value what she thinks and feels, and that you expect her to meet the standard she is expecting of you.

If she is unwilling to do the same, then maybe you need to make it clear that you are unwilling to be in a one-sided marriage.

Now, she may think exactly the same thing. You both may believe you are giving to one another, yet are missing one another. You may be right, it may be one-sided. She may be right.

However, I think your idea about some professional help is a good one.

If she won't join you in such a path, then perhaps Bubbles has the right idea, if there are no children.

If she is unwilling or unable to join you in a program to create romantic love, to eliminate LBs and meet ENs, then you just may be better off without her.

I think a professional 3rd party is the best solution. The question is, will she go for it?

Okay, so ... how do I not take it, but not commit a wrong by my refusal?


That would be why I'm here, looking for suggestions.


Well aware of that, which is why I am here looking for suggestions for me and not for her.


Does a decision to do no harm to her have to entail me sitting around being abused?


That's a very hard reassurance to provide in response to a message of "We are never going to work through this and I am not going to talk to you any more."

There is nobody to reassure me that we will eventually work through things.


What, exactly, would you say I need to change in my thinking? I'm here to have such things exposed to me.

That's definately a possibility..... In my experience of "doing no harm", I've never had it fail but that's not to say that circumstances couldn't dictate a different outcome. I talk with people on a daily basis who refuse to see counselors and not because it makes them have "ownership" of their behaviours but because they and only they know the skeletons in the closet, and while it ain't healthy there, it's predictable and comfortable.

Definately a tricky situation Markos..... I feel for ya Bro and don't think I'm coming down on you or rough housing you, just trying to get the full picture and remind you that you can only change and control you. Putting your foot down, without love busters (is that possible), will likely have an equal reaction. Setting healthy boundaries may be a better choice.

Oh and Enlightened, I have like 45 more posts than you so I'm probably right.....lol.....

Feel free to shoot completely straight with me. If you think I'm doing something wrong, tell me.

(If I disagree, I'll tell you right back. Hopefully in this way, truth will be discovered.)


Those sound like different terms for exactly the same thing.


I'm perplexed at all the suggestions for divorce and leaving my wife. Not gonna happen. Not appropriate. I would rather not hear any more of them, please.

Putting together the different responses here, I get a picture that includes telling me I'm wrong to ignore my wife for an evening in response to an unwillingness on her part to talk to me, but might be right in leaving my wife. I absolutely don't get that, and it seems backward for me.

Anyway, giving up is not an option here. She HAS changed, and I think she would change more if I could bring her face to face again with the fact that she is part of the problem, here.

"""That's a very hard reassurance to provide in response to a message of "We are never going to work through this and I am not going to talk to you any more.""""

I've provided that reassurance to "You need to get the (*&) out of her and I never want to see you again you mother(&(_)#." Being that I had found this site and practiced these priciples before I even met my wife and I had life experience I knew/know that things said in anger are pretty much meaningless. The only thing they hurt is your pride. So at that point of conflict you can REACT out of anger or ACT in love. I choose love. My wife and I went through a rough patch and I steered her here and she was totally against this place and these principles and these rules and this and that. But then when we went through our rough patch she saw the principles in action. She fought the one sided fights. She struggled, I didn't. She was angry, I wasn't. All she saw was love and respect. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't a doormat. I will not ever be abused. I have good boundaries in place, I communicate them, and follow through..... Anywho, by the time we got through the rough patch, my wife bought His Needs/Her Needs and asked if I would read it with her.......

Anywho, I got to bail for the day.... Y'all have a good one....

Sounds a lot like not owning it. They know about the skeletons, but are unwilling to do anything about it, continuing to hurt others rather than to get healthy themselves.

Knowledge and ownership are two different things.

The cable guy years ago taught me the most valuable marital phrase, "You may be right."

It doesn't say that anyone is wrong, it just tells the other person they may be right.

So, you may be right

Couple of questions I was still hoping to get the answers to, if anyone can help me:

""""Anyway, giving up is not an option here. She HAS changed, and I think she would change more if I could bring her face to face again with the fact that she is part of the problem, here."""

OK, I seriously have to leave and will pick up tomorrow but this is eggsackly what I'm saying HOWEVER you have to be entrenched as PART OF THE SOLUTION before you bring her face to face with that. Pointing out she's part of the problem while you're part of the problem will have little results.....

You may be partly right. But I also think she doesn't view a counselor as a safe environment.

Imagine how you would feel if you felt there was no possible safe environment to communicate with your beloved about problems, and you will have an idea of the despair snuggled deep in the heart of my wife. Right or wrong, I'm pretty sure that's how she thinks. Every little thing that goes wrong confirms her sneaking suspicions that it really wasn't safe after all. And there's no way for me to predict every thing that can go wrong, especially if I'm going to dare to tell her when she hurts me, because it might be wrong for me to do that.

Markos, I think she did you a big favor by telling you she feels abandoned. Regardless of what you want from her, she gave you the reason why you aren't going to get it. To her, your leaving was a huge LB. I don't see how she is going to hearing anything that you say or do until that is addressed. What are you going to do to make her feel safe with you again?

As many have said, right and wrong doesn't mean much of anything in this context...it doesn't motivate anyone to love you.

Also, I think not discussing things immediately may be a good idea for you guys right now. I know that you know about DJs and such, but practicing them in the heat of the moment is another matter altogether. Maybe next time she states she doesn't want to talk about it, ask if you can talk about it at a later time when things are more settled down. That can give you a chance to figure out what you want to say without DJs, and show some respect for her wishes to drop it. As well, you'll likely both be able to listen to each other at that point in the future. In the heat of the moment, we often are overly focused on being heard.

I do this with my ex all the time. If I sense that she is getting upset with me, I quickly end the phone call and ask that we discuss this another time. Almost like clockwork, she'll call back in a minute or two, but I won't pick up. No matter how many times she calls...until I'm ready. So far, we've been able to come to an understanding of the others POV and how they feel, and show respect for it. If only I'd practice this while we were still married.

Working on making her feel safe with you should be your top priority. Make her feel safe and she'll want to do the same for you.

Electric fence:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5066_qa.html

On the other Q, I don't really have an answer about forgetting about counseling because of POJA. I'll just share how I got my H going after hearing oh heck no a bunch of times.

I started with our church. It has enrichment encounters that he refused to attend. And small groups designed to build marriages that he refused to attend. Then they came up with a big social group, and he agreed to attend, sure that he would come away from it being big buddies with a bunch of new guys and they'd all get together for poker parties and football games...and he ended up loving the way it was run, and now we're in a small group. Yeah! We talk about concepts on building strong marriages. H has new role models instead of relying on the behavior of single guys at his work! Yeah!

Then, I told him I was calling Steve Harley. He could participate or not participate, but I needed to do this. And he participated.

So it was kind of like walking him slowly across a field. "We're only going to that tree." Once there, "Hey, how about if we walk over to that rock there?" A few slow steps at a time, and before you knew it, we were all the way across the field.

Markos, where'd ya go, what'd do, last night when you went out? Did you tell her where you went, or leave her a note? Let her know when you'd be back? That one piece completely changes my perspective of your situation. You say she should apologize for one badly worded sentence in an email, and then you go out all evening. Because "what should I do, stay home and let her abuse me all night?" Instead of just going to another room when you weren't getting the answer you wanted. Hmmmm.

But, no problem, Markos, today's a new day! You're in the right place, you can do this!

Markos,

I have been where your wife is, so maybe I can shed some light. I am by no means a professional, but I feel the need to point something out.

Some topics get people on the defensive from the start. And our tone and body language can have an effect on that too. When my husband and I could not talk face to face about something without yelling at each other and hurting each other, we would write to each other (but NOT through email or texting as that is not private). There are 3 reasons writing is a positive way to communicate.
1) No negative tone of voice or body language to misinterpret.
2) You can take the time to word things very carefully so as to avoid hurtful phrases and LBs!
3) No interruptions/walking away. She can take all the time she needs to read and respond and you can do the same.

As an example, our letter would start with something positive, go over the problem, and end with some possible solutions, such as:
"my dearest love, I love you with all my heart and care very deeply for you. I feel our mutual love and respect for each other most when we [snuggle together on the couch watching NCIS]. (you would describe your favorite quality time activity here) Today when we argued about [insert topic] I felt [sad and confused]. [describe what happened] I know you must have felt [angry, upset, confused, defensive, etc] and I apologize with all my heart. I don't want for either of us to feel this way. I hope we can come to a compromise that will benefit us both. Here are a couple of ideas I had for you to consider. Please write back and share your thoughts with me.
I love you. eternally yours, me."

For some this is a good way to communicate when in-person seems to always end badly. Especially if one or the other refuses 3rd party help. This was especially helpful to me in particular when dealing with my SF issue. I felt uncomfortable talking about it with my husband, like it was a dirty subject or something. But through writing, I was able to express to my husband what I felt was lacking and share some fantasies with him. And it did help a whole lot.

Some will say writing is bad because it lacks emotion, but sometimes it is better that way. I hope this helps.

~Joyful Journey~