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Well here goes. For those of you who have had the misfortune of being in love with a spouse who has a Personality Disorder this thread may help you make some sense out of the craziness you experienced.

Unlike the traditional WW spouse who may act like they have Borderline Personality traits once they were in the affair, the Borderline Personality had the traits prior to the affair, and the affair is part of the risky sexual behavior many BP's engage in.

For those who have endured the craziness/ crisis creation, this may be an opportunity for you to gain some understanding, share your experiences and hopefully begin to heal.

In part I want to recognize Zelmo for his persistence in illuminating the specter of Borderline Personality Disorder(BPD). I believe he was accurate when he stated MB as with an alcoholic will not work. If you are dealing with a person who is an Undiagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder you are not dealing with "normal". And the BPD has to be dealt with prior in order for the MB principles to work.

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Does my spouse have Borderline Personality Disorder?
You will soon find out, however, that this is a complex question. There are no simple behavioral checklists; no definitive tests. Identifying Borderline Personality Disorder requires having a working knowledge of the disorder and some insight into the past life of the person in question.

Borderline Personality Disorder is a disorder of the emotions. Imagine a person who is extremely sensitive to rejection (fearful of even perceived or anticipated rejection) and has a limited ability to modulate their emotional impulses (love, fear, anger, grief, etc.). To protect themselves from their own feelings, they are prone to adopt a multitude of dysfunctional rationalizations and cover-ups.

For example, a person suffering from BPD may so fear rejection in a new relatinship that they recreate themselves in the image of a person they believe would be lovable. When the negative emotions for making such a sacrifice surface - and not having the ability to modulate them, they lash out at the target of their affections for "making them do it" - rather than face their own feelings of inadequancy / fear of rejection, ultimately damaging the relationship they so fear losing, and reinforcing their feelings of inadequancy / fear of rejection.

What is going on in a Borderline Personality Disorder sufferer's mind and how they are acting can be two entirely different things.

To the sufferer, BPD is about deep feelings, feelings often too difficult to express, feelings that are something along the lines of this (2):
If others really get to know me, they will find me rejectable and will not be able to love me; and they will leave me;

I need to have complete control of my feelings otherwise things go completely wrong;

I have to adapt my needs to other people's wishes, otherwise they will leave me or attack me;

I am an evil person and I need to be punished for it;

Other people are evil and abuse you;

If someone fails to keep a promise, that person can no longer be trusted;

If I trust someone, I run a great risk of getting hurt or disappointed;

If you comply with someone's request, you run the risk of losing yourself;

If you refuse someone's request, you run the risk of losing that person;

I will always be alone;

I can't manage by myself, I need someone I can fall back on;

There is no one who really cares about me, who will be available to help me, and whom I can fall back on;

I don't really know what I want;

I will never get what I want;

I'm powerless and vulnerable and I can't protect myself;.

I have no control of myself;

I can't discipline myself;

My feelings and opinions are unfounded;

Other people are not willing or helpful.

To the family members, BPD behavior is often very frustrating can feel unfair and punitive - something like this (3):

You have been viewed as overly good and then overly bad;

You have been the focus of unprovoked anger or hurtful actions, alternating with periods when the family member acts perfectly normal and very loving;

Things that you have said or done have been twisted and used against you;

You are accused of things you never did or said?

You often find yourself defending and justifying your intentions;

You find yourself concealing what you think or feel because you are not heard;

You feel manipulated, controlled, and sometimes lied to.

As such, the most obvious "symptom" of Borderline Personality Disorder is a lifelong pattern of instability in interpersonal relationships, self-image and emotions.

Why is Borderline Personality Disorder Difficult to Diagnose

Borderline Personality Disorder is a relatively recent addition to the American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) and the World Health Organization International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD). Accordingly, the majority of practicing mental health professionals graduating prior to 2000 have not been trained on the diagnosis and the treatment of this complex disorder as part of their professional curriculum.

Additionally, the clinical definition of Borderline Personality Disorder is very broad. It is defined in terms of nine criteria of which 5 or more are indicative of the disorder. This translates to 256 clusters of criteria, or constellations as they are known, any one of which is diagnostic for BPD. Within these constellations, there are high functioning borderlines that operate well in society and whose disorder is not very obvious to new acquaintances or the casual observer. Also within these constellations are the low functioning borderlines who are more apparent as they can't hold jobs, or they self-harm (cutting). Suicidal attempts/ideation and anorexia/bulimia are some of the most serious aspects of this disorder - yet, many with the disorder do not exhibit either.

Proper diagnosis and treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder is spotty at best with community healthcare providers, marriage counselors, and family therapists who are often hesitant to diagnose or treat the disorder. As a result, most borderlines are undiagnosed or in treatment for other maladies such as depression or PTSD. If you suspect Borderline Personality Disorder, it is best to use a specialist, preferably one associated with a University.

Diagnostic Tests - Diagnostic Interview for Borderline Patients (DIB-R)

The Diagnostic Interview for Borderline Patients (DIB-R) is the best-known "test" for diagnosing BPD. The DIB is a semi structured clinical interview that takes about 50-90 minutes to administer. The test, developed to be administered by skilled clinicians, consist of 132 questions and observation using 329 summary statements. The test looks at areas of functioning associated with borderline personality disorder. The four areas of functioning include Affect (chronic/major depression, helplessness, hopelessness, worthlessness, guilt, anger, anxiety, loneliness, boredom, emptiness), Cognition (odd thinking, unusual perceptions, nondelusional paranoia, quasipsychosis), Impulse action patterns (substance abuse/dependence, sexual deviance, manipulative suicide gestures, other impulsive behaviors), and Interpersonal relationships (intolerance of aloneness, abandonment, engulfment, annihilation fears, counterdependency, stormy relationships, manipulativeness, dependency, devaluation, masochism/sadism, demandingness, entitlement). The test is available at no charge by contacting John Gunderson M.D. McLean Hospital in Belmont Massachusetts (617-855-2293).


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The 'craziness/crisis creation' part you mentioned caught my eye. My wife has always said I put her in this messed up state of mind back when she did her A's. I know I was not perfect but I never understood why she always reacted in anger and got so upset over my behavior back then.

After the A's came out, and talking to my moms and one sister that now know of the A's, they too could never understand why my wife was so upset back then. She would call them, or talk to them, can complain of her marriage. They didn't live with us, but they knew me, and what I was doing, and could not figure out what she was always so angry.

I've talked about my behavior back then, and it was not perfect, but it was not anywhere near as bad as my wife made it out to be. I always thought she created a lot of it herself.

Reading your post I see she very well may have.


Me: BH, 49 yrs old
Her: FWW 44 yrs old
A's occurred in 1988
Dday #1 (2 A's) Aug. 26, 2009
Dday #2 (3 A's) Sep. 5, 2009

My story: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...744#Post2279744

Not sure where we are going...?


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Thanks, BCboy. As Zelmo knows (as does anyone else who's read my thread) I had my eyes opened. What I had failed to do was to connect her past with her present. When I put the two together (again, with the help of Zelmo, SDIC_man and a few others) the picture I saw revealed was not a pretty one.

I have since amassed a fairly good understanding of BPD, NPD and the other Cluster B disorders (incidentally, BPD might be renamed to "Emotional Dysregulation Disorder" in the upcoming DSM-V).

May I have the source of your article to add to my repository?


Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
St. Francis of Assissi
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IMO, BPD isn't a medical or mental disorder...it's a social one. It shouldn't even be in the DSM (and many professionals have tried to take it out).

It's simple immaturity...that one CAN grow out of. Most do...eventually (unfortunately, as the author points out below this often happens AFTER they have destroyed many lives including their own in the process of doing so).

Borderline Personality Article

Mr. Wondering


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

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One of the key differences between personality disorders and medical mental disoders is that personality disorders usually respond only to very directed behavioral type therapy. Some PD sufferers are prescribed medication, but medication does not usually express the root problem, as opposed to things like bipolar disorder (which I have), that is a brain-chemistry based illness.

Living with a person who has any type of illness is very taxing and challenging. I can understand why sometimes it might just be too much to bear. That is one reason that it is imperative that the person who is ill takes responsibility for continuing treatment.

I do sometimes wonder, however, about this society's disorder obessesion. I heard that now they are considering a bipolar disoder type V, where you have had a two week period of depression and a two week period of hypomania sometime during your lifetime. Would just about everybody fit that?? The latest fad in schools is this "oppositional defiant disorder" in which students won't do what the teacher says. In my day that was called being a brat, and you got a spanking! smile

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I think I have this. What should I do?

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Originally Posted by lurioosi2
One of the key differences between personality disorders and medical mental disoders is that personality disorders usually respond only to very directed behavioral type therapy. Some PD sufferers are prescribed medication, but medication does not usually express the root problem, as opposed to things like bipolar disorder (which I have), that is a brain-chemistry based illness.

Living with a person who has any type of illness is very taxing and challenging. I can understand why sometimes it might just be too much to bear. That is one reason that it is imperative that the person who is ill takes responsibility for continuing treatment.

I do sometimes wonder, however, about this society's disorder obessesion. I heard that now they are considering a bipolar disoder type V, where you have had a two week period of depression and a two week period of hypomania sometime during your lifetime. Would just about everybody fit that?? The latest fad in schools is this "oppositional defiant disorder" in which students won't do what the teacher says. In my day that was called being a brat, and you got a spanking! smile

I don't know. I have a son with severe ADHD and ODD, and trust me, there is a huge difference between a child who has these disorders and a child who is simply being a brat. I also have 3 other "normal" teenagers (if there is such a thing) so I have something to compare it to. These are real disorders with real symptoms that require medication to treat.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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Quote
IMO, BPD isn't a medical or mental disorder...it's a social one. It shouldn't even be in the DSM (and many professionals have tried to take it out).

It's simple immaturity...that one CAN grow out of. Most do...eventually (unfortunately, as the author points out below this often happens AFTER they have destroyed many lives including their own in the process of doing so).
I tend to agree with this assessment.

I also just read that article, and it fits my husband to a T. And I have to tell you, it has made recovery pretty unbearable because my H hasn't really taken full responsibility for his actions. He will claim that he has, but his actions say differently.

Although I've been learning about this personality type over the last year, I sure wished that I would have had this information right after d-day, the article Mr. W. provided in particular. It explains a LOT.

At many points I was emotionally and physically exhausted, due to my H's behavior, and his uncanny knack of deflecting the blame, and deflecting the conversations to stay away from the root problems. The conversations we had/have still revert to blaming me somehow for everything. I've been able to see it for awhile now, but it's still frustrating. For protection from the craziness, all I could do was just detach, and that's not a satisfying way to live life with your spouse.

Thank you for sharing the article Mr. W., it sums it up nicely. And thanks to BCBoy for starting the thread.

Talk about crazy making....I've been to he11 and back, repeatedly.


Last edited by mopey; 02/08/10 11:51 AM. Reason: punctuation, fix the quote

Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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I think I have this. What should I do?


Tabby....are you being funny, or are you serious? Because I have a comment for both. smile


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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I think the best stuff I read on this was by Richard Skerrit, in his book, "Meaning from Madness".
Regardless of whether it is a bonafide disorder or contained in DSM, the behaviors exhibited and imposed on the partner of a person with this type of problem are very damaging. One is confused all the time, wondering what on earth he or she did this time that caused the fury/rage/silent treatment.
I read "Stop Walking on Eggshells", by Randi Krueger, as well. It had some good info, but I could not employ the techniques suggested to allow one to remain in the relationship. I found out about the cheating and it was over. She painted me blck as I was now onto her.
I'd never heard of these disorders before talking to my divorce lawyer and therapist. I described the water dousings, the emasculating remarks, the long term silent treatments, the check bouncing and spending on clothes, in addition to the promiscuity. Both, independently suggested I look into BPD or NPD or a combo platter.
Run , if you are with someone like this, regardless of whether there has been cheating (that you know of) yet.

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Originally Posted by mopey
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I think I have this. What should I do?


Tabby....are you being funny, or are you serious? Because I have a comment for both. smile
Sadly, both. I most certainly feel many of the "symptoms" described (e.g fear of rejection, occassional uncontrolable anger, grief and other emotions). At the same time, I have trouble linking these things up as a disorder. Many of my behaviors and reactions are learned. Others I'm just not great at controlling. My dad was the same way - I don't believe he had any kind of personality disorder. He just had personality!

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Originally Posted by BCboy
Why is Borderline Personality Disorder Difficult to Diagnose

Because almost every human being has felt one or more of these things at some point in their life:

Quote
I need to have complete control of my feelings otherwise things go completely wrong;

I have to adapt my needs to other people's wishes, otherwise they will leave me or attack me;

I am an evil person and I need to be punished for it;

Other people are evil and abuse you;

If someone fails to keep a promise, that person can no longer be trusted;

If I trust someone, I run a great risk of getting hurt or disappointed;

If you comply with someone's request, you run the risk of losing yourself;

If you refuse someone's request, you run the risk of losing that person;

I will always be alone;

I can't manage by myself, I need someone I can fall back on;

There is no one who really cares about me, who will be available to help me, and whom I can fall back on;

I don't really know what I want;

I will never get what I want;

I'm powerless and vulnerable and I can't protect myself;.

I have no control of myself;

I can't discipline myself;

My feelings and opinions are unfounded;

Other people are not willing or helpful.





BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Why is Borderline Personality Disorder Difficult to Diagnose


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By B.R.....Because almost every human being has felt one or more of these things at some point in their life:


Quote from the article Mr. W. provided........

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Everyone, BPD or not, carries some degree of psychological/emotional immaturity into adulthood. The typical gap between the intellectual and emotional psyche is usually small enough that interpersonal conflicts are infrequent and minor; so, the average person can handle these with few serious life side consequences. The maturity gap between the psychological/emotional and the intellect of a BPD person is very wide and pronounced which causes frequent, major interpersonal conflicts. Since emotional responses are reactionary, all you need is an confrontation between a BPD and someone else or a circumstantial problem, add an extra emotional stressing stimulus, and then look out. Depending on the degree of the stressor, you will see the child-like response from the BPD corresponding to the kind and degree described above.


*Emphasis are mine.

You really have to live with it to see it, and feel the repurcussions of it. That is what is so frustrating to the partner's of those with this disorder. It's hard to explain it to anyone who hasn't lived with it. My kids have and they see what I see, and have felt what I have felt.

It is maddening to say the least.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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I agree, most folks have dealt with these feelings at some point. It does make it difficult to diagnose.
Also, most with PD's do not seek help. If they are seen, they are good at masking.
Most of the time, it seems, the mask comes off behind closed doors, not in public.

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Further, who marries a person with the emotional maturity of a teenager?

They must be pretty "emotionally" immature themselves to be attracted to such.

Maybe these BPD types attract intellectually responsible and upright persons that are attracted to the youthful exuberance displayed by the emotional infantile partner. However, I think it's more likely they themselves are emotionally immature as well and this mutual lack of maturity is comforting and/or safer feeling than exposing themselves to a real adult emotional relationship. Whereas, others were just conned by a intellectually mature person who happened to hide their emotional immaturity pretty well. Not typically a lot of stressors in your mid-twenties when dating which these hidden traits will present themselves openly. (which is why people should date for years prior to marriage).

Mr. Wondering


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Tabby....like the article's paragraph that I referenced above, most of us have some of these traits. It's just that some people have these traits and they are maginified under the right circumstances, CONSTANTLY.

I think a possibly good way to determine a BPD is to see how well they take repsonsiblity for their actions. Or how humble they are if they do something that hurts someone. A BPD isn't likely to handle resposibility, or be humble, in a mature way. They are likely to never exhibit these traits, or barely exhibit them.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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That is a good point, Mr W. One does have to look within to figure out what drew you to such a person. But, you do have to factor in the masking. Typically, a lot of these behaviors are not revealed until after enmeshment.
So, ong term dating is a good idea.
Also, folks that were brought up in a chaotic home are more susceptible to forming a rleationship with a BPD or NPD. I think it is because they do not understand normal and often have low self esteem or a low sense of entitlement.
People are complicated> I am not sure immaturity is the corect word for what makes one susceptible. Many of the folks I have met that are in these relationships re empathetic, socially responsible, and high acheievers. I think they do have some things in common. But, I would not classify them as immature.

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I did want to add:

The "gap" that is talked about in the article I posted also gets bigger for the emotionally stunted person as they age.

If you are say 24 and dating a 21 year old woman whom is emotionally stunted. How would you know? You are only 24 yourself and still emotionally developing yourself. She's acting in the range of 17 to 20 year old which really isn't a big deal YET...there's no way to KNOW that she'll be having trouble growing up as you do.

However, she's stunted. At age 30, 35, 40, 50 she's still emotionally behaving like a 17-20 year old.

Thus, first marriages...this "diagnosis" can sneak up on you and certainly only become apparent as YOU mature and your spouse doesn't.

Second marriages...not so much. Why would a say, 35 year old divorced woman or man date and marry another 35 year old person that had the emotional maturity of a teenage???

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Cloud and Townsends book on "Boundaries" talks at length about the importance of individualization at certain crucial ages of developement. I think the typical person that has BPD traits had trouble in the last stage at ages 16-20 or so. They are quite normal and functioning in most aspects which is why they don't fit into other mental disorders. Nothing is wrong with their brains and it's not chemical. It's just a failure to grow up.


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

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mopey, my H could be considered among the personality disordered...maybe he is but I still see that he was largely emotionally immature. The fallout of Dday, straighten him out a lot. Giant doses of reality can be very sobering.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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One is confused all the time, wondering what on earth he or she did this time that caused the fury/rage/silent treatment.


Quote
She painted me blck as I was now onto her.


Quote
I described the water dousings, the emasculating remarks, the long term silent treatments, the check bouncing and spending on clothes, in addition to the promiscuity.


I had the verbal abuse, the long term silent treatments, the witholding of just about anything I needed for years, emotional or tangible objects, the spending on what he wanted, not on what I wanted, or even needed, in additon to a lot of promiscuity. All the while, deflecting that this was happening.

When I would get close to getting a question answered that would point blank point out these things, deflection would happen. If I ask point blank questions to him in an e-mail, he won't answer them, or deflect. It is extremely frustrating. It will drive you insane usually before you understand what is happening.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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