You should ask Pep to borrow her cape and tights...she isn't wearing them today.

Yeah, I don't think the newly betrayed are as easily influenced as Skald seems to think they are. It is critical to look at pre_A behavior, and I do think that BSs can do this.
From what I have read, this infidelity business is widespread among the disordered. So, it makes sense tome to ask folks to look into it as a possible explanation.

Skald's objjection sort of reminds me of a recent remark from MEl. I had remarked on how I'd read that most affairs remain undiscovered. I relayed this information in a post and one recently minted WS read it.
Mel seemed to think that by simply disclosing this study about lack of discovery, I was ,in some way advocateing this young woman continue her subterfuge.
The PD stuff is good info for a BS to consider, IMO.

I feel sad that people think they have to stay married to users, the mentally emotionally disordered, extremely cold and selfish, and abusive spouses.

Maybe the main trouble is that the people who marry these idiots do not CHOOSE CAREFULLY who they become close to. They are emotionally blind to the partner's flaws, maybe too trusting, or too in love to see the whole picture. If they are in luck they do not start a family with these people....and bring children into the disorder.

A disordered spouse disrupts a household and damages everyone else that the disordered is around. There is no healing there or working with the situation. The disordered WARPS everyone around them. Causing permanent damage. I have seen it with my own sisters marriage, her 54 year old husband is now so beaten down he cannot look anyone in the face. In addition, he takes her abuse even in public or when people are visiting.

Some spouses are too disordered to ever be married in any kind of healthy happy way. But because of thier looks or something, people keep marrying them and suffering.

But, like Wonderin, people can WAKE UP TO THE TRUTH of thier disordered spouse. In time to end the damage and have a good life for themselves.

Is she running around nekked??

That is a triggering statement for me for sure!

When my husband and I separated a few months after the polygraph, due to my being angry over the lack of empathy, and bleeding to death from the thousand cuts, he spent the next 10 months in "individual" counseling, LICKING HIS WOUNDS, and told me "that he was on an exciting journey". Finding himself no doubt.

Yep.

I tend to agree if they have the same complaints that I have, or you have had, and even the ones that Wonderin has had.



Agreed.

Just because PD stuff is mentioned, or even diagnosed, in no way shape, form, or fashion excuse bad behavior. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say that it does. Just because you may understand where the immaturity comes from, doesn't mean you have to accept it.

I think she is seated. If she is running too....

She better be careful standing up - that really hurts when your legs get stuck to the chair.

Good hygiene may help this problem.

That was not a visual I needed so soon after lunch.

To continue on Larry's list: And you can be a man and suck down a fair amount of brew, and do bongshots.

Wonderin

You said this a few weeks ago:



So my question is...

Are you looking for validation or support for your recovery?

In this thread alone, you have taken yourself down a dark path of trying to figure out blame, guilt and fault.

Others came along to commiserate and you seemed to acknowledge them. I remind you...the root word of "commiserate" is "misery".

You said things like "you needed your husband to acknowledge this and that that he did in the past as hurtful"...

NO YOU DON'T.

It would be nice if he did...but you don't NEED IT. Furthermore, it is MOST LIKELY TO HAPPEN if and when HE falls romantically in love with you again....which won't likely happen until you also fall in romantic love with him.

This is all a twisted mind game of security versus insecurity. Being confident in who you are and loving yourself to the extent that it's possible for others (your FWH) to love you. You shouldn't need his "acknowledgement" because YOU KNOW what he did and said was mean, cruel and abusive and in no way really said ANYTHING about YOU. Such meanness, cruelity, abusiveness and betrayal is and was always about HIM. He WILL love you again because you are lovable. You are lovable because YOU ARE an attractive, confident, loving, warm, tender, etc. woman. If you aren't at this position yet...you work on building yourself up TO that position of confidence (your side of recovery).

Think back to when you dated and he fell in love with you the first time. Did you scrutinize his behavior and actions or did you behave confidently and self-assured?

The two year after d-day mark is a milestone AND a fork in the road. The TRAUMA is over. Some new habits have formed and you haven't thrown him out (and he hasn't left). Now is the time some/many BS's feel it's put up or shove off time whereas WS's get complacent and HOPE "dealing" with "it" is mostly over. What the WS needs to understand is that the trauma you endured AND overcame MUST BECOME WORTH IT.

However, for now...I'm unsure what you want. Validation or support. I see you stepping backward to near d-day comments and posts about your husband's behavior long ago. You've even acknowledged them when just a few weeks ago you were saying something completely different about your FWH's behavior. IMO, this is exactly where the inappropriate dwelling on fault and blame will take you....backwards. This could help you if you are still punishing your FWH or simply maintaining walls to keep him out emotionally.

So I guess I need to know which direction are you headed?

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- You took 7 months off from here and your first post back was what I posted above... It was more "positive" than anything you've written since. Perhaps some of these posters above are the ones that attract you and take you backwards. If recovery is what you want...seek out those that have recovered and forget about all this validation seeking. The ONLY relevance your husband's affair from two years ago has today is that YOU WILL NO LONGER TOLERATE A LOVELESS MARRIAGE because of it. It has to be great...doesn't it?

p.p.s. - Is he aware of these forums and willing to post?

How bout asking rather than speculating?

Yes, and I've already outlined what my H and I have determined to be my contribution to the sate of the pre-A marriage. I'm not here looking for a way to avoid responsibility. I know full well that I am not innocent. I'll never be perfect, and I'll be working on becomming a better person for the rest of my life, because this side of glory, it ain't gonna happen.

You don't seem to understand my point. I only wanted to know if other people felt that SAA gives WSs an out, because IMO, it allows my H to shift responsibility to me. It allows him to continue to say that my failure to morph into an altogether new woman who had a body type that I have never had was the reason he was vulnerable to an A. I take issue with that. I take issue with the fact that on our wedding day, he said I met all of his AS needs and 2 years later, with no changes at all, I didn't.

Now I've already listed the poor choices I made in response to this request. I was not innocent there. I LBed to the hilt. But if he can look back on our situation and honestly say that any part of the way he treated me was ok, that my physical shortcommings left him vulnerable to the A, then he is not a man I want to be married to. It may seem rediculous to you, but going forward with a man who could do as much damage as he did and say that it was justified, is not ok with me. That's all. I simply take issue with the idea of each partner sharing 50%, as I don't believe that is always the case.

In addition, I do have a brain. You seem to think that because someone has posted something to me, I will treat that as license to continue in bad behavior. I think it is helpful to hear the insight other people have obtained while on their own journey. I have the capacity to read about THEIR experience and determine whether or not it fits for me. I also have a wonderful support group and a counselor who tell me the truth about my perceptions and set me straight if I'm chasing rabits. I'm not stupid. I don't feel that anyone here has said: this is the case for you. Believe it. Don't look into it. Do this. People are simply offering information that has helped them, so that I might find a new bit of truth. I appreciate that. It is helpful to me.


You don't know a lot about my sit, and I don't appreciate the fact that you seem to imply that I am not looking to improve our M. Heck, I'm still trying to save it, even though my feelings are flat. I have done a lot to improve myself whether our M makes it or not, and I'm not about to quit now. Coming here looking for someone who might have a similar circumstance, who might know something I don't, who might be able to point me in a new direction does not mean that I am not willing to work on myself.

[quote]"Do I really want to recover this marriage and return to a life that will likely result in my health problems (a reported side-effect of being in a relationship with a disordered person), uncertainty, distrust and emotional abuse?"
quote]

I completely relate to your post. This is the question I'm weighing in my mind. If he still thinks like the thought before the A...even if he meets ENs and avoids LBs as best he can...will it be a marriage I want to be a part of? I'm not sure it is.

Validation or support? How about both. After all this is the "Surviving an Affair" section. One might survive best by getting out. Once there is cheating, that is a valid option, IMO.

Mr. Wondering, Thanks for your post. I appreciate your observations, and you have indeed made me think. I usually take a while to process and really come to any solid conclusion, and I just read your post, but I will write based on my first instincts.


OK, you are right, I do not literally need him to acknowledge those things. It is in my desire to continue sharing my life with a man who thinks like he thinks that things get hairy. I know so much more now than I did pre A. And I look back on my sit with total disgust. And I don't just mean him, I mean ME! Why was I such a doormat? I do not want to be that woman anymore. And if I stay with him even though he continues in the same line of thought, I feel like I'm still the doormat that I was for years. I have waited 2 years for him to "get" some things. And I'm beginning to feel quite hopeless that he ever will. So, it leaves me wondering if I am OK staying in a marriage where my H may very well continue in the same attitudes and thought patterns evident through our married life thus far.


I agree with this. But again, if he never looks into what all of that said about *him* do I want to stay? BTW, my H does claim to be "in love" with me. He says that it is so ironic that he was "miserable" in our marriage and now that he isn't, I am. You have referenced my prior post, and I stand by it. He has done a great job of working on meeting ENs, avoiding LBs, and coming to mutually enthusiastic decisions...and I am still unhappy. I'm just not into him. At. All.


This was before the emotional beating, but yes I did. And though I've struggled with self esteem since this began, I really feel more confident today than I was even when we were dating. I like myself so much more. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I look back and think my H was just plain crazy, because I was and am a catch. He just couldn't/wouldn't see any of the good in me. And I believe that is because he wanted me to live up to fantasy.


BINGO. That really says it all. I believe that a BS must work through the trauma and do the hard work of personal recover whether or not they stay in the marriage. So I don't regret a minute of the work I've done. However what will make it "worth it" may not be staying, in my case. I guess I feel like he hasn't changed much at the core level. His behaviors have, but not the deep cellular him. And I don't know if I like that man anymore. I'm not sure staying with him IS worth it.



Well, I started this post because I was honestly curious about what other SAA believers thought about the concept of pre-A issues leading to vulnerability, which led to the A. Did anyone else consider this to be on "out" for a WS. That was all. And after reading some replies, I got off discussing my personal situation and why I believe that it does...at least in some cases. Then, some posters got me thinking about some new ideas, and it kinda evolved from there. When I talk with others who've traveled this road, I love to hear their stories, what they've learned, how they've grown. I can often glean a bit of knowledge from thier wisdom that applies to my own life. I like to know if they think I am headed the wrong directions (and so I appreciate your pointing out my backsliding), and I like to know that I'm not alone. That someone else understands or has been there.


Again, thanks for pointing this out. I don't want to go backwards. And I think you have pinpointed 2 of my "stuck" places. I am in bondage to obsessive thinking, which IS unhealthy dwelling. I keep quoting Romans 8:6 - the mind controlled by the Spirit is peace and life. For a reason I haven't determined, I am stuck dwelling on all that went wrong in our M. And you hit #2 on the head - I like the excuse to keep my emotional walls as high as I possibly can. I do not really want to let him back in. I know this, but I don't yet know what to do about it...or if it just means that we aren't gonna be married at the end of it all. It is at the top of my list of things to discuss with my counselor.


I want to move forward, Mr. W. I'm just not sure that it will be with my H.