How would a person ever detect if a person is going to cheat on them? I understand where Mr. W can draw a correlation to immaturity. I read the article and I can see how one can come to that conclusion.

I look at my own case. Met my future wife when I was 17 dated 4 years got married at 21. Did I have the maturity then? Not likely, however the expectation was you would grow together and get through life together. Then 32 years later she finally decides after painting me all black she cannot take it any longer, and needs a new life. I think this occurred shortly after her father passed away and she no longer would have to feel guilty for her actions. (Her father was Narcissistic and she felt obligated to tow the line as it would not "look good" if she were to act out and cause her father embarrassment.)

We are all imperfect people. We do our best at making our way through life. We seek and hope we found someone to love and that they will love us. As Zelmo says we cannot predict the challenges we will have to face. Some face those challenges with courage and grace, and some fall apart in the face of adversity. We allow life's circumstance to either build our character or destroy it.

So as we stand disoriented and confused from the turmoil we did not choose, the issue still remains. How do we work our way back to health? We can recognize what has happened, much of it defies logic and reason. In a peculiar way I can somehow understand what some of the war vets went through. They had to endure a horrific series of events, not of their choosing, it has changed them forever, and now what?

I think that can be the focus of this post. We can recognize the similarities of our experiences. How do we help, guide and encourage each other along the path of recovery of ourselves? What are you doing that works for your recovery? Zelmo mentioned exercise. What else are you folks doing to get healed?

Blessings
BCBoy

I think some PD folks do get therapy. But, I have read a ton that it is fairly rare.
See,these babies are not mental illnesses. They are the person's world view. The PD's involve tons of entitlement, projection,and just their warped values.
Here's an example, that mgiht make illustrate. In 1994, I kept track of my wife's nights out(I , stupidly, never suspected her of serial cheating.) I came up wit 224 nights out. We had two young boys, one severly handicapped.
Finally, doormat that i was,I broguth this to her attention, thinking that the stats would shock her into modifying her behavior.
Now, she was a summa cum laude law school grad. So, her response , as stupid as it was, was not attributable to a lack of candlepower. It was due to her view of the world, and her place in it and that of all the underlings that were out here to serve her. She said: "What is your problem with that? I ahve so many more friends than you that , of course, I am going to be out many more nights than you."
She genuinley believes that she is entitled to more than other people. She sees no problem with this behavior.
So, the stuff folks are generally treating for, IMO, are the bonafide mental illnesses, like depression, bipolar, various neurisis and OCD etc.

No contact with the PD, if possible, BC. Also, recognizing that these folks are out there and researching the tellttale signs.
And, what I was trying to say about MR W's assertion that immaturity may have played a part, is that that assertion is not unlike that where folks try to lay responsibility for the selection of the type of person that will cheat on the BS. One can make a case that in some intances, there were signs of this proclivity. How many of us married folks that were promiscuous or had cheated in past relationships. That info was out there for some of us, but we ignored it.

My FWH's OW2 was his g/f from his teens/early 20's. When she tracked him down and they started the affair he had no idea she had not matured past the age of, oh say 15? Unfortunately for all of us he did not figure out her teen DD was more mature than her until she was already pregnant with his OC. I think at the age of 5 OC has more maturity and common sense than her.

You have to wonder what causes someone to be so emotionally stunted?

And from what I understand, their upbringing has a lot to do with it.



I've actually seen this first hand with my husband play out in various situations. He admitted to feeling superior to me once, sometime after my digging into what the heck was going on. I can't remember now if it was something of his that I found that he wrote, and confronted him with it or what. And he was not claiming, I believe, that he was just superior in a specific area, he was superior in general. I actually think he MIGHT have felt some shame in that for a moment. Or maybe he was just dissapointed that he could longer claim that superiority after he was caught lying and cheating.

It's sad for me to write this stuff about him. Sometimes I believe that he genuinely wants to do better. Other times, not so sure about that. This is where the confusion comes in. Sigh.

- My own therapist.
- Joined a women's group to take me out of isolation and heal some wounds.
- Reading uplifting scripture.
- Cleaning up my character defects, ie, bad reactions.
- finishing my degree to be self sufficient if need be, or better contribute to a healthy relationship with my husband.
- Learning how to heal from a PD relationship by learning about it.
- Thanks to Pep, starting a journal with a list of 3 things to be proud of and be grateful for, everyday.

Have you read any of Shari Schreiber's stuff on BPD/NPD? It literally made my jaw drop! Of course, that's because I so saw my WW (and myself) in her descriptions. To demonstrate that it's not like that for everyone, I asked my daughter to read some of the same articles, and her reaction was, "meh, I can see how it fits..."

Her web site is not aesthetically pleasing, which makes it hard for me to read her articles straight up. For some, I've taken to copying and pasting the entire article into MS Word just to ease my eyestrain.

http://gettinbetter.com

or
http://www.sharischreiber.com/index.html

(both links take you to the same site).

I looked over that, and what a surprise that was, I have *all* the ADD symptoms listed...

And here I was possibly worried about it being something else.

No, but I had intended to after you mentioned it some pages back. Just spent most of my time here on the forums so far today. But I will. Thank you very much for giving me the links.

I remember my jaw dropping too when I read my first tidbits about the "signs of NPD and PD. Actually, I was crushed and felt hopeless, because a lot of people suggest it almost never gets better. And it only gets better if the PD is working hard at it and it can take years. I need healing like yesterday.

My daughter and my son can confirm the struggles that have been present in my relationship with my husband, and their relationship with him.

I forgot to mention Fred, last weekend I read some e-books by A.J. Mahari. Supposedly, she had BPD, spents years in therapy for it, got to a place of health, then wound up in a relationship with a BPD herself. She has views from both sides of the fence. And all I could think about was karma. She suffered from the effects from the very same thing she had dished out previously.

I'm still skeptical about some of the writings, but I keep reading because I do not doubt for a second that I am dealing with something that is not emotionally healthy for me, my husband, and our children.

One of the toughest things to keep straight in dealing with a PD is that they did not ask for this. Often, they were victimized at a young age.
So, at times I feel a lot of compassion for my Xs. But, I could not live with them. They were brutal.

Yes Zelmo. I know what you mean. Just when I think I can get to a place of compassion with my husband, he'll let me down in a big way by his choices, and then all bets are off again. It's a cycle that I hate.

So, it has pretty much left me in a pretty permanent detached state. It's safer there. I am too afraid to let the walls down. Every time I do, he'll do something to hurt me. Sometimes, I think he does it on purpose to keep me at arms length. If he keeps me at a distance, he doesn't have to show me his vulnerabilities. Without exposing vulnerabilities, on both of our sides, there is no intimacy. It is a very unsatisfying way to live.

Boooo...Zelmo DJ'ed me!

IMO...your assumptions about me are wayyyy off base.

Actually, if...IF I had divorced, your situation may have been exactly where I likely would have ended up. Blaming everything on my personality disordered ex-wife. I see it as unhealthy because I know NOW such crutch would have been a false crutch FOR ME. My wife DOES NOT have a personality disorder. Maybe your ex was legitimately nuts or not, but she's NOT HERE and I can't just take your word for it. Nor does it matter anymore. You are here so I say things to or towards you to HELP you because what your wife did or didn't do years ago is of no relevance to your recovery anymore. I think your position that you will never re-marry is unhealthy and you need help in that area. Relationships ARE the spice of life....at least, a healthy loving one CAN BE.

I'm also not the only person in the world that thinks "borderline personality disorder" is bunk.

For those that asked, I use "Immaturity" herein to refer to one "lacking normal maturity for their age". To me it's just delayed development versus arrested developement which suggests a medical condition such as a closed head brain injury or some other injury to the brain which PREVENTS maturing thereafter.

Just ask any 60-70 year old and they will clearly tell you we ALL are immature to some extent or another. It's a spectrum "affliction" and to call people on the far left of such spectrum "disordered" is a disservice, IMO, especially to those ACTUALLY medically injured. They ARE capable of growing up...they HAVE the mentally capacity. Whether they choose to or not is NOT part of the "diagnosis". It's simply waywardismish.

That being said, if I miss the boat sometimes ..sorry.


As far as this:


A human...just like you.


All three. In hindsight, my wife's betrayal is not shocking at all. It was a road she and I BOTH started traveling in Junior High, through High School and college, long before we ever met each other.

Mr. W

I let my walls down way too many times, mopey. I can still remember the first silent treatment. We were in Las Vegas with our wedding party. My fahter in law and brothers in law asked if they could treat me to a round of golf.
I consulted my wife and she was fine with it. I suggested that she might want to go to the pool , as she enjoyed that.
Well, that enraged her. She would not speak to me all night.
But, I kept thinking I was doing something that caused this tyoe of thing. And, I would go back and try again.
First water dousing, I tried to laugh off, despite almost falling in the shower and feeling like I'd been hit by an electric current.
Next one, I voiced my displeasure and asked her to please stop.
Third one, she enlisted our threeyoung daughtes to throw back the shower curtin and douse me.
Fourth one, she called me over for a hug as I was about to go play golf with her dad. Doused me fully clothed in front of the kids.
I snapped, and went to the sink and filled a glass and doused her back. Then, I was told I had no sense of humor.
You cannot win with these folks.

I agree. And I never wanted to "win". I'm sure you didn't either. I just wanted respect and care.

Again, unless you actually live with someone with PD, there's no convincing anyone else what it is like.

And I guess some people think they know better than the therapist who have seen it with their own eyes.

You did say Dj'ed,right?
Mr W, I have no idea if your WW has a personality disorder. I suspect not, as she has shown remorse and seems to have empathy.
But, the claim that these abusive waywards are simply immature is incorrect IMO. I have 5 kids. Thye are immature. Thye are not, however, abusive. They do not repeatedly torture others to hide thier fears and insecurites.
You seem to be under the impression that burying one's head from the possibility that one has a disordered spouse, in some way helps recovery. I would suggest that denying the existence of these disorders may well hamper true growth. It is not a crutch to acknowledge reality.
Yes some folks deny the existence of PDs. Some folks think the lunar landing was staged.
I think most involved with the disordered are no more immature than the next person. They simply were unfortunate enough or vulnerable enough or both to have encountered and not detected such a person.
I have a friend who is a successful attorney. He has a great work history and has been a great dad. Stellar credit, no brushes with the law, just not indications of immaturity. His wife is a cheating monster.
He is succesful and no one would call him imature. Yet, he married a serial cheater who has done crazy things.
I'm well adjusted, well liked, sucessful, good to my kids and animals. I pay my bills and taxes. I go to work every day. I support my family. Worked myself through colege and law school, attending nights. I was captain of my college golf team and started as a point guard in college.Where is the sign of immaturity that led to my attraction to my wife?
She did none of this whacko stuff during courtship.

You are right, Zelmo, "she" doesn't...FWW, if you please though - I have worked hard for that "F"...Thanks much!

Mrs. W

Zelmo...

IF you were interested in seeking a new relationship and you met someone EXACTLY like your ex-wife...

Do you think such woman could fool you again?

Do you think you just spun the wheel of relationships and hit bankruptcy TWICE?

Further...if you truly don't think you'll ever have a relationship with a woman again...I guess the answers to the above don't matter a lick. "Why?" is only relevant if one is seeking to avoid repeating such mistakes.

IMO...you life is not over. I KNOW how I got here (MB) and WE are utilizing such information to improve our marriage. What can MB do for you?

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - My point again about bringing up the personality disorders all the time is that, IMO, you are in all likelihood wrong about the WS 90% or more of the time you ask a recently devastated and vulnerable betrayed spouse to consider the concept. For THOSE 90% (even if it's only 50% of the time you are mistaken) you are wasting their time and energy on a destructive time consuming wasteful path. I've been there...I fruitlessly wasted energy on the concept myself. It's certainly a love buster for a BS to be analyzing and discussing the "illnesses" with their WS while they are trying to Plan A them. Thus, it's a complete disservice. There is no way to really tell with a fogged out wayward spouse anyway...so time WILL tell if a person is "personality challenged" or not. There is no rush to diagnosis necessary because, shockingly, most of the time...if they recover...they AREN'T "sick" and if the couple divorces, they ARE "ill". But, alas, post as you wish.

Mr. W!!!




Mrs. W

Awww. How cute!