I disagree that my wife is a Free-loader or Renter, although she does seem to exhibit some of those traits. Part of the attitude of "just being natural and doing what you feel" is a message drummed into my generation by pop culture, music, movies, TV, books, college, women's lib, etc. The rest of it is external forces of anxiety over the political economy, family illness, and deaths.

I have come to be a bit less impatient with her, because I realize how much things outside her control and my control are causing her worry. Life for her is cloudy and raining, with just a patch of sunshine. That has led to an attitude that, "This is good as it gets."

I was paying close attention to everything she said last night, and when I, or one of the children ( 2 are back home now ) said we would do this or do that chore or errand, her comment was negative.
"Well, you didn't do it last week."
"You didn't do such a great job of cleaning the kitchen today."
"Why bother."

This is not normal for her, but has become normal. But you can't point out to someone that they are letting personal tragedies sour their entire outlook on life, without sounding like you are dismissing or minimalizing the very real fact that things are bad, and they have a right to be sad. Its like the effects of post-partum depression or menopause, or being injured and on pain killers: the person has to know there is a change in their world, but they deny it is inside them.

For myself, or Hold, or OurHouse, there is a right time to get someone to make the move to listen to a Steve Harley or whoever will get them focused on something positive that they can change.

Retread, but she doesn't exhibit any signs of being a buyer. It doesn't matter WHY a person got to be a freeloader, the definition is the same. If there is water coming in the roof, do you care if it is from a monsoon or a hurricane? The leak still has to be plugged. Are you sure you are being objective about this? Because what you described, coupled with her thoughtlessness towards your feelings is the definition of a freeloader, person who only does what comes naturally and won't do anything to maintain their marriage unless the spirit moves them.

I agree there is a "right time." The right time is when the unhappy spouse WANTS something other than the status quo enough to do something about it. [other than complain endlessly]

Melody, you are right about pushing her, but as of last night, I think we are headed towards another funeral. Even weeks later, unless she is back to her cheerful self, my bringing up MB will sound like, "the unhappy spouse WANTS something". Instead, I am going to talk to one of her good friends, who is a pastor, and a female, and very good at approaching people in the right manner. Anything she says will be received more objectively.

On a side note: Mark1952's program at church got me thinking how I could get some things like that, and unemployment issues, going at our church. I just bought all the MB books for the church library. I was looking at the DVD set. If the books get checked out, I think I will donate the DVD course and free couples' ticket to MB Weekend, and let our pastors use it at their discretion. That should have to get the pastors' attention and make the take a look at MB.

Then why bring up MB at all? Instead start coaching with Steve and have him guide you in doing this. The fact that it is a problem in your marriage to bring up your unhappiness is not indicative of a buyers mentality, Retread. A spouse is supposed to tell their spouse when they are unhappy so they can make the necessary changes.

Just for the record, Retread, I called Steve on my own twice. I called him last March and again in November. His advice was the same both times (with regard to my husband): "let's talk about how we're going to get him here".

But in the meantime, there was LOTS Steve was able to accomplish with me and SO much I got out of my 2 hours (more like 3+hours...he so often goes over), that it was well worth it.

It was Steve helping me and the posters here who eventually opened my eyes to the fact that I had to make a stand. I was unhappy and like ML, I did NOT want to stay in the marriage I had. I kept that message short and simple to my husband. I even had it as my sig line for a while.

Bummer though..we had to cancel w/ him today. He was running over almost 45 min. And today our schools scheduled early release for the impending snowstorm (have not yet seen ONE snowflake...). So the kids will be home within a half hour and for our setup here at home, it's just not conducive to talking with Steve. Plus H is uncomfortable with it and it would be un-MB-like of me to push it.

ML as in making love?

How often do you want that to happen in your M?
And does your H agree to that frequency?

Do you and your H discuss what involves in the ML?
Does he lead, or do you lead as to how it goes?

ML= MelodyLane

I see both sides here rt and ml.

When one S is happy though, and thinks the other is being negative by complaining you end up in a losing situation. That is why many have to find a way to cope in their M, divorce or "When to call it quits". I do agree that complaining is necessary until it gets squashed in your face for years on end by S who doesn't see a problem.

When one spouse is satisfied (although not really happy), and the other spouse is unhappy, complaints tend to be seen as betrayal.

"I thought things were going just fine! How could you spring this on me?"

So then the unhappy spouse is suddenly responsible for upsetting the apple cart. They are the troublemaker, the malcontent. That's why, when things are not really bad (no yelling, fighting, affairs, wild spending, addiction, etc), there is a natural reluctance of one spouse to bring up the one thing that is making them unhappy. Of course, it is a powder keg, and eventually some spark will set it off. Withheld affection and sexual relations is the prime example.

My wife was reading to my son last night. We were all on the bed, and I was reading a Wilbur Smith novel. She stopped while my son was preoccupied with the dog and said real lightly, "I don't want you t leave me." I pretended I didn't hear it, and she went on reading to him.

I think she is starting to get the picture.

I have given up. I am wanting life to be over. Don't worry, I won't kill myself. Don't have the guts. But I am not trying to live, either.


If I hit the lottery, I would stay home and play video games all day. To distract myself from the pain. Or maybe finally get the ECT. If I didn't need to keep working, no reason not to take the chance of burning my brains out.


I am not interested in fixing the problems in my marriage. That would require me to do some work. To try. I would have to clean up my side of the street. I am not interested in cleaning up my side of the street. I live in bitterness and resentment and frustration and that is where I am confortable. I am not interested in becoming happy or satisfied. I am only interested in numb.

Melody, that is why I would not try a MB weekend or counselling with the Harleys. They will ask me to improve my behavior. That I refuse to do.

I am cutting off my nose to spite my face. And at this point, the behavior and neural pathways are so deeply embedded that I cannot imagine there is anything anyone, not even Mrs. Hold, could do to get me to stray from this path.

I don't FEEL anything except pain anymore. Had a nice weekend with my family. Felt nothing. Opportunities arise at work. I feel nothing except irritation. I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone. I do not get happy or excited about anything. Not even sex. There are times I sense I could get Mrs. Hold to consent if I "made a move" and I don't bother trying.

Like I said, I have given up.

My whole life is a lie. I am afraid of being me. So I hide. I wonder how much of this Mrs. Hold knows. I wonder how far she is willing to go to ignore the truth. We both live in denial. So well matched.

Hey hoti...

Long, long, time. I found your post so sad and discouraging - how do you do it? Is there ever any light in the tunnel? It's been 10 years or something hasn't it?

hang in there my friend...

Starpony

I was actually very happy to read what she said about not wanting you to leave... I didn't post how excited I was for you though, cus I knew you'd downplay it.

I triple-dog dare you to print out your post from this morning and give it to her.

That was mud, not hold.

Mrs. Hold tells me frequently that she wants to keep me around and she isn't done with me. I smile and say thank you. Because I know she means it as a compliment. That she isn't done sharing events and memories with me.

Then I leave the room and feel like puking. Because our marriage has mostly felt like torture and torment for me. She isn't done torturing and tormenting me? And she wants me to be happy about that?

It is like when someone is in the fog of an affair. And the WS rewrites history to say "I never really loved you. I was never happy in our marriage." That is how I feel. Not sure if it is accurate or a rewrite. But how to make it end? In affairs, the affair ends and the WS implements no contact and the fog lifts and they fall back in love with their spouse. But how do I end my affair? How do I get out of the fog where I keep telling myself I hate my wife and the marriage has been unhappy since our honeymoon?

How do I even know it IS a fog? I have felt this way consistently since I got here in 2002. I consistently told all our MC's I was unhappy starting in 1997. How do I know how much is fog and how much is simply consistently not getting my ENs met? I may not be trying to get my needs met now, but I was trying up until 2005 when we stopped MC. Do I have to go back to trying to get our of this fog? I can't imagine what would motivate me to do that.

Hold,

Why don't you print up this page... Page 52, with the 3-4 posts from you, and hand it to your wife.

If she hasn't gotten it before, she might get it when she reads your unfiltered words.

She needs to know how much pain you are in.

I am sad to say that I understand your feelings, sometimes more than I care to admit.

((((Hold))))))

Would you consider giving her the pages? What do you have to lose?

Because she might choose to leave me.


No, she would just withdraw. And lose respect for me. I know, DJ to think I can predict how she would react. But we spent 8 years in MC. I opened my heart to her. Told her how much I needed her. And she told me to go fly. I am not opening myself up to that kind of rejection again.

I will tell her in 5 years. I just have to be strong and endure for 5 years. Then I can tell her everything. And if she chooss to leave, good riddance! I have lived with depression for over 30 years (if not my whole life). I can make 5 more no matter how bad they are. I am strong!

Shabbat Shalom, Hold!