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So I demand tonight that she stops all contact with OM? This is day three of PLAN A for me. AKUA, you have been in Plan A for months, you just didn't call it that. If she doesn't understand by now that you are willing to meet her needs in a future relationship, she will never know. It is time to back up your talk with ACTION. Please appeasement will get you nowhere. AS YOU CAN SEE. Your wife does not believe you will do anything to stop her ...............AND SHE IS RIGHT.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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My wife says she feels like something inside her is broken. And that she feels empty and worthless and that she violated not only my trust in her, but God's love and trust. And she's really confused. She says that half of her wants me to stay and the other half isn't sure why she's hurting me the way she is...and wants me to be as far from her as possible, so I don't get hurt again. She doesn't want to leave me for the OM. I know that for certain.
She never used this language before. Before the final D-Day, she never even told me she was unhappy in the marriage.
Am I missing something here? 2 by 4 me. There are other marriages on this site where the person is still in the affair, and you tell the WS to keep on doing PLAN A. How come you want me to go straight to Plan B or divorce?
BH (Me): 34 WW: 33 M:7yrs. No kids. DDAY 1, AUG 30, 2010, ONS with ex-coworker. TT. DDAY 2, Sept 10, 2010 , Learned of 2nd PA with XBF. Also TT. DDAY 3, October 15, 2010, NC with co-worker was broken, FT. DDAY 4, FEB 9, 2010, NC was broken.
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It's not that I don't demand things. I do. In strong words. This is the first time I'm not demanding anything. I'm just taking it one day at a time. I know our marriage has been broken for a long time. There was no PLAN A last time. I just kept on reminding her of the affair and the damage she did. I wasn't there for her at all. Now I want to be.
I'm getting a little confused. I thought PLAN A was about satisfying your WS's EAs for a little while, and then telling them they need to leave if they don't stop all contact. Not demanding they leave before you could prove that you're being a good husband.
Her affairs started three years ago. That coincides with two different things in my life. One, I became addicted to pain killers because of a chronic pain issue. Two, I began to work, all the time, eighteen hour days (I'm a screenwriter in Hollywood and to succeed you just need to be really obsessive and work long hours).
Anyway, I stopped paying attention to my wife almost completely. We stopped having sex. She'd pepper me with questions like "Why don't you look at me anymore? Why don't you like to touch me?" She cried herself to sleep. She cried in the bathroom. She begged me to get off the pills. In MC, she said her ex came to her when she was the most vulnerable and knew which buttons to push. And that she didn't want to leave me, but it was like I wasn't in the marriage anymore.
So, for at least three years, I wasn't fulfilling almost any of her EAs. I'm not blaming myself for her affair, but I will blame myself if we get a divorce.
And it's for those reasons I'm still here. And because I love her. It's not a one way street. You may have work to prove you are a good husband. That's why I suggested you work on MB principles yourself. However, she has to prove she is a safe wife. Safe wives make respectful requests to have their needs met. They don't run off and have affairs if things are not going their way. Neglect is like conventional warfare. It's hurtful, but chances are better for survival than in nuclear war. Affairs are going nuclear, and greatly reduce the chances for survival for all parties involved. The biggest rock in the jar is her willingness to choose affairs over more acceptable means of getting her needs met. As long as she still has feelings, still thinks affairs are an acceptable way of getting her needs met, it really will not matter how good of a husband you are. Not only do any affairs need to end, but there needs to be a demonstrable change in her values such that she would never even consider an affair and that she has a toolkit at her disposal to protect her marriage with you. You each have work to do. It is almost (not quite) pointless for you to address your issues as long as her toolkit still includes affairs.
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So I demand tonight that she stops all contact with OM? This is day three of PLAN A for me. Tell her this is IT, or she needs to make plans to move. But you also need to expose the affair and get some support from others. I truly don't believe your wife will end her affair. She has been trained in your marriage to have affairs as a way of life and really has no reason to change.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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So I demand tonight that she stops all contact with OM? This is day three of PLAN A for me. Tell her this is IT, or she needs to make plans to move. But you also need to expose the affair and get some support from others. I truly don't believe your wife will end her affair. She has been trained in your marriage to have affairs as a way of life and really has no reason to change. Bingo, see my advice above. It's more about does she have to tools in her purse to be a safe spouse and not someone who runs off and has another affair if she feels like it. No kids, I'd require a third party expert like the MB team to tell me my wife was safe, or if I would be better off cutting her from the team.
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Melody, I hear you. But I haven't been in PLAN A for months. I've totally neglected her. Granted, she's neglected me...and betrayed me.
I'm trying to be the husband that I was before I got caught up in my own selfishness.
Anyway, please keep the advice coming. I will give the ultimatum tonight if that's what I need to do.
I'm not very religious, but I am spiritual, and a spiritual adviser said I need to keep fighting for this marriage. That my wife is the most broken right now (he said possessed by the devil)... and she needs me now more than ever. It does seem like I'm dealing with two completely different people. And one of them is totally crazy.
My parents know the truth and don't want me to stop fighting. Her parents know the truth and don't want either of us to stop fighting.
Our friends that know the truth don't want me to stop fighting.
But, I don't know how much more I can take. And, two days ago, before coming to this site and talking to my adviser, I was ready to leave... but then I was told to stay, and surround her with a bubble of love to try and bring her back home. So, I told her I was going to fight for this marriage with everything I had left in me. And she cried and hugged me.
And this all so effing confusing!!!!!!!!!
And my heart is broken.
BH (Me): 34 WW: 33 M:7yrs. No kids. DDAY 1, AUG 30, 2010, ONS with ex-coworker. TT. DDAY 2, Sept 10, 2010 , Learned of 2nd PA with XBF. Also TT. DDAY 3, October 15, 2010, NC with co-worker was broken, FT. DDAY 4, FEB 9, 2010, NC was broken.
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Melody, I hear you. But I haven't been in PLAN A for months. I've totally neglected her. Granted, she's neglected me...and betrayed me. Akua, your wife is in her 3rd affair. This has nothing to do with unmet needs. That was not the cause so it can't be the solution. Your wifes adultery has gone on a very long time and is very entrenched. Enabling her affairs has only made it worse. What we are telling you to do is start fighting for your marriage. You may have done a few ineffective things, but you have not worked smart. The things we are telling you are for the purpose of saving your marriage, if it can be saved. The most impactful things you can do is DEMAND your wife end her affair... NOW. Not in the future, not when she feels like it, not "I am working on it..." or any other fogbabble. NOW. If she wants to remain in the marriage, she needs to end the affair. If not, then then separation and divorce are the next logical steps. i would let her know it is CRUEL to live with you while banging the OM and you cannot live like that. The next most impactful thing you can do is expose the affair to every one. Her parents, her friends, his parents, his facebook friends, etc. But I would certainly call her parents and tell them about her adultery and ask them to use their influence in ending her affair.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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She's had two affairs. But that's splitting hairs. I'm calling her mom right now. And she gets the ultimatum tonight. I don't think she's banging the OM while I sit at home and wait for her. I think she's honestly confused about the marriage, being marriage, and the damage she's already done.
She just wrote an email to me that said she's so scared my IC is going to tell me that I need to leave her. She also said (repeatedly) it's not about the OM, it's whether or not she wants to stay married. But I'm sure foggy WS say that a lot.
But reading through her foggy-babble, I am seeing that she wants both me and the OM...and that needs to stop. Tonight.
If she wants me, I will stay around, but then the the work begins.
BH (Me): 34 WW: 33 M:7yrs. No kids. DDAY 1, AUG 30, 2010, ONS with ex-coworker. TT. DDAY 2, Sept 10, 2010 , Learned of 2nd PA with XBF. Also TT. DDAY 3, October 15, 2010, NC with co-worker was broken, FT. DDAY 4, FEB 9, 2010, NC was broken.
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Good job! And yes, she is confused. She is confused by her affair. Her affair has the same effect that heroin has on an heroin addict. So the first step will be to kill the affair so you CAN work on the marriage.
Hopefully, her parents will help you kill this affair. When you speak to her tonight, please tell her you have told her parents [if they haven't called her already]
I would also make plans to go visit this OM this week and make as much trouble for him as possible.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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STOP LISTENING TO HER. She is so foggy right now it isn't even funny.
Classic cake eater.
My WH said, "Our problems in our M have nothing to do with POSOW." "POSOW has nothing to do with me wanting to leave." "I am not with anyone else, I am leaving to THINK"(until I saw PROOF in his own words from a keylogger, but he still tried to deny and didn't admit to WHEN it started) "I am the worst person you have ever been with, I hurt you the most. You must HATE me." "I feel bad that I hurt you." "I just want you to be you." "Just because I leave doesn't mean it is over for us."
And a lot of other bullchit that I wanted to believe. How could I? Lies and betrayal. I wanted to be with WH and I tried to ask for NC. Now WH lives with POSOW. I am in Plan B and I don't regret it. It feels better in some ways, but it is harder in others. You'll get there. Just do it the right way.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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Scotland, I just want to say you are my idol. I'm halfway through your story. It's taken me almost half a day to read all the strings. Your strength in all this was beyond inspirational.
BH (Me): 34 WW: 33 M:7yrs. No kids. DDAY 1, AUG 30, 2010, ONS with ex-coworker. TT. DDAY 2, Sept 10, 2010 , Learned of 2nd PA with XBF. Also TT. DDAY 3, October 15, 2010, NC with co-worker was broken, FT. DDAY 4, FEB 9, 2010, NC was broken.
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WOW. INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT.
I picked my wife up from work and we started to talk about things on the drive home (holding hands). Anyway, I said that I spoke with her mom and that although she knew about the affair, she didn't know that my wife was still talking to the OM.
And then she looked very sad for a moment and said, "We're not."
And I said, "You're not what?"
And she said, "Talking. Anymore."
And I said, "Did you break it off with him?"
And she stumbled over her words for a moment and then said, "I don't want to lie. He doesn't seem to want to talk to me anymore."
I asked "Are you sad?"
And she said, "It feels like I've lost a friend."
"Why did he break it off?" I asked.
And she said, "Because he's a nice guy and your email had an affect on him I guess."
(I wrote the OM when I found out saying to please leave my wife alone and then BCC'd my wife.)
And then I said, "Or maybe it's because I told his GF you guys were still talking."
At this point, she threw my hand away from hers. Something she's never done in our whole relationship.
And she said, "You did what?!?"
And I said, "I don't regret it. And I'd do it again. You know I plan on fighting to save this marriage."
She looked sad for a moment and then took my hand again and said, "I'm so sorry for all the bad choices I've been making. You have no idea how sorry I am."
Anyway, it turns out that all this happened last week. And, although she's been disappearing a lot, at least it wasn't to him. I think she's just dealing with a lost relationship within a relationship. How tragically....strange?
And when she was thinking of leaving the relationship, it was because of the relationship and not him (so much). Unless, somebody wants to say that she thought she should leave me to get him back.... which is always a sad possibility... but I don't think is the case.
I don't know what any of this means, but I thought I'd share...
One big lesson: exposure is good.
BH (Me): 34 WW: 33 M:7yrs. No kids. DDAY 1, AUG 30, 2010, ONS with ex-coworker. TT. DDAY 2, Sept 10, 2010 , Learned of 2nd PA with XBF. Also TT. DDAY 3, October 15, 2010, NC with co-worker was broken, FT. DDAY 4, FEB 9, 2010, NC was broken.
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Good job!! This is a good start. Even though I don't believe most of what she said, you did a great job of getting things out into the open. Will she send him a no contact letter? [I will post a template from Surviving an Affair at the bottom] Anyway, it turns out that all this happened last week. And, although she's been disappearing a lot, at least it wasn't to him. I think she's just dealing with a lost relationship within a relationship. How tragically....strange? Ain't buying it. Where was she? Can she account for her time? This is probably a lie. I would strongly suggest you slap a GPS back on her car and spy like a blood hound. If she shows up at the OM's, then you should show up too, just AFTER you call his GF and bust his [censored]. And when she was thinking of leaving the relationship, it was because of the relationship and not him (so much). Everything she has said here needs to be VERIFIED. I would stay in touch with the OM's GF and compare notes. Her statement that she was thinking of leaving the marriage while in an affair is fogbabble but that is ok. The next thing that needs to happen is a PLAN for recovery: a) AFFAIR PROOF the marriage and b) build a romantic relationship. Is she willing to affair proof the marriage? How will she ensure the affair does not start up again? I would ask her this and make some sugggestions, such as complete transparency and a complete accounting for her time. That is the LEAST she can do to EARN your trust again. From Requirements for Recovery: The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide. I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail. The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy. This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted. An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them. After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance. And the no contact letter from SAA should be written together, approved by you and mailed together: My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent here [from SAA, pg 58] OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely, XXXXX
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Does this bum have a facebook page?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thank you, Melody. Yes, a no-contact letter is next. (Assuming she wants to stay in the marriage which we're still working out. She doesn't want to be the kind of person who has affairs--too late, I know--so she's wondering if she should be married at all, to anybody.)
The good thing is my wife can't fence sit anymore. As for her missing hours, they're not completely missing... I'm getting bits of pieces of her lost time (not from her but people she's been talking to, friends and family) and it seems like there's been a lot of time spent at our church and in the parking lot of our church. She is religious and she feels like what she did is a sin against me and a sin against God (from her mom). And she can't believe she let it happen (or jumped into it) twice (from mom again).
Her mom also said "If you're so unhappy, why don't you leave the marriage?" And my wife said, "My husband is the best thing that ever happened to me. I just can't stop being an idiot."
Sigh. Why are these things soooooo hard?
Weird question. What do I do next? The guy is out of the picture so an ultimatum seems silly although getting that no-contact letter is important...as I know it's not really over until she sends something as he can enter her life whenever he wants to and our marriage will never be truly safe until it comes from her...and I will explain this to her, although she'll probably say, "But I've already written him two and now he doesn't even want to talk to me...so what would that accomplish?"
BH (Me): 34 WW: 33 M:7yrs. No kids. DDAY 1, AUG 30, 2010, ONS with ex-coworker. TT. DDAY 2, Sept 10, 2010 , Learned of 2nd PA with XBF. Also TT. DDAY 3, October 15, 2010, NC with co-worker was broken, FT. DDAY 4, FEB 9, 2010, NC was broken.
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Weird question. What do I do next? The guy is out of the picture so an ultimatum seems silly although getting that no-contact letter is important...as I know it's not really over until she sends something as he can enter her life whenever he wants to and our marriage will never be truly safe until it comes from her...and I will explain this to her, although she'll probably say, "But I've already written him two and now he doesn't even want to talk to me...so what would that accomplish?" ok, tell her that you are only willing to stay in the marriage if she ends her affair and agrees to never ever see or speak to the OM again. There is no other way that you can risk this again. You would be willing to stay if she is willing to cooperate in a program of recovery. Those are the only conditions you would consider. So, the first thing she could do to show her good will is to send the OM a no contact letter. This would be a good will gesture to you. The second thing would be to open up her life to you and become completely transparent and account for every moment. You would need her cell phone passwords, etc. This is the only way you would feel safe. Then suggest that you want both of you to be happy in your marriage and here is the best plan I have found. Here is what it will take to recover our marriage: [then show her the things from Requirements for Recovery] and it seems like there's been a lot of time spent at our church and in the parking lot of our church. This is not believable. I would explain that you need to know what she has been doing. She owes you the truth.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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No Facebook page. I just checked. I'm not on Facebook either nor is my wife... a lot of evil stuff happens through Facebook. I've seen a lot of my friend's lives destroyed because of social networking... it's just too easy to start keeping secrets that lead to an affair.
BH (Me): 34 WW: 33 M:7yrs. No kids. DDAY 1, AUG 30, 2010, ONS with ex-coworker. TT. DDAY 2, Sept 10, 2010 , Learned of 2nd PA with XBF. Also TT. DDAY 3, October 15, 2010, NC with co-worker was broken, FT. DDAY 4, FEB 9, 2010, NC was broken.
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She is religious and she feels like what she did is a sin against me and a sin against God (from her mom). And she can't believe she let it happen (or jumped into it) twice (from mom again). I would capitalize on this fogbabble by handing her this article about FORGIVENESS, telling her you will give her an opportunity to EARN forgiveness: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I will talk to her although in my gut, I don't think she's lying... (and my gut has been going crazy these last few months because I knew something was wrong and it's finally settling down now that I'm getting answers.)
Anyway, I found out she went on a hike to a waterfall, I found out she went to our favorite restaurant, I found out she went shopping for me... and so forth. It kind of makes sense (in a sucky way). She works at an intense job, and I think she lost somebody she really liked. She can't exactly grieve at home so she's grieving alone. That kind of makes sense. It's sad but it makes sense.
As for transparency, she gave me all the pass codes to everything six months ago when I first found out...and I went insane with it. I checked everything all the time. I grilled her about every number that I didn't know. Every contact I didn't know. I went a little crazy I think. And it didn't make a damn difference, because after about two months, she just opened a new email account at work and contacted the guy again. Transparency only works if the person wants to be transparent.
She wanted to have this affair and she had it. Now the question is will we survive?
BH (Me): 34 WW: 33 M:7yrs. No kids. DDAY 1, AUG 30, 2010, ONS with ex-coworker. TT. DDAY 2, Sept 10, 2010 , Learned of 2nd PA with XBF. Also TT. DDAY 3, October 15, 2010, NC with co-worker was broken, FT. DDAY 4, FEB 9, 2010, NC was broken.
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As for transparency, she gave me all the pass codes to everything six months ago when I first found out...and I went insane with it. I checked everything all the time. I grilled her about every number that I didn't know. Every contact I didn't know. I went a little crazy I think. And it didn't make a damn difference, because after about two months, she just opened a new email account at work and contacted the guy again. Transparency only works if the person wants to be transparent. Well, this is what it will take to survive. In order to survive, you need complete transparency and you will need to snoop. Indepdently verifying her activities will give you PEACE, not turmoil. If she opened a new email account in the past, then I would be sure and place a keylogger on her computer this time. [without her knowledge] You will need to do some snooping behind the scenes in order to a) protect yourself from a repeat and b) rebuild trust by verifying her words. You should check every # you don't recognize. That is part of rebuilding trust, AKUA. In the past this was upsetting to you because she always hiding something. And sure it is not fun, but recovery is not supposed to be fun. The way people have affairs is by leading SECRET SECOND LIVES so the goal here is to make that impossible with complete transparency.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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