I have been posting in the Recovery forum for almost 2 years under "fog, grieving, how long?"

My husband moved out tonight.

He will be back tomorrow to work out the details.

I asked him to consider separation as he didn't want to do anymore MC work after 18 mos. with Steve Harley and says he still loves the OW.

He has been NC for 2 years and OW is getting married.

He says he doesn't know who he is, much is swirling around in his head.

I suggested IC for him after DDay. His childhood issues created behaviors that got him into a loveless marriage.

Adultery was the outcome after 28 years of marriage.

He has come out of most of the fog except realizing that his feelings for the OW are not love.

He is starting to do IC.

I feel he needs time to deal with working on all that before he can work on recovering a marriage - if he ever actually decides to do so.

I can't continue to invest in a relationship with someone who has never loved me and 5 years after meeting OW and 2 years after DDay says he has "feelings of romantic love" for her.

I know many WS use "space" and "time alone" as excuses to continue an A without interference.

In my husband's case, I believe he needs this.

I know chances increase with separation that he will move towards divorce.

My college age daughters have yet to hear about the separation.

Any advice for me?

77,

Sounds to me like you're enforcing a boundary...and a healthy one, I think, after many previous enforcements. If he has truly had NC for virtually two years, then there's no way his romantic feelings didn't go away after the first year of withdrawal. I'm sorry...his addiction to the feelings was maintained in some way (in self-deceptive stories in his head, fantasies, something).

So by separating, are you going into Plan B? Will you go very dark, use an intermediary (not either of your DDs), so that you can protect any remaining love you have and to ensure you are not in the way of his consequences?

LA

One of the best comforts I had during my actual divorce/separation (when I knew It was truly over) was reading...A special book to me and one I passed on to other women who were in the throws of divorce without possibility of reconciliation is "Cutting Loose" by Abigail Trafford. Regardless of what happens during plan B (I do wish you success), this book was empowering, a huge lifeline for coming out on the otherside...in my case Divorce. Empowering to be sure.

thanks, Loving and Ruby for your posts. I shall look up the book.

Tonight my H and I signed a 3 mos. nonlegal separation agreement based on the book, "Reconcilable Differences".

Also told our daughters.

I told him it was not a good idea for him to come here and "do things" (The same things I had to pull teeth to get him to do before?)that we shouldn't be "seeing" each other.

His purpose of time alone to work on issues was partly the reason for the separation. Not having to expend energy trying to relate to me - which he didn't want to do- would be defeated if he came around.

His continuing feelings for the OW are due to fantasy, and MBing to fantasies of her, but also because he has never loved me and felt resentment being in a marriage to me.

The "feelings" of excitement and "aliveness" generated by the A became addictive. Hard to know at what point it is addiction to the feelings the person generates chemically in the brain, or true love.

My H says he moves slowly, gets things slowly. Perhaps coming out of the fog and realizing the fallacy of his feelings for OW will take longer than the norm. Perhaps he'll never come out.

Perhaps he'll come out, get himself figured out and decide for sure I am definitely NOT for him!

Seems like separation is mostly waiting.

We did agree to phone contact if something of importance came up and we needed to talk.

The story of our journey to this point is in the Infidelity forum under "Fog, grieving, how long?"

(Except for the parts lost in the MB meltdown of "09")

Yesterday was our 33rd anniversary. My H called to tell me someone he had "told" about our separation and then said, "I could say, happy anniversary, but that would be inappropriate."

So why say it?

Are you going to go dark Plan B? You shouldn't have any contact at all. Can you find intermediary? Your WH has put you through enough mental pain - go dark - don't allow it any more.

Gg

Well, right now we are OK with only phone calls if something important needs to be discussed or transmitted: health crisis of my father-in-law, issues needing both our input concerning our daughters, etc.

I don't expect much else.

Last night when I came home, he was here gathering things for his snow camping trip this weekend.
I did not want to see him or have to speak with him, especially yesterday, on our anniversary. I parked down the road until he left - he didn't leave until around nine.

I thought about an intermediary, but it works for now if I just drop off bills with his secretary when he isn't there.

I know he will need to return for "things", but our agreement is that we cannot enter each other's home without permission. I intend to be gone if he must come by. Then I will put a deadline on him being able to do that. Get all your stuff out so you don't have to keep coming by for something for a specific activity.
Hopefully he will realize this is real and I am not just caretaking his belongings until he needs something.

Thanks for checking all my posts, gg

Hi, 77.

I see you write a lot about your husband using this time to figure out what he wants. What about you? What do you want? What kind of marriage do you want? What kind of man do you want to be in your life?

I don't know what life has in store. I learned that the hard way. BUT, I can tell you that now that I know what it is to be cared for and cherished, I won't accept less. I'm happier now, even as a widow, than I was with my first husband. I will be alone for the rest of my years before I go back to a bad relationship.

Use this time to decide what you want. What you want is just as important as what he wants.

What I want doesn't look much like my husband. If I think about that, isn't it sin to be wishing for someone/thing else?

I want to experience with my husband what you did: cared for and CHERISHED, loved. My H says he can't do that for me.

77club, I don't know what your faith teaches you on this.

I do know that we often choose spouses whom God would rather we didn't. Sometimes, the marriage just isn't a marriage at all. I know in my own case, my first husband was never on the same team as me. He didn't want a partner at all. He wanted to live his life exactly as he wanted without taking my feelings, goals, desires into account. On top of that, we were deeply incompatible. I know the Dr. H believes compatibility can be developed, but I believe this is only true when there is fundamental underlying compatibility. My first H and I very quickly found out we didn't match. It was only about 3 months into the marriage that everything started falling apart. I know I'm not rewriting history here since I actually went to my psychiatrist to talk about it. I don't believe it was a sin for me to finally divorce my first husband. He hadn't honored his vow to cherish me, and I strongly suspect he hadn't honored his vow to be faith either.

By the time I finally divorced him, I hated him. I wished him dead. I was planning to spend the rest of my life alone and content rather than live with him another day. By staying with my first H, I was becoming a bitter, negative, and bad person. I'm sure I was sinning a lot in thought word and deed. I certainly didn't love my husband as myself or even as I loved my neighbor.

Here's another thought. God created us with some hard wiring. One of the things hard wired in is to avoid pain. If something or someone is repeatedly hurting you, you start to avoid the pain. In Plan A, we attempt to bypass this wiring for a time. But it's important that we only bypass it for a limited time. God built us like that in order to help protect us against danger to our bodies, our hearts and our souls.

I just want you to remember that you hold half the cards during the separation. You can't make him come back and you can't make him demonstrate care for you. But, at the same time, he can't make you take him back as is.

So, write up what he'd need to do for you to take him back. You'll want to be fully armed when he comes back. And my guess is that after 6 months to a year, he will come back. In general, men do less well on their own that women. The question will then be if he just wants to go back to the same old, same old or if he's going to be the husband you want.

Exactly my question.
If he comes back, will he expect it to be like it was?

After 3 days apart, I already am thinking, if he comes back, will he expect to be able to do X? If he comes back, will he continue to Y? If he comes back, can I demand Z?

I know he could come back only if his feelings and attitudes have changed. But I'm wondering if I can expect behaviors to change. Can I expect him to "clean up his act"?

If I start delivering demands, he won't want to return, yet I don't want to have everything go back to the same habits.

Perhaps I am being unrealistic, and of course am hard pressed to determine how my habits should change!

I know I will have to have a plan B letter ready in that I do need to define what my requirements are from him for me to be able to be in a relationship with him.

I believe I will consult with Steve Harley on the specifics, but not just yet, I don't believe anything will be happening soon.

Yes, I know he'll do less well on his own, but I don't want that to be the reason he wants to come back: for me to take care of things for him, a comfortable familiar surroundings. I, of course, want him to come back because he wants a marriage with me and he has no romantic feelings for the OW.

77, you need behavioral change from your H as much as anything.

Now is not the time to deliver demands. HOWEVER, now is a good time to assess what exactly you want to see him change behavior wise.

First and top of the list would be dating. I'm assuming you don't have any small children, therefore date night twice or three times a week seems reasonable. Husbands and wives should date each other. If he's not willing to date you, he's not good spouse material. Dates don't need to be elaborate dinners out, but they have to be time spent together building the relationship through fun and focus. And this can easily be put in place before he's allowed back in.

Under normal circumstances, ( a couple marries because they love each other and want to be together) a list of demands and dates is called for.

My husband has wanted to not be married to me since we were dating. He has tried hard not to leave after his A, which I believe he hoped would be an exit A. He really wanted to leave all through the last 2 years.

His dream is now true in the sense that he doesn't have to interact with me, see me, talk to me or date me.

You're right, "IF he's not willing to date you, he's not good spouse material." He wasn't willing to date me then, and he doesn't want to date me now.

He's not going to accede to any demands because he never wanted to be and does not NOW want to be in a marriage with me.

He could just never bring himself to end it.

Demands and pressure won't work on someone who has no investment in the marriage and doesn't want it anyway.

All the "shoulds" and supposed tos don't apply to us.

Thanks, for your input. It just doesn't work (the usual) for us.

Explain this to me:

He moved out. We agreed to call if children or emergency issues came up. He has called to ask if he could come out and get/do things.

He wanted to come out and prune and mow the orchard and thought he should do it while I was in church on Sunday.

I asked if he wasn't going to church. He said, "you seem to want to avoid me, so I thought I could do it when you aren't at home."

I told him I wasn't "avoiding" him, but that we separated, we aren't suppose to be "seeing" each other, isn't that what you understand?"

He agreed, but why this "you want to avoid me" stuff?

I sit elsewhere in church so we don't have the uncomfortableness of staring at the back of each other's head. (We agreed to try to stay in our church as we both want to be there. That may change if it becomes awkward.)

I dropped bills off at his office to his secretary so as not to "see" him.

While coming out of my IC appt, he drove into the parking lot for his appt. I stepped behind a wall until he entered the office.

We didn't agree to see and visit with each other. We agreed not to "date" each other, so why is he feeling like I am going out of my way to "avoid" him?

Seems odd, also, from someone who has wanted out of the marriage since it began and who has had to "force" himself to stay since his A.

Hello, 77. Been a while. I've been mostly off the boards, but read every now and again. Saw your recent posts over on Recovery, and learned that you have landed here.

I am so sorry for all you've been through. You truly "fought the good fight." It was never possible for you to do it alone...you know it, and God knows it. He will smile on you. (((77)))

I am encouraged to see that you have taken a step to get away from this hurtful, damaged man. You can't fix him, you know that. What did it for me (thinking you SHOULD separate yourself from him for your own protection) was your relating the story of how he said he LAUGHED during your difficult delivery because he enjoyed seeing you in pain. That is WAY beyond wayward...it is sadistic. He may or may not ever work through his issues, but it is imperative that YOU be protected from them. So, kudos for doing what was long overdue.

Interesting that now that you have made this move, and seem ready to move on, he is making excuses to see you. He is finding out that, while he can't live with you, he doesn't know how to live WITHOUT you. It's called "enmeshment, and it isn't healthy, as you've learned. That's the reason he has stayed all these years. Until he finds himself,and faces what he finds, nothing could change.

You marriage may or may not be over, but I do hope you will go completely dark during this separation so he has the best chance of doing that work. Till he does, he's not worth having.

You remain in my prayers.

Rightthere, I have missed you and wondered if one doesn't need or want to frequent these boards when things are going well in recovery. I'm glad if that is the case for you.

I struggle daily, hourly. Despite all the emotions I've been through and think I have mastered, new ones and returning ones crop up every time a new layer of the onion is peeled back.

Now I am dealing with the new layer of separation. I'm not missing him, per se, but do get lonely. I grieve the loss of a marriage, of the wasted years of my life, that I am too old to start over financially, careerwise, healthwise, relationally. I grieve that my kids have to arrange to spend time with their parents separately.

I know that his efforts at doing "things" is more out of guilt and trying to NOW do right by me than because of feelings of love or care for me.

All of the wonderful feelings of rejection slam into me again. The nagging feeling that he was embarrassed to be with me around his high school friends at reunions, etc. is now proven true. He was resentful that I was there, with him and he had to be my husband around them.

If he is going through any feelings, I don't believe it is not that he can't live without me. I believe he is more relieved than anything, but suffers guilt.

Sunday while meditating I suddenly accepted that I am not the one responsible for this dysfunctional marriage. Yes, I did alot through the years harmful to this marriage in my frustration. I busted, AO, DJ, etc. I now know why - I was married to a man who only was married to me on paper. He never intended or wanted to become one with me.

But, He began the lie, he perpetuated the lie.

The lie or having feelings for me, which he never had.

He could have ended it after the infatuation passed. He could have ended it anytime in 6 1/2 years of dating. He could have ended it after the miscarriage. He could have been truthful 39 years ago, 25 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago. He started the lie and he is responsible for the mess he brought this family to because of his avoidance of conflict and truth.

I believe we are 50 - 50 in our responsibility for the condition of our behaviors within the marriage. But he is 100% responsible for stringing along a relationship when he didn't want it, ever, and still doesn't.

I am not accepting that I am responsible for his unhappiness, he is.

Hi 77,
It's been a long time but have mostly caught up on your new thread here.

I think that Rightherewaiting is right on. Ditto everything she said. Please read her post again and do the dark separation.
I personally think you should go right to divorce.

You have some great insight in your last post. Keep reading it to yourself to strengthen your resolve to study MB and follow a dark Plan B / Plan D.

Your last sentence is wonderful. Write it down and read it every morning. It could be the cornerstone for building your new life.

Best of luck.

thanks, Pinata. I am rereading that last sentence over and over in my head at your suggestion.

Right there --"enmeshment" -- funny word. The word the OW used in a letter to our pastors to explain what she learned about herself in counseling with a sex therapist which she sought AFTER she heard from me that I knew about my H's A with her.

Her "enmeshment" always included sex as a result of her childhood sexual molestation. She was VERY promiscuous before becoming a Christian and slipped while a Christian.

My husband was a sitting duck. But, he intentionally set himself up as the target!

I have always had to be independent because I had to take over so much and make so much happen for our family due to my H's passivity and desire to NOT have a life with me (which then spilled over to our children, also).

I don't consider myself more "enmeshed" than a wife/mother would be after 33 years of marriage. More like "invested".

I don't consider myself co-dependent or an enabler, other words thrown around this situation.

I don't like to take charge and do what others should, I don't play the martyr well, but people have thrown these words at me.

I shall explore these with my therapist to learn if I am dealing with the typical tearing apart issues of a failed marriage, or if I am being co-dependent, enabling, or enmeshed.

Of course, I want health in the Lord.

Thanks for your continuing encouragement.

So now I am stepping to the muckiness of separation.

1. Comcast called to say we are 2 mos behind on payment. We have never missed payment before.

My husband has been paying bills for over a year now after I gave the responsibility to him after hearing his complaints about "spending too much."

He had fits and starts getting things in on time, entering into the register properly, adding deposits correctly, etc. Now he has the routine down, but doesn't have a regular time to attend to the bills.

The problem is, this bill is the only one in MY name. Is this wrecking my chances for a decent credit rating or credit card application if I have to go out on my own?

I called my H and he says as far as he knows, he is current with them. I gave him the number to call.

2. Also, our agreement includes him mailing me a check on the first of each month.

He called yesterday, the 5th to say he has my check. He could get cash for me if I'd like and bring it by if I was needing cash. (I had family arriving today from out of state and he probably thought I might be needing cash)

I left the message that our agreement stated that he would MAIL a check, so I was just waiting for it to come in the mail.

Today he called again, he had gotten my message, yes he understands to mail the check. He offered again to bring it by when he and a daughter went riding. Now it's almost a week past so I told him to send it home the daughter visiting him today.

He sent both the check and the same amount in cash.

Is this just a rough start up, ironing out the wrinkles, or his typical way of not always getting it right, inattention, or what?