My ex and I have been divorced since Jan. She has been living with her parents and I have custody of our children, which I believe is part of the reason that she is now considering working things out.
She has told me that she is not seeing OM at this point any more and does not talk to him at all, but I cannot verify that because she does not offer that up when I ask. She still goes out pretty frequently, and lied to me last night about where she was which makes me all the more leery. She did apologize (this never happens) and promised that it would not happen again. I still have major trust issues as a result.
I am suggesting that we take things very slow and go to counseling. She is receptive to the idea. We are considering dating a bit.
My question is how do I request some proof from her of her honesty, without causing a huge withdraw from the love bank, so to speak. Been reading the Dr. H suggestions, and most of the time I feel like his advice would turn me into a do-it-at-all-costs pleaser, although I do understand the underlying intent of not having any more arguments or disagreements. Clearly I am having trouble protecting myself and attmepting to re-build the relationship. She thinks I am controlling and that is the reasont hat I am afraid to ask. (This is entirely not true) I have made some commitments to change the traits that she does not like as well.
I want her to understand that I cannot be lied to again, and that I want her to be completely honest with me.
Can you please help me out with the logistics?

Loaded, welcome to Marriage Builders. A few questions, if I may?

Was your divorce due to the OM? Was your wife having affair while you were married? How long were married? Why did you wind up with custody and not her? How long did your divorce take, and on what grounds was it granted?

I am by no means a "veteran," but there are some great people here who can help.

Married 12 years. I'm 32, she is 34, so we got married young. Wife has a long history of sexual abuse growing up, and that hurt the love life dynamic quite a bit.
We both were drinking regularly and quite a bit towards the end of it all. She got arrested for DWI and for some other minor illegal activities, which resulted in my custody ultimately.
She was having an affair for about 10 months, and denied it to the end until I produced the PI videos to her. After her parents found out from their attorney who she really was they cut off funding for her side of the divorce. She has been through a lot, and I think she might really need to go through a lot more, to be realistic.
I on the other hand,I have stopped drinking. Committed to AA, and that is part of my promise to her is no more alcohol in the house and I would not drink anymore. She has not made the same commitment, because she does not think there is a problem. I somewhat feel the same way, but the largest and most ugly arguments that we have had have been when she gets drunk.
I feel fairly confident that the affair is over. I do not know specifically, but the friends that she talks about are not the same friends as before, I imagine out of embarrassment. He cell phone is not attached to her hand anymore, and she can go hours without needing to check it. Before it was every 10 seconds and it was all a big secret.
She is talking about repairation of the marriage, like she has done some research on the topic quite a bit, and is open to spending QT, and dating a bit.
She does still lie, though. She is a liar to escape responsibility and criticism. She says it is because I have a temper, and I point out the only time I get pissed is when I find out that she is spending time with another man...She used to be able to come and go as she pleased, and ultimately, I created an atmosphere where she had absolutely no responsibility whatsoever, and I took care of everything. My fault. Not going to happen again.

That being said, I have some real issues that need to be addressed, but I want to get to a point where we are able to talk freely about things that need to be considered, without lies and criticism. At that point, I think we could come up with some kind of plan to possibly work things out.
I have some boundaries that need to be established, and I am in no hurry to rush back into a mess, after all, I am the one who basically won in the divorce...But I do sincerely love her, and I can see the things that I did and need to change that drove her away.
The question is when and how do I establish those boundaries without major LB withdraws? It seems like any suggestion to her to make some changes in what she is doing were met with sheer hostility, so I am scared to go there with her... I need to be able to KNOW that she is being honest. I need to be able to trust her, and I have communicated that to her, but relationship talk sometimes is a major downer when trying to have a nice amicable dinner!

Any suggestions?

Thank you for giving us more information.

Have you read the articles on this site? There is a mind-blowing amount of good, free information here. I recommend you start by clicking on Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts,which you can also find in the box to your right labeled "Most Popular Links." Dr. Harley has written some of the best books in the field, which I find amazingly easy to read. But I'm not going to recommend you buy anything, yet. There is an online bookstore, but many of his books can be found in public libraries and local bookstores.

We are not trying to sell you anything here.

We do try to help build strong, healthy marriages.

Currently, I'm not going to suggest you move this thread to the Surviving an Affair forum, but that may be an option, depending on how things go from here. That forum has more traffic, but there are two things that make me hesitant to suggest it.

• You are not trying to prevent a divorce, you are already divorced.
• There is an alcohol problem in your relationship.

Dr. Harley has written a series of articles on this subject, beginning with What to Do with an Alcoholic Spouse. In a nutshell, marital recovery cannot begin until alcoholism recovery is well under way.

Are you going to Al-Anon? I have found mens' Al-Anon groups very helpful in cases like yours. Added to your A.A. commitment, attendance at Al-Anon can be quite the eye-opener for the alcoholic, too!

Therefore, my immediate advice to you is to read, read and read some more -- the articles and newsletters on this site. At some point you may wish to purchase a book or two. You might ask here which would be best applicable to your situation. I also recommend that you first work on yourself. Continue your attendance at A.A., get informed about Marriage Builder concepts and principles, post here and ask questions, and let us help you steer your way to a healthy heart.

Agree 100% with Fred. There is no future in this relationship until she resolves her alcohol problem. As long as she drinks, the marriage problems cannot be addressed.

Nor should you EVER do Plan A with an active alcoholic. It is IMPOSSIBLE to meet the needs of an alcoholic and she will just use your overtures to exploit you. The best thing you can do is go into Plan B and tell her in your letter that if she stops drinking and gets into a program of recovery that you will consider giving her a chance. Tell her you must see a demonstrated change over a long period of time first.

And just my personal opinion, but I am an also a recovering alcoholic and I think it is a BAD IDEA to get hooked up with another alcoholic. Most of these marriages end in tragedy becuase you have 2 crazies in the same house. And I count myself in that class. Almost every marriage I know of between 2 crazies, no matter how "recovered" ended up bad and often ended up with BOTH drinking again. Alcoholics, by our nature, are plagued with independent behavior and all manner of character weaknesses that can ruin a marriage when BOTH partners have them.

Please stay away from the women in AA and instead,[we are crazy!] seek a relationship with a normal in your go around. I married a normal and it is a wonderful stabilizing effect in my life.

You tell her that you would only consider reconcilation if she is honest and rebuilds trust. [this is assuming you ever get to a point where she arrests her drinking problem] Marriage Builders believes in radical honesty, not beating around the bush. It is not a lovebuster to be honest and tell you expect proof of her honesty. That is what it will take even begin to think about recovery. If you can't be honest about things like this, you will never go forward.


Your instincts are right, you need to protect your self from her because she is dangerous. Dr Harley does not recommend Plan A in the case of alcoholism or POJA [policy of joint agreement] or the PORH [policy of radical honesty] in the case of abuse or infidelity. [alcohol addition falls in the abuse category]

You should protect yourself and your children first.


Asking her to be accountable to you and protecting your boundaries is not "controlling." What she is doing is asking you to stop preventing her from exploiting you. "you're controlling" is the common refrain of every abuser [usually women] who don't like it when their partner interferes with their abusive tactics.


You need to lay it all out on the table. Be honest, be FIRM. Women do not respect men who allow them to run over them, and our love is very contingent upon the respect we feel. A committment to care for a wife like yours, who engages in secrecy and other abusive tactics, leads to unrealistic expectations of entitlement.

Awewsome advice...I have read this website backwards and forwards. I feel pretty confident that I understand quite a bit about the concepts etc. That is what is making me very leery.

I have taken a more no-nonsense firm approach to this relationship. I can see the respect level changing quite a bit.

I just loose my mind when the lies start because it bring everything rushing back that I have just been through. The last thing I want is to move her back in with kids and everyone thinking that this will be good for us, and then have her spending the night out and acting flaky again.

I really appreciate the direction on the honesty. I am considering writing out what my expections are and bullet pointing them? (Is that over the top?) Just to be clear, and possibly suggesting that she do the same and present them to me at the same time.

I want no more flaky bending of the rules on mine or her parts.
I can see some similarities in her behavior and the Borderline descriptions going around some of these posts. I can also see some in myself as being overly dedicated to putting up with her crap.

I want no more flaky bending of the rules or expectations because, "I had too much to drink so I thought I should just crash at my girlfriend's house," bs going on anymore. Plus she still has massive legal debt and debt from the divorce that she has not taken responsibility for. The full effect of what is in place for our divorce is not yet come into full swing on her side yet either....ie the child support does not come for another 4 months for me and she still lives with her parents and they are moving to another state this next week, still does not have a drivers license and drives anyway, her car was/is about to be repo'd...etc...

That might be the best way to approach it. But I would frame it like this with her: I am not even willing to consider reconciling until I see a long term demonstration of your changes. Here are the things that would have to happen in order for me to even consider it:

1. 6 month sobriety and active participation on AA

2. complete transparency

3. committment to the marriage and end to running around like a single woman

Add what you think is necessary, but you get the idea.

Well...I tried to talk things out with her tonight and arrange some mutual expectations. I told her about my commitment to being alcohol free, and basically started off easy, with the, "look I can't have you running around with other men anymore if you want to do this, and I want you to prove this to me like I am proving this to you."

She was somewhat receptive at first, and then she started by bringing up a major mistake that I made about four years ago in telling someone I knew about her being sexually molested as a child. She told me that she could not trust me with her social life or friends and that she was really not willing to try basically, and that I would just have to trust her.

I told her it would not be good enough for me to just trust her or for her to just trust me, that we needed to be completely transparent and honest with each other. She said that she could not because I am guilty of airing out our dirty laundry and that she could not open up her social life to me again.

I stopped everything at that point and drove around the block. Came back and then talked a little bit more. I explained that I was hurt terribly as well by her actions and that I was willing to try and that was all I could basically say. At least I would try and I would prove or show her whatever proof she needed including checking in with my sponsor if she wanted to. She told me that when I betrayed that trust about her secret that the marriage was over, and she just wanted to be left alone, by everyone. I told her that was fine.

She cried through the hallway hugging all our kids goodbye, and then was going to leave. I went outside as she was about to drive away and she told stopped and got out and told me that she would consider what I was saying.

I explained that I thought her social life was an addiction, and it was being put above everything and everyone, including the kids, and that I would expect it to stop. I told her that I had to take responsibility for who I was and what I had done, and she agreed she would have to do the same, but still no commitment to honesty...

Who knows what all this means. She seems sincere in some respects and I do respect her situation to some extent because the molestation was terrible for her. I have apologized for years and it just never helps. It's been a huge problem for years. She definitely has some unresolved issues in that area. I don't know what to do, and at this point...I would say this idea is toast.

Should I plan B her or what? Or just say the hell with it and move on?

loaded, my suggestion would be to go into a very dark Plan B. As you have discovered, it is fruitless to try and have rational discussions with a wayward mind. Your wife is not rational. She is completely controlled by her addictions. Her mind is pickled with alcohol.

So, give her a plan B letter that lays it out completely [mail it or drop it off] and then go dark as night. otherwise she will keep you sucked into her drama. In the letter I would designate a intermediary who will pass on all pertinent information and not allow any crap messgaes to get through to you. Go check out this thread about the role of an intermediary:
Intermediary Training School

A good plan B letter - just alter to suit your purposes:
Dearest WW,
It is with the heaviest of hearts that I write you this letter. I am saddened by what has become of us, our friendship, our marriage. This letter is written to you as a necessity. Allow me to explain.

The eight years that we have been together were filled with an endless number of hugs, smiles, tears and laughs. I have loved you every minute of every day that we have spent together.

I realize that I have not been a perfect husband to you. I see now that both my attitude and financial irresponsibility drove a wedge into our marriage. I apologize to you. You must know that I never intended to hurt you or push you away from me.

The pain that your relationship with OM3 and the relationships that you have had during our marriage has been unimaginable. Continued contact with you has the potential of destroying my love for you and I don't want that to happen.

It is because of this that I must insist that we no longer contact each other, until you are no longer involved with OM3 or anyone else. I ask that you respect my decision. In the event of an emergency, or any necessary financial matters, please contact your mom, and she will contact me. Once you have ended your relationship with OM3 completely, please contact me, and I will be willing to discuss restoring our friendship and marriage.

I am committed to our marriage. I believe that we can build a marriage that is stronger and more beautiful than we have experienced. Beginning today, I walk forward in life, and I want you to walk with me. I love you with all of my heart.

Your loving husband,
Ethan

She is using the issue to manipulate you and demand that you afford her unwarranted trust. The bottom line is that you can't negotiate with a drunk, loaded.

Well, here is an update...I starting moving on and casually dating a few people. Just for company, no SF, just for time off while I was without kids. Very up front and open about that as well.
All of a sudden my Ex is "getting lonely" and is saying that this is never how she pitcured it would be. She is the one without the kids constantly and so I guess now that she is finally on the outside and her family is moving away, and she will be completely on her own, she is in shock.
I am seeing another person, though not seriously, it could very well be if I allowed it to be, but we are currently casually dating.
Now the Ex wants to try to work things out and is saying that we could do therapy for a year and consider how we felt with eachother during this time. I am going to wait to push the envelope on some of the bigger issues until we go to therapy, but now there are so many other things playing into this story. I have communicated to her that I do not know if I can handle the sex aspect of what she has done and the betrayal ultimately.
I don't really see how any man can stomach getting back with their wife after witnessing her behavior on video with another man, and it would really take a good therapist to convince me other-wise, though I do love her dearly.
Any suggestions on how to approach this? I would have to end my casual relationship, which sucks, because this new girl is very interesting to me, and go back to trying to put effort into something so messed up.
I just really do not know if people ever fully recover from something like this either...
It would have to take a real miracle, not saying that it's not possible, but...yea...

Keep the casual relationship. Your wife is far to broken for you to try and mend her and your marriage. You understand, right? She has to fix herself first. She is secretive and has an obvious air of entitlement. She is still justifying what she has done and is trying to make you bend your boundaries to fit her. A ticket to misery for you. If you don't take her back, she will be forced to deal with herself, and maybe work through her problems.JMHO

Is this just a scenario of XW finding you dating, and now wants you because she knows she may loose you?

Manipulation... it is so strong in one so young. For someone who does not feel "safe" letting you fuzzle in on her "social life"... she sure seems to want to have influence over yours.

hmmmmmm. 12 months of MC and maybe? maybe what?

First, learn the difference between boundries and manipulations. Do not set up manipulations, do not fall for any either.

Yes, you and boozie need to go to counseling. Best gift you can give your kids for their future-- a sober more serious mother.

If you like the girl, and she understands the truth of the situation. I would keep her around. No offence, but your XWW does NOT sound like a "keeper"

Yeah, you made the babies with her (I love kids) so you owe it to them to try your best to get along with their obviously hurting mother. That does not mean you commit emotional/social suicide in doing so.

YOU need to decide if you want this woman. You have to decide if you can rebuild. It does not sound like she is in any shape to parent.... be careful.

Yea, still no counseling. She half-assed lied tonight about going home and then ended up going out. She told me at the bar that she got invited at the last min. I appreciate the comments. I know this is screwed.
I get angry when I hold her. I have visions of the other guy and her together. Frickin crazy. I'd probably have to be on medication to sedate every normal human emotion to consider being back with her.
She will not change.
I got a good thing with someone else and maybe should just keep it casual, but at least I'll away from that.

loaded:

I wouldn't even entertain the idea of reconciliation unless she put in a lot of time at therapy. There are underlying issues and she has not done a thing to resolve them.