Mel and Mr. W

I agree with you in all that you say about waywards. What I don�t see are as producing a good result for Marriage Building is the way this wayward was addressed here.

Unfortunately we don�t have any any way to contact her BS or her BF to be able to help them and show them the compassion they deserve.

We only have access to the wayward and a very recent wayward at that.

When a BS comes on here, no one tells them to be sure to explain to their WS how mean and cruel and evil they are (however long the A has gone on) and if they don�t IMMEDIATELY repent and become remorseful they should be banned forever.

Don�t we recommend plan A.....to give the WS time to react while at the same time stating calmly how wrong and cruel the A is? And plan A is recommended for at least weeks....

Do you really think that Lokil would understand the MB concepts the way they were "explained" to her in her first thread?

Most waywards don�t even dare come on here even when they have repented.... It is unfortunate that the they cannot feel safe enough to come on here to learn. Actually I�ve seen BS who while posting here and getting compassion and help for their hurt, have become wayward themselves and of course they never told the MB community... What kind of people are they?

I would prefer waywards to be able to get MB advice about marriage than other kind of advice, especially TOW advice which will not benefit them or their WS or their marriage.

I wouldn�t want this thread to be locked again because of our discussions, while Lokil is not even around! I believe in MB and have been around for nearly 6 years now, I have exchanged e mails with Dr. Harley and have rea most of his books. I am convinced. But convincing others is another matter and that is the point in this case. What would be the best method (and timeline) to convince a WS that MB concepts lead to a good marriage?

I know I am considered a "bleeding heart", even tho Mel and Mr.W make excellent points, I find there is a huge rush to condem the WS. Especially if they don't drink the Kool Aid right away. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

How many times here have we hears a WS showing "remorse" and talking a good line, to the spouse and here on the boards-- then find out that the A was still going on? I would not trust a WS who was too repentant right away. I feel lk is at least honest. Fogogy as heck, but honest.

First, to clear up any confusion, to my knowledge Mr. W hasn't posted on this thread...It's just ME, Mrs. W that has...No worries, that's a common mistake, but sort of an important one on this particular thread since I am offering a FWS point of view...

Okay, so first, we can't Plan A lolkil...Plan A is about showing the WS a willingness to meet their needs, while still allowing the consequences of their actions to fall squarely upon their shoulders...How in the world could the board as a whole Plan A someone? It couldn't...

Secondly, you all are acting as though we are dealing with a FOGGY WS, and that isn't the case! "The Fog" is used to describe the behaviors of a WS who is in the throes of the affair ADDICTION...lolkil is NOT addicted to her affair partner - this was a one night stand - she is not going through withdrawal of any kind...Her brain is not awash in the chemicals brought on by the "in love" feelings most often experienced by WSs in an affair...NO, she IS thinking clearly - and trying very hard to figure the best way to deceive her husband and friend...

By all means if lolkil were here asking questions and trying to learn MB, then she should be helped, and I'd be one of the first ones applauding her...But I have not seen her ask anything about learning MB...Instead her questions are geared toward how she can best lie and deceive her BH and friend, and that is NOT MB at all...She is absolutely free to read any and all the materials here - she's obviously free to order any of Dr. Harley's books...What I don't think is great is for her to be here on page 1 of SAA essentially crowing about the fact that she has no intention of telling the truth to her BH or friend -- that seems rather cruel in this particular venue to me...

Please note that lolkil hasn't even asked why telling the truth is necessary...No, all she has done here is talk about how to manage HER feelings of guilt...She is here looking for a way to soothe or kill her conscience, not for a way to fix her marriage - She doesn't even believe her marriage is broken for goodness sakes! To paraphrase Dr. Phil, "You can't fix what you won't acknowledge"!

Mrs. W

My favorite response to this sort of situation (an active WS posting) was written by another MBer, Weaver.
It says everything so perfectly that I don't feel it needs any input from me, other than reposting now and then.

Here it is:
Link to notable posts

ccbis, it does take a while for a person to understand MB concepts, but that is not the issue here. The issue is her WILLINGNESS to use them. People will only tolerate an unrepentant OW so long. It most certainly does not take more than one thread to discern if someone is sincere or not. The issue is this OW's willingness to be HONEST. Honesty is a universal practice and has nothing to do with "learning MB concepts." Nor does one learn MB concepts when they don't WANT to learn them. As of her last postings she had refused to be honest with her victims and was extremely happy that the OMW had not discovered her crime against her. This OW is not here to "learn MB concepts" she is here looking for validation for continue to lie about her crime to her victims, just as she said. It is arrogant and unrealistic to imagine you can teach someone against their will.

What I don't see as producing a good result is the practice of ENABLING and coddling an unrepentant, cruel OW. There is nothing "compassionate" about that. It helps no one. We routinely tell BS' *NOT* to bring their waywards here when they are still lying and cheating because we can't help them. In AA, when a falling down drunk shows up at meetings we escort him to the door. It is not "compassionate" to endure his fobbabble or to allow him to disrupt the meeting for others. It is also arrogant to imagine that you can force a person to do something against his will. It is an exercise in futility that only sucks from others that really NEED HELP.

How about aiming some of your self professed compassion and empathy towards the folks who are really here to get help? Instead of putting down morally outraged board members for being disgusted at flagrant cruelty, how about showing some compassion for THEM?

ccbis, this is nonsense. There are even several FWS' who have posted on this thread. We welcome the sincere ones with open arms. Even the insincere, unrepentant [who should be hiding their faces anyway] could come on the forum and read without posting. This OW was given hundreds of posts trying to help her, she REFUSED the help.

So don't act like she couldn't get help; she REFUSED the help she was given and wasted valuable board time that could have been given to those in need.

My H is diabetic, and early in our marriage, his sugar went so low that he almost slipped into a coma during the night. Yes, he was not really eating right, but that wasn't the point. He was non-responsive. I had to give him a glucagon (sugar) sot. I don't give shots. I didn't really have time to think about how to be gentle or avoid the muscle or make it so it wouldn't hurt. He was going to die. So I stuck it in. In five minutes, he was awake. Now, his arm hurt for days because I am not a "trained nurse." But he didn't complain because the situation was dire. He didn't wine about my shot technique or ask why I didn't consult more medical professionals before giving it. Because he had the brain capacity to see the real, acute situation.

A WS is KILLING their marriage. It isn't time for injection training. It's time for drastic measures. Someone who gets what adultery really is isn't going to waste a lot of time dodging their responsibilities. In my experiene, the most defensive people of all are usually the people who really don't have anything valid to defend.

My H's unle spent much of his life in Italy. He married and had two children there. Then he moed for work to Brazil, where he took a common law wife for 12 years. Then he moved to the US. He has never expressed any remorse for the lon term betrayal of his wife and kids in Italy. Everyone just chalks it up to the "European mentality." Personally, I don't care if he lives on the moon. Infidelity is universally wrong. So if a WS is going to do the right thing, then he/she needs to do the right thing no matter what hemisphere they live in.

Amen to luroosi!

p.s. sorry to hear about your husband and bravo to you for saving his life. Are you familiar with the book Dr Bernstein's Diabetes Solution? I am a voracious nutrition researcher and I have read about his work in several different places. Diabetics just love this guy because he is able to cure Type 11 and greatly reduces the insulin requirements of the Type 1's. His program supposedly extends the life of the Type 1's by controlling their blood sugar levels. The guy is a genius from what I hear. I found his link here

Thanks for the link! H does a very good job of staying in control typically. He's had type 1 for close to 30 years and has no kidney damage, liver damage, eye problems, or neuropathy. probably because his wife is a glucagon shot-wielding superhero!

t/j: luri....you've mentioned you are the higher drive spouse. Does your husband's diabetes play into this at all?

It probably does to an extent.

Have you had a change of thinking Lokil?

Change of thinking?, I guess not I still think it was a pretty bad thing to do and I still regret it every second that I'm awake.

Lokil

When I would sober up and realize all the A's (mainly ONS) I had had on my W it drove me almost to the point of suicide.

Drunk or sober I started to feel like suicide. The conscience (sp) worked all the time on me. The only time I found relief was when I was totally blitzed and then b-4 starting to drink I wondered If I would do something stupid.

I could not live with the fact that I had become a low life drunken cheat and I would not fess up to my W even though she new alot.

I'm not making any statement about your drinking but the conscience has a way of leading us to the realization of who we are and the type of life we want to live.

My W knows of my past life and is aware of my strong feeling concerning A's. I have disclosed as much as I can remember. I keep no secrets from her. I've worked MB's as best as I can to put the F in front of WW. I'm definately not WW anymore.

Your still posting here so where is your conscience leading you????

NESRE

I think people are wondering if you've told your H yet? I'm guessing the answer is no.

Why?

Well, if you had told him, you probably would have come back for help putting your marriage back together. You haven't done that. The most likely reason seems to be that your H doesn't know his life is falling apart yet.

I did not came back here before because he uses my computer sometimes, and I don't ant him to touch this website with a 10 foot pole, he's out of town again so, i came back here to do some reading.