In my counseling today I had, I don't know if you would call it a breakthrough or not, a discovery. We were trying to figure out why I have trouble communicating with my w. Everybody else says I'm a good communicator but her.<P>My main beef has been that my w is always angry and I never knew why(I never asked and she never said). Instead I chose to withdraw adn ended up neglecting my w.<P>The counselor asked me to relate the last time my w was mad about something, not necessarily me and how I reacted.<P>I related a story in which my w got mad at the kids because they didn't like the hot dogs she made for lunch. She got angry. I got angry for her getting angry about what I perceived to be a trivial thing. After all she hadn't made the hot dog, she just cooked them, how could anyone be mad about that ?<P>What my counselor pointed out was that I was using logic and missing the point of my w's anger. I keyed in on hot dog instead of her feeling about not being appreciated.<P>We discussed why I get angry at her for her emotions/anger and I said because it upsets me and I don't know how to handle it..<P>Basically I am afraid of emotion(affection and anger) as I do not how to handle them and as a result I have buried them inside me. I am very even keeled in that I don't get extremely happy or sad or affectionate and I am beginning to think that is why because I'm afraid I lose control of these emotions and either get hurt or not act " manly."<P>In looking at my upbringing, I only remember my parents fighting once and really don't remember them kissing or showing affection at all.<P>My w's family on the other hand w was quite active in both emotions. My w gets very passinate during any discussions and I tend to shrink away as I interupt this as anger.<P><BR>My counselor gave me a reading on communications and wanst to do some role playing to teach me better communication skills and get used to looking past the emotion. I'm real interested in this to see if I can make a change in myself.

You're not alone...<P>I believe that this is a very common trait (especially among men)... I feel I had been like that with my wife too!<P>This is something to work on...<BR>Improve Yourself!<P>I'll pray for you on this.<P>Jim<P>--------<P>I can dare myself... I'll put a pebble in my shoe...<BR>I can walk... I can walk! I shall call the pebble Dare...<BR>Dare shall be carried... And when we both have had enough<BR>I will take him from my shoe, singing... "Meet your new road!"...<BR>Finally glad... Finally glad... That you are here... By my side...

That sounds so much like my H, in that he gets so upset if I am angry, even if it has nothing to do with him or with the kids. I always felt like I was not allowed to be angry, but he was.<P>The hot dog story was interesting - as soon as I read the first sentence I thought, "Yeah, I can identify with that", so it was obvious to me, having been in that situation, that her anger was because she felt unappreciated.<P>I don't think my H's parents ever argued - at least I never saw them do so. My parents certainly did. And my father loved to debate anything - politics, religion, whatever. I don't even really know much about my H's religious beliefs, because not only will he not debate religion, he is reluctant to even discuss it. Like you, we can't have a passionate discussion without him getting angry at me or accusing me of being angry at him. He also has a really hard time dealing with one of our kids, who would almost rather argue than eat.

OK rwd, this is where I and this counselling part company. Sure you acted as any normal thinking person would. Someone has to. So does that mean you need to second guess your logic in order to Satisfy some emotional need that she percieves is important? She is a mature adult, let her tell yiou what is bothering her, instead of you always having to look at this other aspect. <BR>Man this makes me angry. Because they cannot express a simple thought that we missed, that justifies them having an affair. <BR>Keep it in its' proper perspective: she had the affair, It is her fault alone. There is nothing you did that in any way justifies what she did. <BR>I see this being thrown around as a way of deflecting blame. We have a communications problem, that is why the affair.<BR>RWD, don't you or anyone else fall for it. Hold her soley accountable.

RWD,<P>Glad to hear what I would definitely call a breakthrough for you. It is unfortunate it takes circumstances like ours to examine our own behavior.<P>It sounds like you and I grew up in the same household. My parents never really showed affection toward each other and Val's family was very loving. What I expected out of marriage and what she expected were two different things. I believe that's where the problems for us started.<P>Once again good for you. It's a good starting place. I learned alot over the past 7 months about me and my short comings.<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic...yeah I'm still around

Ok, I don't get it. You cook hot dogs, your kids don't eat them, you get annoyed and tell the kids that if you went to all the trouble to cook them, they'd better eat them or they could start making their own lunches. What other possible reason would there be for her to get upset other than feeling unappreciated?

RWD<P>I too am making progress on myself. I am going to be evaluated for Adult Attention Deficit Disorder. If in fact I do have AADD then it explains a lot in my life to do with anger and self esteem and also explains why my wife was hurt by me. I also suspect that my wife has AADD too(hyperactive) which also explains a lot of the triggers of my anger - she never knew why. None of this justifies the affair, but I feel like at least if it is true I have something to work on out of this mess.<P>You say your wife is a workaholic and she seems to get angry over trivia, how long does she retain that anger? Does she have mood swings? Is she a good housewife? Can she hyperfocus? Is she easily irritable? Does she lose things all the time, like keys? Does she have a bad temper? Is she impulsive? <P>

Thanks for your replies:<BR>Fighter,<BR>It was HER choice to have affair. I'm just trying to understand what would have caused her to be so unhappy that that SHE could have done this terrible thing to me and the kids. She may have unreasonable needs for affection, but apparently I wasn't give her any. So for this marriage or my next relationship to work, I need to improve myself whether it be showing more affection or improving my communication or making a better selection in a mate.<P>Awoken,<BR>I may have overstated that she is a workaholic, she only works part-time. I seem to have a hangup with her work beyond that is where she met the om. I'm not sure as to what it is, her missing a lot of the kids stuff because she works, the fact that I felt I was doing everything, working all day and then coming home and taking care of the kids. She has admitted that she feels she has a calling for nursing and that she receives a lot of validation from it. I guess it just that we aren't together that much and it has worn on me over the past 5 yrs to the point that we have grown apart as we each looked outwards instead of towards each other.<BR>As for AADD, i don't see any of those characteristics. She does have low self esteem which I think leds her to need a lot of validation and affection to show she is loved.<P> Part of it also is I don't feel she appreciates/respects what I do. I enjoy what I do but it is just a job and she doesn't seem to appreciate that. I would much rather be at home and putter around the house. Maybe I should become a househusband.<P>Nellie,<BR>I wasn't sure by what you meant by your second post. I didn't understand why she would get upset for the kids not liking the hot dog afterall it wasn't like she ground up all the ingriediants and stuffed it herself. Besides it was her "duty" to prepare the kids something they liked.<P>That pretty much sums up my attitude on a lot of things. I felt each of us had "duties" as a husband and wife and as parents. I never saw the need for recognition for completeing these duties. I never felt as I did. I don't even feel its necessary for recognition at work as they do pay me. <P>I just failed to understand that some people, especially my wife, do need that recognition.<P>I see that I do that with my kids and kids that I coach and to alesser extent the adults I play sports with. <P>Why wouldn't I do that for my wife???????????<p>[This message has been edited by RWD (edited October 23, 1999).]

RWD,<BR>Are you related to my H? I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I remember him thanking me for doing something for him. Has you wife told you how much she wants to be appreciated? I told my H on more than one occasion, but I think it went in one ear and out the other. I think he, however, does need appreciation - and I tried to let him know how much I appreciated him. I can completely identify with your wife's need for recognition. My son recently started thanking me when I make a meal he likes, and I can't tell you how good that makes me feel. My boss thanks me every day when I leave, and I appreciate that as much as the fact that he pays me (not that I would work for long if he stopped paying me!). When my H talked me into giving up my job, my friends, and my home to move with him so he could farm, all he needed to have done was say thank you for coming with me, for getting up at dawn on twenty degree below zero mornings to milk cows and shovel manure - and I would never have felt any resentment. I would have been happy to do it. But he never said a word - instead he got angry at me if I was the least bit irritable. During this time I would go to my second job and people would appreciate what I was doing - I was told how nice, how competent I was - a couple of students I supervised gave me flowers, one student gave me a pizza (he said his wife wouldn't have approved had he brought me flowers) - and I would come home to someone who would get upset if I showed up half an hour late. And then, a few years later, he shows his "appreciation" by leaving his family for another woman.<P>-Sorry for ranting..<p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited October 23, 1999).]

Uh-oh. I see this turning into a guy-gal debate, men are from Mars, women are from Venus stuff. Because I see strong similarities in the way RWD's W acts and reacts and the way Nellie is coming to RWD's W's defense and the way my W reacts to the same kind of thing! Men just don't get what it is women are really trying to communicate to them.<P>You know folks? Having been through this particular issue over and over again with my W, both one-on-one and in couples counseling, I'm inclined to agree. We really don't get it. But then they don't get what we're trying to communicate to them either!<P>As usual, agree with most of what fighter says. (Are you ME in disguise, my friend!?) I'd like to add this. When my W and I were courting, for a period of about 10 months, we had no problems communicating whatsoever, because we were incredibly intimate and attuned to each other. Our first set of couples counselors worked themselves silly trying to teach us "techniques of communicating." That wasn't really the problem. By that time, it wasn't from not knowing HOW that we weren't communicating, it was because we'd lost our intimacy and weren't attuned to each other any more! Certainly, when one spouse betrays the other (like your W and mine) that complete breaks the bond of intimacy that allows you really to communicate. And it that bond is broken, it doesn't matter how many communication techniques you learn! R & B,<P>--Wex

Wex,<BR>I hope it is clear that the extent of my coming to RWD's wife defense was that I understood her desire for appreciation. It is one thing to be angry about the uneaten hotdogs, and quite another to have an affair!<P>I read in a book by Hugh and Gayle Prather that when people don't communicate, it is because at least one of them doesn't want to, that at least one of them has put up defenses and want to put distance between them. I experienced that with my H when he was still home - I remember commenting more than once that if there was more than one way he could interpret something I said, he was certain to take it in the most negative way possible. Yet sometimes, even now, we can finish each other's sentences.

The affair did not occur because you have poor communications skills. It occured because she wanted it to. She went into it with full willingness and turned her back on you and her marriage. It is a mistake to blame yourself in any way shape or form for her affair. If the commo was so bad and she wanted the marriage, she should have been dragging you to counselling.....