I found this site the other day and have found the information in it very helpful. I will try to give all the information I can that might be relevent. It is long so I won't be offended if you skip through it.

Our marriage/background: We met as pen pals she is a French citizen she was studying English and I was studying French. We dated for 2 years us both going back and forth on school vacations. She came permanently in July 08 and we were married. When she came she had a lot of homesickness and depression. Right after we were married her parents started the process of seperation and divorce, this became final in May 09. When she first got here she was not able to work or go to school until her permanent resident status was completed and had no friends or family in the US for support. At that time I worked a lot of overtime at a low paid job to try and prevent us from going into debt, other than the student loans I already had, and start saving for her to be able to go to school. A lot of times with 70+ hour weeks, I would come home just wanting to rest my mind and she would immediately want us to get out of the house, which we usally did after small resistance from me, but it was difficult for me to keep up with her conversational needs and to help her with the housework, I was able to start doing dishes and folding clothes. Around last Febuary she said that she didn't think that she loved me and she eventually stopped wearing her ring. She decided that she needed to get away from my family and that she wanted to move away to go to school. We chose a school 3 hours away. I was not able to get a reasonable job there and have been living with my parents 3 hours away to work to pay for school and an apartment traveling there on the weekends. She has not been very interested in sf since the first summer we were together. Last year, I think we did sf 3 or 4 times the last being in August right after she moved there have been other times we tried but she couldn't stay interested. She is now 22 and I am 24.

A: When she started school she was placed in a math class well below her level, and offered to tutor some of the students. She became friends with one of these(OM)who is 18 and they began going to parties and going to get coffee often. She would do this even on the weekends the only days that I saw. When this began, I could see that it was not a good path to follow and many times would retreat into a 'cave', which would usally make her start feeling guilty, but than she would say that if I act upset that it was going to push her towards people who are happy.
One Sunday morning after she went to a party and stayed overnight I got angry and was punching the floor until after my knuckles were bleeding. When she finally came home around 10am I did not say anything and she saw that I was mad she asked me to lay down near her and I calmed down. That Monday night I wrote down all the things that bothered me about her 'friendship' with OM. I called her and calmly explained what my thoughts were. She went from upset to mad and saying I was acting as if she was already cheating on me and ended hanging up. The next morning I tried calling her once and she did not answer. Later that morning she called me several times and I did not answer. She began leaving messages crying saying she was sorry for hanging up and needed to speak with me. I ended calling her and speaking with her. The next Friday, I think the first weekend of November she told me that the night before she had taken a lot of pills to hurt herself because she cheated on me.
She later was going to France for the winter break and she said that she thinks we should spend time with other people, maybe I should talk to someone on the internet, but she did not want to divorce because she feared making a mistake because she keeps making bad decisions that hurt her more... I said that I am not interested in speaking to someone, her saying you should see how it makes you feel it really makes me feel good to have 'friends' to talk to. And if I didn't agree that she would stay in France. I said I would not agree to that but I would accept it for us to have a chance to continue. While we were in France we talked some about cheating and she asked if I thought what she did was cheating on me. I said yes most people would atleast consider that an emotional affair even without kissing, she was upset that I considered what she had been doing cheated(I guess forgetting that she had already called it that herself). I asked her several times about us going to counseling and she would say that her parents went through that and it did not help them. I've tried encouraging her to go talk to someone about how she was feeling, that a lot of people feel down and it can be helpful to talk to someone about it, but she would not.
At the end of January I told her I was not going to cry anymore and I don't want to keep feeling that pain and have been working more towards my protecting my own interests and improving myself. I think I may have ADD and had an appointment with a psychologist for an assessment yesterday the 24th(The psychologist just called she diagnosed me as AD/HD Inattentive).

D-Day: Last week she had been more depressed than before. On last Sunday we had an induction to go to for her in an honor society. I went to the dresser to get some clothes before I took a shower she was standing in front of it and I put my hand on her side she said please don't. So, I turned around and started walking away. She came to me crying and said she should not have said that and she wanted to be close to me. I said that I try a lot to be close to her and she 95% of the time pushes me away. She to keep trying she just needs to get used to it again. I said I needed to take my shower I go to the bathroom and she goes in there still crying I want for us to be closer her. I said I try all the time and it is hard to keep trying to touch her when I don't know when she will push me away. That I can't even touch her arm without thinking that. I asked her what kind of relationship she wanted. If she wanted us to be intimate or to just be together and not pay attention to each other. She said I do pay attention to you. I tried my best to let her be close to me for a few minutes and then took my shower. After I got ready she complimented me on my appearance(unusual) and later I noticed she wore her ring(unusual, I thought maybe it was for the event) Later, when we were home after her event she sat down next to me and admitted to sf with OM. I asked who(same OM), when(she said the last Wednesday), and why(she said because she was feeling so down). I told her I didn't want to know any of the details. She said that doing that did not help her feel better at all and made her realize I told her I did not want her to ever see OM again. I told her I promised to try and work with her if she made a mistake and that is what I would do. She asked if I wanted to leave her I said that is not what I wanted to do. She said I can yell or say anything I wanted to her I said that there was nothing I could say that would make me feel better. For the rest of the night I let her be close to me as much as I could. I ended up sleeping somethere and waking at 1am to leave and drive back to my parents to go to work.
I called her a few times on Monday and Tuesday to check on her well being and make sure she was still going to class. When I talked to her about us she was less committed to working on things and she still needs to decide what she wants to do and we need to go over things this weekend. I asked her if she had seen OM since Sunday (yes). I asked her when (that afternoon) and where(with OM and someone else at the school making snow angels, he is a friend and they normally don't do 'that kind of thing'). I reiterated that I needed for her to not see him ever again for us to be able to work together. She said that she still needs to decide before she would be willing to not ever see him again. She said that I don't know how bad she feels. I replied that I am a part of this too.
I told yesterday some close friends at my work that I trust and I told the psychologist the psychologist and I didn't spend too much time on it. When I told her that I told my friends she asked if they called her a B and a *prostitute* I said no she said that that is what she thinks about herself. We are supposed to go over things this weekend and see if we can do some marriage building.

Question: I'm trying to put my strategy together to prepare for this weekend. I am working on my boundaries now and would like any advice on what needs to be done. Also, how forceful should I be this weekend if she is not willing to accept a boundary. Should I try with Plan A I feel I've been doing a Plan A/doormat for awhile now and don't think I would be able to keep with Plan A without an agreement on NC this weekend. I haven't exposed other than to 3 friends of mine. I think I will need to early next week if there is not a NC agreement.

Your WW is the one that needs to work on boundaries, not the BH!

Sorry you are here, but at your age with no kids, many here would say just go to plan D. I think that with her age, your hours, and her schooling, you have your work cut out for you. I would agree that you've been doing a Plan A, but it is not going to work while she is playing at school in the snow doing snow angels with the POSOM.

Gerbil, for the benefit of those of us with aged, weak eyes, could you break this into smaller paragraphs and perhaps summarize some of the points? I've tried reading this twice and found I keep getting lost.

I'm sorry you find yourself here, but there's a lot of good information, good people and good advice to be found here. You can start clicking the Articles link and start reading everything you can about Marriage Builders, the Basic Concepts and Surviving an Affair.

If you want to save your marriage, these will be crucial for the advice you'll receive.

Thank you for your response and taking the time to read all of that.I know we are not in a good situation now. When I explained to the psychologist she did not seem to optimistic about us trying to work on our marriage.

I misspoke about the boundries I meant that I'm working on what boundries I would need for her to follow for us to have a chance to work on things. Starting with no contact with POSOM.

Our current environment can change and it is probably necessary that it does. After she revealed to me the A with SF she told me that she wanted to change schools and come back to live with me and for us to get a counsler. I changed positions and rarely work more than 40 hours now so that I can drive 3 hours each way every weekend.

I don't want to become a doormat and I want to give my needs a priority and try and improve myself for myself. I also still love her and want to give us as much a chance as possible. I don't like to just give up on things. I want to work with her to meet her needs, but only if she is willing to follow the boundaries I believe are necessary and she works to meet my needs as well. Maybe, I find out this weekend, I don't know. I don't want to expect anything other than I will try. I will protect my own interest though.

Hi gerbil
I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I want to add a little which i hope will help you. My husband cheated on me last summer. It was a fairly breif affair but like you we have no children and have only been married a short time. I empathise a little with your wife feeling homesick and being 'stuck' unable to work and missing you all day and wanting to get out of the house in the evening and having no friends. this is the situation i have been in since last year. We moved to Miami from London with my husbands work and it�s been hard on me � way before he had his affair. It sounds like you have been incredibly supportive and helpful to her though and have done all you can to better the situation for her. You should be really proud of yourself for this.
When i discovered his affair i went straight on a plane home to london and cried nonstop with my girlfriends for 2 weeks, so i can imagine how you felt/feel. I wanted him to quit his job and get away from her - they work together � and for us to start our lives again afresh somewhere far far away from her and all the bad memories I now associated with Miami. I read all the advice which states over and over that absolutely ALL contact should be broken but due to our visa situation, this just has not been possible.
I think we have benefited from not doing anything drastic or reactive and sticking it out here and seeing a therapist together regularly and having a measure of stability in our lives � a big transatlantic move could undo a lot of the progress we have made. I feel for you because I�m sure he gut instinct is to �go home� like it was for me. That will make reconciliation much harder if you are not together physically.
I realize that this is not ideal, but I want to say to you that if No Contact is NOT possible there is hope for you both. My husband and I are working on our relationship and things get better every day. I HATE hearing about her and I have some dark dark moments thinking about them still working together but I feel in my heart now that she isn�t a threat and he is being honest and we ARE making this work. We have been making daily progress now for 7 months.
I wish you all the best with the ordeal that you are facing- this website has been a blessing to me and the other people on here are such a source of comfort. Stick with it. BIG hug xxx

Gerbil,

Get the book Surviving An Affair and read it, study it and learn it.

It appears that you have read here enough to have a grasp of some of the acronyms. So do you want to try to save your marriage? It will be what might be the hardest thing you ever so in your life. It can be done though and others have done it.

Read up on Plan A.

Read the thread by Longhorn on the notable posts archive forum as well as WAT's Quick Start Guide on the same forum.

If possible, I recommend that you call the coaching center for an appointment with Steve or Jennifer. Either of them can help you come up with a plan to help you save your marriage.

If you can't afford it or it isn't possible for some reason then learn about Plan A so that you can develop your own plan.

welcome to the club nobody ever wanted to join.

Mark

Sorry for the mess of the first post. I wanted to try and make sure I got as much out as I could. I've read all of the basic concepts, a lot of the articles, and most from the surviving an affair section.

Summary:

My wife came from France to marry me. We met as penpals. We lived together for a year and then she moved 3 hours away to go to school.

At school, she started EA with someone she tutored in September. I only see her on weekends. She spends some of this time with other friends including OM. She confessed kissing the OM in November said she wanted us to talk to other people.

I semi followed Plan A/Doormat and last Sunday she confessed SF with OM which she said was last week. She said this did not help her at all nd made her realize that all our problems were her fault.

I said I would like to work with her and that I did not want her to ever see OM again. She said she would do counseling with me if I wanted and move back to a school near me.

On Tuesday I talked to her and ended up asking her if she had seen OM since Sunday she said yes that had spent time with him that afternoon with another friend. That she will not agree to NC until she decides what she wants to do.

We are supposed to spend this weekend talking about things. I would like to prepare for that. I need help with what boundaries she will need to follow and how firm I need to be this weekend for her to start them before possibly starting Plan B.

Gerbil, you need to rephrase this, as it sounds too much like you are trying to control how things (meaning her) will be.

You can only control you. What you do. Your actions will speak much louder than any words you can speak.

Repeat: You CANNOT control your wife, establish her boundaries, or "make" her do anything.

Right now, you should spend this weekend on Plan A, not Plan B. Going to Plan B right now will send her straight into the arms of OM.

That she lives three hours away from the marital home is NOT a good thing. One of you is going to have to change that. She is also going to have to start NO CONTACT with OM, or you will not be in a position to recover your marriage. Again, Plan A is a precursor to Plan B. You cannot do a good Plan B without a good Plan A.

What are you willing to do to save your marriage?

Thank you, Fred

That is what I am unsure of. What should I say or ask. I don't want to demand anything right now. This weekend we are supposed to talk about things. Right now I am following Plan A I am trying to be supportive of her. I let her know I am here to talk to if she needs anything.

Right now, I think she is in severe depression. I really would like to bring her to a doctor for help and possibly getting some medication but she is resistant. She said on Sunday she might have hurt herself, but did not because she had promised me before she wouldn't. She doesn't have a lot of support around her other than OM and friends she met through OM.(I don't think any of them could be very helpful)

I want her to start NC immediately. How do I react if she refuses to make a decision and wants to keep taking her time, 'because she wants to make sure she wouldn't keep hurting me' and won't agree to NC. Do I say anything about radical honesty and joint agreement? Should I print out any material from the website? Like a summary of basic concepts and/or questionnaires. Should I ask her to get tested for an std?
Should I try to explain to her why NC is important?

What should we talk about?

Thank you pea your support and views from that angle are helpful to me. Those resources you pointed me to Mark, have also been helpful.

Here is a quote from another thread that I thought would apply in your circumstance. I know it involves building trust, but this might be a good guideline of what you might tell her your minimum requirements are:

I ended up working a lot on plan A this past weekend. I feel comfortable that we made some progress. Still a long long road ahead.

First, I ordered Surviving An Affair and His Needs, Her Needs. I hope to start reading them soon. Ok, I spent about 2 hours typing this and then the computer froze and restarted. So hopefully I can get all my thoughts out a bit more quickly and without them all being erased.

I drove the 3 hours there this weekend and we did some talking. I wrote things down on Friday night after we talked I also wrote on Saturday morning while we were talking after asking her if it would be ok. After that we moved around more and I was not able to write. I'm kind of interesed in 3rd party thoughts or advice on our mindset.

On Friday night, I asked WW what people had told her. WW said she told her older sister and a friend that lives near her and they both said that a lot of people make mistakes and that she needed to make a decision.

WW mentioned taking a practice skills test for a kinesiology class and that she had a paper test on Tuesday. I asked if the paper test was a practice test too. She started arguing over what am I talking about why am I asking her that it doesn't make sense for a paper test to be a practice test. A paper test can't be for practice. I got up and said I would go for a walk and that I would be back soon to keep on talking. She started saying I need to just get mad and yell. I said I'm not mad my head is not clear right now. She said you just need to tell me what your thinking not leave. She said I just don't understand how a paper test can be for practice. I said none of that matters it wouldn't make me deserve to be treated that way. WW said I don't know why you stay with me when I do that kind of thing to you.

I asked WW if she was interested in having a relationship with OM she said not really I like spending time with him the same as with you.

WW said she feels like she is still with me so that she won't starve but wants to make a decision for the right reasons.

She said something refering to OM as a friend. I said that she could not call him a friend now and that anytime she sees or talks to him I felt she was continuing her affair and it makes things harder on both of us. I asked her if she felt that was the truth. She said if she did she probably would not want to see anyone and just disappear.

On Saturday, WW said the decision is harder for her because the consequences of her decision would be worse for her that for me((financially, location, friends, etc) and my life would be the same just without her. I asked her if anything I have done has caused any of these consequences. She said it would be easier if she didn't care about me she would just leave.

She said sometimes she feels I only stay with her because I don't think I can find someone else. I said that I feel the opposite I know I can find someone else I choose to try to work on things with her.

I asked WW if she wanted me to write down some of the different options she considered. One that she said was to seperate for 2 months to see if we missed each other. She asked me what I thought about doing that. I said maybe in the future, but now I want to work on things with you. I asked her what she thought. She said she did not want to do that now either.

She said she thinks she would need time alone to find out what needs must be met by herself before she knows what needs to be met by someone else. Because everytime she has a boyfriend she builds her life around them and when things don't work everything is broken. She needs to build a life for herself and let someone in it if they can add to it. I said maybe you both should build a life around each other.

I asked her if I was meeting her financial needs. She said she has everything materially she could want. I meet that need well.

I asked WW about conversational need. She said that sometimes she doesn't want to talk to me. Nothing interesting. She doesn't want me to change it makes her want me even less. If we are not interested in talking about the same things we are just not meant to talk. I said I'm not wanting to change who I am maybe we can find something we are both interested in.

WW also said she is not physically attracted to me. She sees me as friend.

I asked if she would want to go with me to see a doctor about depression.. She said no I can't make that decision for her. I said I'm not trying to make that decision for her that is why I'm asking her. She said I don't want pills to make me happy so I will do whatever you want. I said I'm not interested in that I m interested in her feeling better about herself.

WW asked me if she could read what I was writing I said she can read anything she wants that I write. She asked me how my life would be without her. I said I would survive. She said she wanted more. I said I would try to find someone else to be happy with and to work on myself. I asked her the same she said she would look for a job, try to stay in school, and try to make a few close friends. She said she would still want me in her life to be her best friend becaause I know everyting about her but she knows that wouldn't be fair to me. She asked me if I would hug her for a few minutes.

I don't have time for now to write more I will write some more of what we said later that was to Saturday afternoon. Things improved overall I think later.

Ack!


The kiss of death from females. . . if the truth. all the test is smoke around the fire of truth.

Larry

Gerbil, I'm afraid it sounds as if you've married someone who has used you from the get-go to get her to your country and for FS. My suggestion is to immediately go to a DEEP, DARK, Plan B, including cutting off all financial support. You know that you're basically financing her affair AND providing a way for her to get an education. She is playing you big time by trying to guilt you into not pulling the plug. Sorry, just the way I see it. I pray I'm wrong.

Cake eating. It sounds like she wants to keep you around to finance her A. You need to let her know that you won't do that. You also can't be her buddy, her best friend, etc. You are her H. And that's that. And she also doesn't need to be alone to sort out her thoughts about what she wants to do. That's what the two of you need to work on - together. Without OM in the picture. OM is NOT her friend.

But then you know all of that

I want to make sure there is not any reason for her to stay with me unless she really wants to work on our marriage. I also, have made it very clear now and in the past that we would not continue a friendship if we divorced, it would be too hard for me to move on because I would always care about her. If I didn't it would be easy to stay around.

She later asked how that would be for permanent residence if we divorced(she is conditional for another year, then she can apply for 10 year. If she was working she would be able to file through a job. If we were no longer together. I told her that she would not need to do that she could file as someone who came and married in good faith and it did not work out. She said thank you for answering. She asked if I felt she came in good faith. I said yes I did. She started crying and said I loved you very much.

I do believe she came in good faith though. She actually gave up a lot in standard of living and also educational opportunities to come here. That may have added to her feelings. She has said before she felt like she gave up so much and did not get any happiness from it.

I feel like there is a lot of things contributing to where we are now. I think she started becoming depressed when she was here and felt she abandoned everything she had and when her parents started their divorce she became more depressed and jaded about marriage.

I was not meeting all of her needs and whenever I asked her what I could do to help her feel better or make her happy she would say things like if I have to tell you or ask you to do something I lose all appreciation for it and she wouldn't tell me. I didn't know how to meet her needs and it was frustrating because I tried extremely hard to be nice for her and it felt like she kept getting worse and worse.

As, far as actually paying for school she does that with money she brought and money that either her dad or grandmother gives her for school. Right now I pay for apartment, health insurance, and some of the groceries and gas etc.

She also asked how much an older used car that works OK might cost. I said maybe around 3000. I don't have a lot financially now and it wouldn't bother me at all to let go of all that if it helped her to leave if she wasn't committed to really working on things with me. I'm living with my parents now anyways.

I don't think she really wants to be alone. It is easy enough for her to eat cake if she wanted while I am away during the week. Now I work on Plan A and her understanding that I will not accept cake eating. If she does not make a commitment soon I will move to Plan B. If she does make a commitment one of us will have to move.