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We have yet to go over our EN and LBQs, so perhaps I'm making a bigger deal than I need to out of some irritating things. SH did tell my husband that his AOs were habits and gave him some specific feedback on breaking the habit and in the interim, minimizing the damage should he have one. I don't have as many AOs as he does, but a habit is a habit..the same would go for me. And I imagine, this would apply to any annoying habit, DJ, IB, LB, AO, etc.
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SH did tell my husband that his AOs were habits and gave him some specific feedback on breaking the habit and in the interim, minimizing the damage should he have one. I don't have as many AOs as he does, but a habit is a habit..the same would go for me. And I imagine, this would apply to any annoying habit, DJ, IB, LB, AO, etc. You know what? My H stopped his lifelong habit of angry outbursts in one day. Dr Harley told him he should "go to anger management classes" and it shocked the hell out of him. That was the end of that! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I doubt my husband will be as easy of a sale, but one can always hope. 
Last edited by OurHouse; 02/25/10 10:48 PM.
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I doubt my husband will be as easy of a sale, but one can always hope. I will keep my fingers crossed for you, friend!  Does Steve give you assignments? If so, are they out of HNHN?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yes, we got specific assignments. I'm not sure if they are out of HNHN or just the SH phone counsel version of Marriage Builders.
We are supposed to share the ENQ first. One is a reader, one is a listener. He gave us very specific instructions for each role. The reader is giving out the information and the listener is taking it in. The listener can ask for additional information if more is needed for complete understanding but can not criticize, defend, or otherwise comment. We switch off roles until all 10 needs are covered. (starting at #1 need). We are allowed to take breaks if we feel we are wandering off course.
Then a day or two later, we do the same thing with the LBQ. The additional instruction included having the reader read in a flat voice...keeping emotion out.
We are not to try to solve the world's problems with these exercises. We are only sharing what's on the EN and LBQs. Then we talk to Steve again. I suspect at that point, he will help us figure out a plan to meet each other's top ENs and stop the LBs. And if there is any dissension among the rank and file (us), I'm sure he'll whip us into shape.
I love the way he refers to each of us as "your teammate".
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First irritation on my part though. I will have to be the intiator of getting a time scheduled for this. Otherwise, I think my H would just let it.....drift.
I should just get over myself in this regard. Though at some point, I should probably share with him that I was irritated. This is where MB gets really hard!
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First irritation on my part though. I will have to be the intiator of getting a time scheduled for this. Otherwise, I think my H would just let it.....drift. Thanks for the explanation. I really like that method! We just exchanged our questionaires but I like your method better. With the scheduling, I ask my H to do it and he has been sitting down working it out every Saturday night. [we use the UA weekly worksheet] But i had to ask him to do it the first few times. Now he is just doing it and seems to really get into it. He wrote "have sex" under activity planned for every day, though. 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Second trick is to learn that they'll do it again, with someone else, unless they learn how to protect compatibility to begin with. So it will be a repeated problem in their life, no matter who their partner is, unless they address it in themself. I totally disagree with this. I think many of us like the MB ideas because we want a marriage of being in love with our spouse for a lifetime. But lots of folks don't want this, they want other things more. Any they have every right to have another preference instead. I hope MB becomes more popular, so more folks can know what to look at before we get married.
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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RE: religious differences... Introduction: When something is so important to a spouse that it takes precedence over the other spouse's feelings, the marriage is in trouble. I've witnessed this in case after case regarding children, friends, relatives, careers, finances and a host of other priorities that come between a husband and wife.
For example, it's common for a woman to consider her husband's feelings a top priority -- until her first child arrives. From that moment on, many women place the interests of her child above the interests of her husband, a formula for marital disaster. The same thing can happen when a friend or relative's feelings are more important than a spouse's feelings. Or when a career, or a house, or a recreational activity or anything else is more important. A marriage suffers when anything causes one spouse to neglect the feelings of the other.
Religion is no exception. If the believer ignores the feelings of his or her spouse to follow the religious teaching, the marriage will become the victim of conversion. And: But couples with both good and bad marriages can face a genuine conflict of faith. In some cases, they begin marriage with the same faith, and then one becomes converted to another faith. In other cases, they begin marriage with conflicting religious beliefs.
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I had a question about what OH and ML said, but started a new thread on ENQ and LBQs rather than divert this one.
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Personality traits: You were born with instincts that are there to help you survive. Instincts are behavioral patters that do not seem to be learned -- they occur in almost finished form the first time they are triggered. It's obvious that babies have a variety of instincts because they do many of the same things, such as sucking their thumbs, that weren't taught to them. But even as adults, we have more instinctive behavior than we realize, and much of this behavior will make or break a marriage. And: Even complex social skills are habits learned through repetition. Conversation, for example is perfected through considerable practice, as is affection, admiration, and even honesty. And: We can't change our instincts, but we can short-circuit their approach to a problem. If I have an instinct to have angry outbursts, it doesn't mean that I must actually have one. I can create new habits that prevent me from losing my temper. Bad habits are hard to replace with good habits, especially when they are driven by instinct, but it can be done. And, in marriage, it must be done if it is to be successful. And: In my study of what it takes to build Love Bank accounts, I learned that habits were much more important to consider than isolated instances of behavior. From: Instincts and Habits in the Basic Concepts of this website.
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Second trick is to learn that they'll do it again, with someone else, unless they learn how to protect compatibility to begin with. So it will be a repeated problem in their life, no matter who their partner is, unless they address it in themself. I totally disagree with this. I think many of us like the MB ideas because we want a marriage of being in love with our spouse for a lifetime. But lots of folks don't want this, they want other things more. Any they have every right to have another preference instead. I hope MB becomes more popular, so more folks can know what to look at before we get married. It also sounds like a finger pointed outward rather than inward, which is not the point of Marriage Builders.
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I am not sure it is all about "wants". Much of it is about fear. Most of the things I don't do are out of fear. Even when I know it would probably be good for me in the long run to overcome my fear and do them. I think many people are too afraid to implement MB, because it would require them to change. For many of us change is terrifying. Even when our present situation is not pleasant.
Which goes back to the original point. We CAN cause emotional changes in our partners through our behavior. However, we cannot control WHAT change we trigger. Treating our partner "better" can trigger fear and withdrawal rather than love units.
Because emotions are not rational. And this is not Newtonian physics where reactions are determinable. It is quantum mechanics, where everything is stochastic.
When you can see it coming, duck!
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Second trick is to learn that they'll do it again, with someone else, unless they learn how to protect compatibility to begin with. So it will be a repeated problem in their life, no matter who their partner is, unless they address it in themself. I totally disagree with this. I think many of us like the MB ideas because we want a marriage of being in love with our spouse for a lifetime. But lots of folks don't want this, they want other things more. Any they have every right to have another preference instead. I hope MB becomes more popular, so more folks can know what to look at before we get married. It also sounds like a finger pointed outward rather than inward, which is not the point of Marriage Builders. We're applying too much context to this idea, folks. Yes, unless a person learns to do the things that will prevent compatibility from being destroyed over time and learns to do things that stop the love from being destroyed with it, they are very likely to keep repeating the process again and again no matter who the spouse is that they are with. Yes, MB requires that we each look at ourselves and control our emotional reactions through logic and thinking about our spouse before we act and do damage to the relationship. So it does require that we look inward. But it is not gazing upon one's navel. Within the context of MB we most certainly can point out those things in our spouse that cause us to be unhappy. Sort of what the LBQ is for. The point of MB is to have a marriage that is happy and fulfilling to both of us. But how we inform our spouse of a problem with his or her behavior is also critical. Which I think is where we get the context being applied to this. Mark
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Which goes back to the original point. We CAN cause emotional changes in our partners through our behavior. However, we cannot control WHAT change we trigger. Treating our partner "better" can trigger fear and withdrawal rather than love units. huh? Ok, I had to read this 3 times and I am still not sure what it means, but using this program CORRECTLY should trigger love, not fear. For example, when you complete the EN form you TELL your spouse how to trigger the greatest feelings of LOVE. This is not done by chance. If a certain action on my part causes my spouse �fear� or �withdrawal� then he would tell me right away so I can stop doing it. This is not a crap shoot, hold. The idea is to spend your energy on finding ways for something TO WORK, rather than wasting time finding ways for something to NOT WORK.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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We're applying too much context to this idea, folks.
Yes, unless a person learns to do the things that will prevent compatibility from being destroyed over time and learns to do things that stop the love from being destroyed with it, they are very likely to keep repeating the process again and again no matter who the spouse is that they are with. Agree. If a person doesn't learn how to resolve conflict in one marriage, they won't know how to do it in the second, third, ect...
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Of course the reluctant spouse is not happy to give up their IB. The *trick* is for them to learn that this incompatibility that they are complaining about was self-inflicted. They created incompatibility with their IB. Second trick is to learn that they'll do it again, with someone else, unless they learn how to protect compatibility to begin with. So it will be a repeated problem in their life, no matter who their partner is, unless they address it in themself. Same point: Yes, unless a person learns to do the things that will prevent compatibility from being destroyed over time and learns to do things that stop the love from being destroyed with it, they are very likely to keep repeating the process again and again no matter who the spouse is that they are with. Which is why it is good to practice MB skills without expecting immediate reciprocation: the attitude of serving your marriage improves yourself, makes you a better person, more understanding of what is going on, and a better example to your children, as well as your spouse, and it makes you feel better even when your needs are ignored or your feelings abused.
Me: 61
Dear Wife: 58
Married: 35 years
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[Which is why it is good to practice MB skills without expecting immediate reciprocation: the attitude of serving your marriage improves yourself, makes you a better person, more understanding of what is going on, and a better example to your children, as well as your spouse, and it makes you feel better even when your needs are ignored or your feelings abused. You do know that Dr Harley does not believe in meeting needs without reciprocation except as a very short term tactic? Doing so does not make me a better person, it makes me a bitter, unhappy person that affects all areas of life if it goes on too long. Plan A, for example, is only to be used very short term. Three to four weeks for women and up to six months for MEN. Giving a spouse �unconditional love� with no expectation of return is destructive to both partners and leads to unrealistic expectations of entitlement. Dr Harley has written numerous articles warning about this type of marriage in his unconditional love series. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2264786#Post2264786
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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If a certain action on my part causes my spouse �fear� or �withdrawal� then he would tell me right away so I can stop doing it. This is not a crap shoot, hold. If my wife says she has a big need for FS, that can trigger huge fear in me. Fear of failure. Performance anxiety. I fear I will never be able to earn enough to satisfy her need for jewelry, vacations, etc. If I tell her abut my fear, is she her need for FS going to disappear? Hmm, no that is the wrong angle. You are talking about behaviors, not ENs. OK, think I got one. My wife knows I have a high need for SF. I know she has a high need for FS. She likes fancy clothes, vacations and jewelry. Normally, she enjoys receiving those items. However, if she senses that I am providing those items in an attempt to pressure her to engage in sex, then receiving those items might trigger fear and withdrawal in her. Sometimes, it can be difficult for me to determine in advance whether giving her a gift will deposit love units or be seen as a love buster. Hence my statement that the process is not as deterministic as often protrayed. Now, MB would say "use Radical Honesty so she can communicate what behaviors you do that cause her to think that the earrings you gave her for her birthday were an attempt to pressure her for sex. Then POJA how you can behave in the future so she does not perceive that you are pressuring her for sex." Easier said than done. I am not sure that my wife could have pointed out specific behaviors that caused her to think I was doing something "to get in her pants". There was an amorphous cloud of "he wants sex" hanging in the air. It has been (to me) a long time since I last pushed her for sex. I think if you asked her she would say she feels constant pressure to engage in sex. I think if I changed my behavior and became more successful at work and did a much better job of meeting her need for FS, she would feel enormous pressure to perform sexually. She might well react to my work success by feeling fear. Does that mean I should stop trying to succeed at work? Like I said, for those of us with psychological issues this stuff is not deterministic. The answer is for us to heal our inner issues before we work on the marriage. Then MB can become more deterministic.
When you can see it coming, duck!
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This is where it gets confusing though ML. Because we are supposed to focus on what we can control (our own actions and behaviors) and not controlling that of our spouses. Harley has a plan to address this, but I found it a complex situation and I'm only beginning to get my arms around it. (actually, it's pretty simple in theory; more difficult in practice).
My understanding is this:
1. Focus on what we can control: ourselves, our thoughts, our actions, our behaviors without expecting tit-for-tat from your spouse.
2. Protect your teammate from harm. Sometimes it seems that these two are in direct conflict with each other.
BUT
3. In protecting your spouse/teammate from harm, you are signing up to eliminate those actions that hurt him/her. And you are totally in control of choosing to do that.
So I guess that does go back to number 1.
If one spouse is reluctant, then I think you do have to put your taker on hold while you do the things under your own control. At some point though, you have to decide when to take the bull by the horns and bring your taker back into the picture. For some, that's Plan B with/without an affair. For some, it's similar to what I did: file D papers and withdraw from the marriage until the spouse agreed to MB counseling.
I'm sure there are other ideas out there. But sitting around , complaining and criticizing one's spouse, expecting sympathy and taking no action is NOT going to work. That earns you some well deserved 2x4's on this forum!
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