How do I say "I'm hurt that you had this discussion with me without being open and honest about your feelings. Instead of telling me that you absolutely wanted me to be with you for the weekend after our anniversary, you let me think we could discuss the possibility of seeing my brother and sister's families that weekend. Then you told me that I was hurting you for considering that possibility. Why weren't you up front with me in the first place? How come the only way to avoid hurting you is to read your mind?"

I think responding to her statement as...

"I feel like I walked into a trap you set. I often feel this way when I'm focused on pleasing you. I can get how you heard me excluding you and not asking if your feelings had changed about my family and that you did want to be at the dinner. I don't get how you assume explicitly what I SHOULD say and then say you're hurt when that's not how I responded. I'm still coming at you from love and I don't think you're doing the same. I think sometimes you're looking for me to hurt you, exclude you, so that's what you hear.

I don't believe right now that you trust me to consider you first, to act like the marriage isn't the most important priority. And I'm thinking of ways I set a trap for you, too. Tell me if I do this, too, okay?"

What I do see, markos, is that she keeps connecting. No, she isn't as O&H as you want...and you may want her to be explicit (as she wants you to be) and neither of you are there yet. What I do see is both of you striving for it, connected and working out the kinks.

Again, very hard in email...and you're still doing it. Part of the spouse set up keeps communication off balance and misunderstandings abound. You can't clear all of it...just your half. You can state what you assume is obvious--that you want her happiness as much as your own. That your FOO does not rank higher than your marriage.

She's doing well telling you when she hurts and why. Don't take it to mean automatically that you're hurting her. Listen to what she's really saying--her own expectation hurt her, 'k?

Don't treat her like glass...she's your equal. She's an amazing, capable woman. Which is why you're changing how you do your half of perceiving, communicating. Share with her your own set ups...your own traps...like hearing her mean you shouldn't have an opinion (that's your extreme from your hurt)...reading LH's responses to you...do you honestly believe that when you feel hurt, that she's doing so maliciously, with intent?

That would be like HER assuming you were trying to leave her alone, abandon her. You're not and she isn't, either. Cut yourselves some slack...you're both full of wounds which you are now acting to healing...takes time, has hot spots, scabs and scars. When you really look at what hurts you in her, you'll find it in you.

Only you can stop doing that to her...as soon as you do, you won't feel so hurt by her stuff...you'll know it's really hers.

LA

? That's definitely not what she wants.

Now, finally, I start to figure it out:

Originally Posted by me

Did you feel like this whole conversation was about whether I loved you, or my family, more?

Originally Posted by she

yes

Originally Posted by me

I had no idea that that is what this meant to you.

A little later:

Dammit, I want credit for the fact that I was taking her feelings into account from the beginning. I don't want to be treated as if I was trying to force may way and do something that would hurt her, no matter what. I'm sick and tired of sacrificing my feelings and sentiments to please her in the short term and not getting recognition of that fact and consideration and any benefit of the doubt, or even enough attention paid to what I'm saying to notice that I love her.

Excuse my frustration, but it's absolutely unfair.





What's the point of talking if I won't be listened to? Why do I get so much grief that I'm not listening to her? Why are my opinions always wrong?

How do we move to being able to really brainstorm and negotiate to solve our problems? It doesn't feel like brainstorming when someone can say "you're not allowed to even mention that possibility."


Okay, so I should treat it like she just said "You going is unacceptable to me." That would have been fine.

So now, how do I dig out of the hole?

More apologies from me, with none from her? Again?

I am incredibly pissed off and in a mood to do nothing other than demand that she talk to Steve Harley with me.

It's probably a good thing she's asleep.

Hopefully I'll feel better in the morning; I know I'm not possessed of a very winning attitude right now.

Do I maybe need to tell her "Look, we can't work on anything serious (like issues with my family, and a list of other things we can't resolve) until we get some help"?

Seems to me you have that backward. Short term, you need to tell your family to be more respectful to your wife, and that you won't be seeing them much until you patch things up with her. Hopefully, they will understand. Long term, after you reconnect to your wife, you can work on getting back together with the family. If you want to at that point.

But I don't see how you are going to get on the same page with your wife while your family treats her poorly and you tolerate that and seek to spend time with them. Your wife is right. As between her and your family, you are choosing not to rock the boat with them. At her expense. How exactly is that showing your love and dedication to her?

Without knowing all the details, I fail to see how you could conclude that she is treated poorly. She, they, and I all have unique perspectives on that.

The POJA would suggest that we do nothing here until we can agree on it.

Dad has been told where to shove it. Main issue is no apology has ever been forthcoming. There are additional issues, but my family is neurotic, not hateful.

I've screwed up a lot of stuff. I sure don't need to assassinate more relationships in my life.

I've sacrificed everything else for my wife, including moving two hours away from my family. I see them about four times a year now. My children barely know them.

I'm waiting, waiting, waiting, for the day when my wife and I can discuss this as equals and without requiring sacrifice of each other.

Looks like that'll never happen, huh?

Dammit.

Oh Markos,

Do not despair!

I think it must be very hard to avoid getting upset JUST AT THE VERY MOMENT you are making a breakthrough for her.

I know she is not "playing fair" (though I maintain that most people begin to play more fair when they feel safe over time).

You GOT it, you GOT while she is upset. So she may not be giving you verbal credit, but do not underestimate what it means to her.

Based on what she's said, it seems completely obvious to me that she does NOT want you to spend that weekend with your family.

So if it's really important to you to go, you have to negotiate with her and practice POJA.

This is where taking a pen and paper into the kitchen with her would help--and you brainstorm together.

"OKay, you want to feel as important to me as my family. Right now, you seem to feel that me celebrating the ____ family birthday's on the weekend as our anniversary is going to make you feel bad. Even though you're not saying it, I get the feeling you want me to make big plans with you.

Honey, I really care about how you feel, and if we can't come up with an arrangement that you feel good about, then we'll just do something together."

Then you brainstorm TOGETHER.

1) You celebrate in a big way over the whole weekend.

2) You celebrate on one day and make the trip to your family together on another day.

3) You celebrate with W on one day and you m ake the trip by yourself.

4) You tell your family that you can't come at all.

5) You guys go away the weekend before or after to celebrate your anniversary,a nd then go to dinner the night before.

6) You figure out some way to attend together, but work out an arrangement so that if your wife is unhappy you will leave together.

7) Your wife stays home and you go.

8) Your wife goes to see HER family that weekend.


*Do you see where I'm going here? SHe has given you enough information to know where you stand currently. I understand why you feel resentful, and you will remain resentful and terribly ticked off unless you negotiate with her.

You can do this, Markos.

Look, I get the feeling that this young woman has NO EXPERIENCE coming to an agreement that makes both people happy--both YOU and HERSELF.

This can be a cool opportunity to practice POJA together, and end up feeling GREAT.

markos, your conversation still looks like you're badgering her. Please take a look at the article I posted for OurHouse. And read OH's posts if you want to see what your wife is feeling like, feeling cornered into in conversations she doesn't want to be in, instead of able to share conversations she does want to have.

I'm not saying you or your wife is right and one is wrong or anything like that. I think you both are on the side of your marriage, and actions are either effective in that direction or ineffective. I think these conversations are ineffective, both of you are left feeling worse. What do you think?

I have distanced myself from my FOO quite a bit to try to make my marriage work. My family understood, didn't feel slighted. They knew it's just for a season. It was something I had to do for myself anyway; I was too involved. Not saying that's what and your family needs, just sharing my own experience. I trust you can find the balance there.

Whatever the solution is, it probably didn't involve waking her up and talking to her for an hour in the middle of the night about the despair I feel.

What on earth is wrong with me?

Now she does feel berated, and with good reason...

Why is this?


Markos, again I'm going to say this as simply as I can SLOW YOUR ROLL. Dude your cycling on the pattern over and over again. You seem to grasp a little, work it, and when a step is taken backwords go all crazy and get off track, which causes more things to get off track. Next will be the end of imediate conflict and back on the cycle until the next step back. The challenge here is not to never have a step backwards because those are unavoidable but to change how you deal with them and get away from the cycle. Cause if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got because nothing ever changes if nothing ever changes.

First and foremost, you say that you're wife, the woman whom you've pledged your love and devotion to is "extremely upset" with your family. Those are extreme words you used. Knowing she's "EXTREMELY" upset with them you wanted to incorporate an Anniversary in with seeing the family she's EXTREMELY upset with. An anniversary is a celebration of y'alls marriage and love and you want that event to fold into a day of spending time with people she's EXTREMELY upset with.... Can you see how that would make her feel like she isn't a prioity in your life that you'd even choose or suggest that?

Sure you can feel baited or whatever you want but I've got to tell you that partner seeing the family on your anniversary weekend is NO WIN SITUATION. Personally, I can't even believe you brought it up. IMHO you missed a million Love Deposits by not simply choosing her, making her feel important to you.

And I can't buy that I was trapped thing, you are not a victim. If you deal with this whole situation as a victim, you are dealing with it from a weak perspective. You weren't trapped, you were presented with an opportunity to communicate and you didn't. Are you trying to tell me that knowing your wife was EXTREMELY upset with your family didn't pop into your mind during this conversation? Of course it did, you knew. And whoever said it before was exactly right, if you want her to be comfortable around your family (AKA if you want to see your family) that needs fixed short term, not long term. Taking the kids up there by yourself is not a good solution, it's conflict avoidance. IMHO if someone isn't a friend of my wife, they aren't my friend, we're a package deal.

Dude and then the middle of the night thing..... No No No No No No NO.... Come on man, you're better than this. You know more than this. I'm sorry man but that's on you "I want what I want when I want it and I want it now". To many "I's" in there bro. Now come on and focus.

Yeah, forget my posts.

I'm with LH.

:-)

They are unable to allow us to be grown up and make our own mistakes without constantly warning us about all the bad and horrible decisions we are making.

She feels completely judged around them. All kinds of innocent actions have come back to haunt us as "evidence" that something is wrong, or evidence that she's a terrible wife, etc.


Yes. You are exactly right.


No I didn't. I had no idea my wife had any expectation of an anniversary celebration that day, and nothing I proposed for that day was intended to be an anniversary celebration. All I proposed was a pleasant day out. I never said anything about it being an anniversary celebration.

Our last discussion of the subject concluded with her apparently ruling out a trip as unlikely due to not being able to get babysitting, asking me what I wanted, me proposing some things for a romantic night at home, and her never responding. The last thing I knew was that I'd proposed something to do for our anniversary, on our anniversary.

Well I don't think I'd want to go into that enviroment either. I definately wouldn't take my wife into an enviroment like that unless I was prepared to stand by her and up for her.


I don't want to spend time argueing or going to far backwards as that really isn't benificial to where you are today but this just isn't holding water for me, it doesn't pass the smell test you know. I fully understand that your last discussion on the Anniversary didn't come up with a conclusion that's where I like to use the CSD rule (CSD = Common Sense Dictates). Common sense dictates that one your wife's anniversary she wants to feel loved, cherished, chosen, and all those good things. She wants to be woo'ed. You don't need a map, a conversation, a discussion, or anything else, common sense simply dictates that. So how do you achieve that?

Would a night out, followed by a trip to the family leave her with those feelings? Again, common sense would say heck no.

Would a night out, followed by you leaving to be with the family leave her with those feelings? Again, common sense would say heck no and it would likely leave her feeling abandoned.

So what can you do for you anniversary to invoke those loving feelings for your wife? I know for me, I love it when my wife feels loved. I love it when she feels cherished. I love it when she feels chosen. Because when I do something to invoke those feelings in her, my return is ten fold. Here's what I'd do and what we do. We make our anniversaries a weekend event. Further, we switch off years on who does the planning. Last year, my wife simply knew not to make any plans for the weekend. She didn't have to worry about the kids, I took care of it. She didn't have to worry about where we were going, I took care of it. As a matter of fact the only thing she had to worry about was when I told her what she needed to pack about 2 hours before we left. The year before I was the one with no worries. When that happened I felt woo'ed, wanted, desired, loved, cherished, chosen, and important. Those are the feelings I wanted my wife to feel this last year and I must say, I delivered. You can do something like that.

No. You proposed a day with people your wife is extremely upset at. You proposed a day with people who are extremely judgmental and share their complaints with your wife. I don't imagine your wife views that as a "pleasant day out". I imagine she views it as a day of torture. Which was why she reacted negatively to your suggestion.

Let's go to the park, just the two of us, could be a pleasant day out. Let's go visit MY family where you can be stressed and harassed all day is not a pleasant day out for her. And, if you love her, shouldn't be a pleasant day for you either.

Disclosure: when things were really bad between me and my wife. Huge overspending, lying, no sex , weight gain, etc. My family was pretty down on Mrs. Hold. And they let her know it. At that time, I would suggest we celebrate occassions like the kids' birthdays with them. And she would grit her teeth and endure it. I was not in love with her then. My Taker was raging. So I didn't care whether she enjoyed being with my family. I figured I wasn't getting any sex and I was paying off all the debt she ran up and she could darn well suck it up and deal with my parents for a few hours so they could see their grandkids on their birthdays. She put up with it for the kids. Not for me.

Now that things with my wife are somewhat better. Not where I wish they were. But better. My family treats her better. But I ask Mrs. Hold if it is OK to schedule famnily events. Actually, she mostly schedules them herself with my Mom.

Point is, I know how easy it is to rationalize that "they are my family and they aren't that bad so why can't she just calm down and go with the flow." But in reality, you should be telling your fmaily that this is your wife and they better clean up their act and treat her well or they won't be seeing you or your kids any time soon. Anything less is not protecting your wife. Which see will quite correctly see as not very loving.

Your wife has been horrible to your marriage, markos. You know she has. Doesn't make them right in their judgments nor wrong...

makes two humans (you both) in this very human marriage, NOT trying to learn and grow together, to take what they need and leave the rest; means that something your family has said to your wife hit her deep button...and she rejects them. It's her button...they only have opinions. You control the valve to half the closeness, markos, with your FOO...not all. They own their half.

Love is being willing to pursue with your spouse their pain and not constantly seek to soothe, avoid, make better. That's enabling and I hear you're mad at yourself when you see yourself doing that. I think it's because you've been that way before...peace at all cost.

First we gotta get back to the point where you guys can go through conflict, find the buttons, help each other to see inside yourselves...and so your actions, your choices, matter greatly to get there.

Not gonna be this way forever, markos. Just for right now. And when you begin to resent and make outlandish statements...like when is it your time to have an opinion, when is it your time to get the praise, admiration and feel loved and respected...you're literally telling yourself you won't ever get those, experience that, feel that. Not true, not even knowable.

What's real is that you're not experiencing what you want right now. That's valid and real.

Your wife is capable of working out her relationship with your FOO, with your help. Takes a lot of healthy boundary and boundary enforcements. You don't have that in your marriage right now, and only beginning with those for yourself...please listen to LH and see where eventually, when your marriage is at the point you guys are talking face to face, both following the four rules of marriage, then you work together to build a healthy bridge to each of your families...

You wouldn't take your wife to your family's if she were sick...don't take your marriage there.

Your wife is able to step up and really tell you what she's thinking, feeling...respectfully. She isn't doing that right now...however...she's giving you radical honesty in the way that says "Here's where I DJ, how I feel when I do, where I teach myself to despair and fall out of love with you."

That's intimate information, markos. Take it. Don't do what she's doing, requiring you to mindread, to appreciate and applaud her tiniest efforts...switch to valuing really knowing her, who she is, and do so with yourself. Applaud and praise yourself for your changes to your actions, beliefs and thoughts. See where when you feel rejected, when you hurt, you WANT her to make it better through magic and mindreading. It's normal, very common...understandable. Not reasonable or what you really want in your very adult marriage.

And she didn't rule out the trip...you are putting that on her. Stop. She is afraid that not being able to square away babysitting will sink the trip. Is the romantic night at home idea what you really, truly want, best wish? Or was it to assuage her fear of no babysitter?

See, she wanted to know what you wanted...check yourself...really honest about that? You want to take the whole weekend away, tucked into a B&B and stay in bed with her all weekend? You can say that...not functional, just inspirational. You won't feel rejected not getting it...don't begin POJA without your biggest wishes out there.

Here you are, standing for your marriage, and not making a big deal of the symbol of the marriage...the day you cherish because you both said yes...not based on her spoken enthusiasm or not. If you're afraid of her shooting down your fancifulness, be fanciful anyway. And tell her how much you want her to be excited and how in the past, when you've gotten your hopes up, you know how sucky it is to get them shot down. So now, you're going to dream big and use POJA so both of you celebrate who you are AND the day of your marriage.

LA

Markos, any updates? I haven't contributed before now, but I've been following your thread...

Well, I've been kind of like a rebuked dog slinking off with its tail between its legs after my screwup earlier this week. I apologized profusely to my wife for waking her up in the middle of the night and berating her.

For her part, she is really emotionally down - and of course, I can't blame her. She's being very, very open with me about her discouragement, which I'm glad about. I still don't think I'm responding in quite the ways she wants.

She told me awhile back she would go to the Marriage Builders weekend with me. But we missed the chance to go to the March weekend (that would've been just a week after our anniversary and would have made a lovely trip), so it looks like we will be going to the May weekend. However, we haven't talked about that since before Monday night.

Yesterday in telling me about her discouragement she talked about how upset she was we couldn't come to agreement on a particular issue - and I told her I wanted to, but I didn't feel like we could, and that while I felt I had a lot to learn about negotiation, the biggest emotional obstacle for me was the feeling that she didn't respect and seek to understand my point of view on these issues. She protested that she did understand my point of view, and I told her that while she might think she understood, the real issue was actions she was taking that made me feel like she didn't care or want to understand. I told her this was killing my feelings of romantic love, and as a result I didn't want to try again to settle those issues.

She told me there was no hope, because she didn't think she could be what I wanted her to be, because she felt like I have a list of rules she doesn't know.

This morning, she's offered to go to counseling with me.