I'm following this discussion with interest. First I want to say that no matter how it plays out, NED, I am hoping for the best for you and your family.

Second, I question myself frequently...is this the way to go...will this path get me/us where I want us to go? I am happy I took a stand and forced the issue re: counseling with Steve and perhaps it's just because our last appointment had to be postponed and we really have not yet had a "joint" session w/ Steve yet, nor gone over the EN and LBQs...that I'm feeling we are backsliding.

As with NED, which way H falls on the drinking issue is going to be a huge decision factor for me. I have to keep cautioning myself to be patient because we haven't addressed the issue under the guidance of Steve yet.

Not to make this thread about me...it isn't. But the drinking issue is very similar and I'm interested to see how NED has arrived at the place where she is.

Ned, there is absolutely nothing wrong with stating, "I will not remain married to a heavy drinker." Or drinker at all, or whatever your boundary is on how much alcohol consumption is okay with you. When he says that you just want him to 'live under your thumb' say, No, I just want to be attracted to you, and when you are drinking, I am not.

Jayne, you are correct, this was December 2008. To answer your question specifically, he says he doesn't know what I want from him. I want him to get a counselor that he's accountable to, so he'll learn to treat me respectfully even when he thinks I deserve to be treated poorly. I'd like him to do this for like a year. I'd like him to get a permanent local job so the kids can see him. I'd like him to get an outside accountability partner for his drinking, like an AA sponsor, so his decision to drink or not drink doesn't reflect his relationship with me. And I want him to leave me alone for like a year, because living in this environment has left my nerves shot. Do you think it would make sense to rewrite my Plan B letter to include all this? Because I see a Plan B letter as like a final love letter, "I love you to this day, and I always will, we can do this, I want this, too" not "getting back together would be full of things you wouldn't like, so why bother." I have to tell you, Jayne, I do think I've said all these things over the years. I understand the Dave Barry persona, and I think it's disrespectful for me to think H doesn't know why I'm planning to separate.

OH, thanks for being here with me. I follow your thread with interest, too. I know you had good reason to put your heart back into it, and I hope you will be one of the success stories one day soon.

cwmi, I hear you, that there is nothing wrong with stating this. We had this conversation maybe a month ago. When I say, "I just want to be attracted to you, and when you are drinking, I am not," I hear what a prude I am and how he wishes I'd never started going to Alanon, that they put these ideas in my head. Which is backwards, I went to Alanon to learn healthy ways to deal with my discomfort I already had about his drinking.

This is key. Per MB parameters, if one spouse is not enthusiastic, then the couple must reach an agreement where both are. My husband is talking to Steve but has not yet bought the concept of POJA. I think this is where MB can succeed or fail. If one spouse can not be brought on board, then how can any of the LBs be addressed? How can romantic love be sustained? The LB$ will constantly be draining.

Maybe that's what this is at it's base level, NED. Unwillingness to POJA on the part of your husband. Good for you for enforcing your boundaries.

I get similar statements: i.e., I'm not "fun" anymore, or don't want to have fun anymore, I never laugh, everything is a drag, Im so serious, etc.

Ah yes, but then...


I don't know, but I think he's being pretty clear in saying he *doesn't* know. I think it's disrespectful to NOT take his words at face value... unless there's something in the delivery, tone of voice, or something that isn't coming across through typed words.

Because he is saying, word for word, that he doesn't know.

Unless he's being sarcastic or something.





Next time he says he doesn't know why you are leaving, or what you want, how about telling him exactly what you wrote above?

NOT assume he "should" know because you've told him in the past. Not assume he should know because you wrote it between the lines in a letter. (Actually I think those assumptions are more of a DJ than assuming he doesn't know when he says he doesn't know... KWIM?)

I'm not trying to talk you out of going through with a plan that you have decided you need. I'm just feeling sad for the guy saying he doesn't know why this is happening.


Absolutely!!!


??? I don't see how you said "why bother" in the above. And I don't understand what you mean by "we can do this, I want this, too". Do you mean your PBL said "We can do this <splitting up>, I want this, too <implying he wants it>?" Or "We can do this <work things out> ..."?

IMHO, I think your PBL needs to be very very explicit. If you think you are being clear, then try to make it a couple steps even more clear. It never hurts to be even more clear than you think you need to be. It never hurts to UNDERestimate your spouse's mindreading skills.

NED, have you tried this...? Take a piece of parchment paper and write out what you wrote up in your post #7668 as follows:

1. I want you to get a counselor that you are accountable to, so you will learn to treat me respectfully even when you think I deserve to be treated poorly.

2. I want you to do this for a year and then evaluate.

3. I want you to get a permanent local job so the kids can see you.

4. I want you to get an outside accountability partner for your drinking problem, like an AA sponsor, so your decision to drink or not drink doesn't reflect or is affected by your relationship with me.

5. I want you to leave me alone for a year, and then reevaluate... because living in this environment has left my nerves shot.


Is this all of it or is there more?

Anyway, write this all out on an 8 by 11 sheet of paper and then give him one copy of it and hang another copy in the closet so he can look at it anytime he does not know or forgets why you are separating from him.

Jayne, Bubbles, I hear you both about being more specific. LA asked me that, too. What I mean about a Plan B letter is, I thought the format was like this:

I had a dream about how when we got married, how wonderful and rosy our life together would be, and it has in many ways come true

Except this one problem that is harming our marriage. I can see how my 50% contributed to this problem too.

This is what I need from you to address this problem [terms here]

Until then, I'm going to lie low. Please let me know when you are ready to work on this. I love you so much, and I want to make a wonderful life with you.

Love always,
Your spouse

What I meant is that I think if I put what I think I would need into this Plan B letter pattern, it goes from something supportive and encouraging, to something discouraging. I can see how it would make it more clear, though.

I'm not saying *don't* put the encouraging stuff in there, I'm just saying make *completely* sure you are clear about the [terms here] part... and when you think you are clear, then edit it to make it more clear... and then do that one more time.

And I wouldn't put too much of the "encouraging" stuff in there, not so much that the terms get lost or buried.

If it's too long, then it's less likely that every word will be read. Words that you agonized over, wrote and rewrote, edited and polished, will be just skimmed over.

Almost always it seems that when ppl post a PBL for folks to edit, the suggestions are to make it a lot shorter, more concise, more clear.

If you think it's clear enough for Dave Barry, then you're getting there.

If H decided not to do anything because he felt it was unclear how to save a marriage, after speaking to Steve himself, after hearing for years about how folks come back from this stuff every day, with help, then that's not because of a poorly worded Plan B letter. I will revise my Plan B letter, but it would be totally insane for me to think that he's going say, "Oh, *now* that I understand, I'll get right to work!" His actions are his to own, not based on how good I get my Plan B letter down. It's not because I didn't work hard enough, or long enough or was too unclear. Thanks so much jayne, Bubbles, for your posts, because I do feel sorry for H sometimes, too, but that's old programming, not new behavior. Reasoning this through with you all, I remember again that he has all the information he needs to build whatever life he wants for himself, and I have my own business to mind.

I have let go of the response. The Plan B letter, while I am giving it to him as well, is at heart a letter for *me*, to remind myself what I found acceptable and unacceptable to me, when I have weak moments.

I told H that I really wanted to try a separation first, not going straight to divorce, and to address his concern about being out of work, I agreed to not separate the finances during the separation. Unless something drastically changes. He's always been stable with fiances, so I'm not worried, but if anything changes, I'll have the paperwork to file. Now that we have POJA on that, he was willing to set a date, which is what I was looking for, March 31.

And I am planning to take the Plan B idea of going dark. We'll be having the kids every other week, and don't have to meet to switch. I can drop them off at school on a Monday, and H can pick them up. We can communicate through email about the kids. I am grateful to be familiar with Plan B, tools that can help folks make these transitions in ways that preserve what was left of the marriage.

So is your goal to eventually save the marriage?

No, I'm cutting my losses, but since I'm familiar with MB, I can do it in a way that also preserves what's left. With the drinking unaddressed, I can't say that I see Plan B working in my situation to create a willingness to restore the marriage, but I still feel better following a path that feels familiar.

I see it as preserving a parenting connection for the sake of your kids. In that context, what you are doing makes sense.

Hi Telly, I don't want to t/j your thread, so I came here to say, yes, I do feel so supported. I am just floating knowing that I finally have a date here. I'm feeling great about the Plan A stuff I'm still doing, and feel really confident that I'm going to be able to keep a great routine going with the kids when it's just the three of us. H and I went for a long walk this morning, with our dog, and we were like two comfortable friends, talking non-R stuff, like planning out the weekend, and about recent fun stuff going on with the kids. We were in the news yesterday!

http://cbs4.com/video/?id=92201@wfor.dayport.com

I'm the smiling lady in the purple at 00:17, and DD8 is the little girl in blue to the right of Florida Governor Charlie Christ at 00:27.

I really like how Dr. Harley's new book has sparked a real "Back to Basics" here on the board. I've got a lot to think about and chew on, and I can acknowledge, I still am deeply in love with my H. But at the same time, I can still recognize when I've gotten my ducks in a row, done what I needed to do with my 50%, and when it's time to go to plan B, to preserve what we had. I don't have to act hateful and resentful to someone to think through and understand when it's time to "call it quits."

I know it's OT, but DD14 was offered today a half scholarship to a prestigious private high school here. She is still gathering information before she decides if she'll take it (yay DD!), but I'm super-proud and honored regardless of what she chooses. Those of you who know my story, she is really big into acting, and this school is well known here for their drama program, so that'd be a big plus for her, too.

congrats to dd14! Do you have a plan for swinging the other half?

Hi Ned!

I don't know how I missed your post the other day.

I looked at the video--you are so pretty and sweet looking! I should have expected that. Someone I look at and think "I'd like to be her friend!" :-)

And your daughter, is she the one who kept digging? (lol)

I'm glad you are feeling supported. I really am. You should feel very proud of how hard you have worked on all of this.

((((Ned)))))

And congratulations to your daughter!

cwmi, I didn't have a plan for the other half. Only 20 kids get this, and more than 20 kids just from DD14's public middle school went to a free preparation their math teacher offered for the test. On DD14's testing day, there were a thousand kids there for the test, and they'd had another testing day already, too. I think I've mentioned here that I was thinking already about refinancing my 15 year mortgage for a 30 year, and we owe less than a third on it, so I could "cash out" enough for one year this fall, see whether I can set aside enough for the next year, or whether I would cash out some more the other years, too.

Telly, thanks so much. Yes, she was the one still digging, not just posing for the cameras LOL. And I do feel really proud of how hard I've worked, and how far we've come as a family.