I disagree with you, Larry. I think what you are saying is that "romantic love" doesn't last. And it CAN - the MB program has proven it to Mr. W and I. We actually have even more intense desire and "ga-ga ness" over each other than we did when we first began dating. Why? Because we are romantically in love with each other AND we also have what you are calling "true love" - the combo can't be beat. And there is no reason for people to look anywhere else but the MB program to find it.

If you work the program it works - Mr. W and I are living proof of that. And there are many others that have used the MB Program with the same result. The MB Program is backed by a 100% guarantee - If both partners implement the program they WILL fall romantically in love with each other. Seeing is believing.


No, it doesn't "just happen" - there are choices made to focus all attention and ACTIONS on the other person. It is only their perception that it "just happened"...That isn't true - I know, I lived it. The amount of focus, attention - ACTIONS that go into an affair absolutely support the premise that "feelings follow actions"....


Yes, because all of their ACTIONS were focused on this person, their feelings naturally followed.


They have become skilled in MEETING EMOTIONAL NEEDS. Focusing their actions on their target, which causes the target to also focus all of their actions on them - and ta dah - feelings follow actions!


Meeting emotional needs - especially the four intimate ones - cause the release of those chemicals.


Of course - classic rationalization and justification.


I disagree - I don't believe LvninItaly's wife is any different from the garden variety WS who rewrites history as a means to rationalize and justify their feelings for their APs. Feelings that they developed based upon focusing their actions towards the AP.


K!


What to do about it is a simple matter of both LvninItaly and his wife choosing to learn and implement the MB Program. Her stated goals of wanting to remain married and wanting to create desire have to be backed up with ACTION. That is what adults to when they desire a certain outcome - they set a goal and take the appropriate actions to achieve said goal.

Mrs. W

All you are telling him here, Larry, is that both he and his wife need to fill out an EN questionnaire, HONESTLY. It makes no sense not to be honest if indeed the goal is to remain married and create desire.

Mrs. W

I don't think that is what Larry is saying. I made a similar shorter post to yours and then deleted it because I reread Larry and discovered he was making a distinction I hadn't heard of before.

Prior to reading Larry, I would have said that "infatuation" and "romantic love" are different names for the same thing.

But I notice he is talking about two different brain reactions: one is infatuation, triggered by one particular chemical, and the other he calls true love, triggered by another chemical. So after reading the following:


I decided Larry was not saying that romantic love could not last, and I deleted my post.

Larry,

My assumption is that LvninItaly came to Marriage Builders to learn how to solve his marital problems using Marriage Builders - wouldn't you agree? Since we are here at MB and we know that MB works, why not steer him that way - instead of sending him on internet wild goose chases?

Larry did you and your ex-wife avail yourselves of any of the options for learning the MB program in it's entirety? Either the MB Weekend, the MB Online Course or the MB At Home Study Course? If so, why didn't both of you choose to implement them?

Mrs. W

I think that what Larry is calling "infatuation" is "romantic love".

Sadly, I have had an affair - I made the choice to focus all my actions on an AP - I experienced firsthand my feelings following those actions.

Mr. W and I went to the MB Weekend - We work the MB program in our lives and we experience our feelings following our actions on a daily basis.

Like I said, seeing is believing...

Mrs. W

I will note that there is no way for "romantic love" for one's spouse to feel like an affair - and THANK GOD! Reality is far more fulfilling than fantasy...

Though the feelings felt toward an affair partner are real feelings, they are not based in reality - there is no "morning breath", no shared mortgage, no sick children, no ailing or dying parents...no REAL LIFE...

Through working the MB program you eliminate annoying habits, selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, independent behavior, dishonesty - you know, all the love busters...Of course real life still exists, but when you have eliminated love busters and are meeting emotional needs - spending enough UA time with each other - practicing the PORH and the POJA - well, it just makes things really, really great...I can't say enough good things about the MB program and how well it works - I wish we had been practicing it from the very start of our marriage...Ah, hindsight...

Mrs. W

Not necessarily. Italy came here for help and may or may not have been more than vaguely aware of Harley's methods. It is up to us to sooner or later steer him that way as he is, sooner or later, able to absorb that so doing is in his best interest and the best interest of the marriage. Sometimes that route means the hammer and sometimes some other form of persuasion.

And of course Mrs. W. Please note that I specifically requested that others chime in with their points. I wanted additional voices explaining to Italy the whys and whats and possibilities. I made sure to provide many, many opportunities for others to add to what I was saying and to also disagree if they wanted. And more important, I don't think I know everything about relationships and I value what other people have to say, especially when I could be off base.

It is my opinion that a number of posts from many different people is one of the key strengths of this forum. Each of us has something to contribute, effectively. And as you know, I am a big believer in the example that you and Mr. W. have set both in terms of your personal recovery and your willing help on these forums. In large part, my wife and I followed right along with you and Mr. W. In the fullness of time, you guys made it and we didn't.

This isn't the place for me to go into a lot of detail about my own situation. The short version is that after four years of recovery that could never get past 98%, I wanted out. This is not an uncommon happenstance. In many ways, I still provide a safety net for her and I probably always will. I will leave the rest for another day and another thread. Even with the road map that Harley provides and I totally believe in that road map, some make it like you and Mr. W and others don't for whatever reason, like me and my ex. Yet the experiences that my ex and I had with Harley's teachings has left us with a bank of feelings for each other that will likely never go away.

If you want to review my recent posts, you will see that I have been very active sending people to Steve Harley and the counseling center. I will continue to do so.

In my mind, there is nothing inconsistent between what I have discovered about brain chemicals driving certain states of affection and Harley's teachings. In fact, from what I have learned and observed, Harley's methods are entirely consistent. I have said so many times and will continue to.

In the situation with Italy, I think he needs a short course in how to project confidence. Concurrent with that, he and his wife need a joint effort to learn and practice what Harley teaches. If they can afford it, and not everyone can, they need to take advantage of either of the opportunities available for those who cannot reasonably attend a retreat.

And of course, taking the course will help Italy with projecting the confidence I think he has inside or I would be going a different route with some of the stuff I say to him.

Thanks for chiming in Mrs. W. Italy needs all the help he can get and that means way more than one or two of us can provide. The more "I agrees," and the "Here is another point of view," we get on the forum, the better it is. We all take turns being the can opener and the content examiner, if you get my drift.

At the same time, this is clearly a forum for helping folks understand Harley's teachings and that is the base line for the advice given. Please allow me to observe that of late, I have noticed that more and more therapists are starting to use Harley's dogma in their practice and THAT is a very good thing. And his latest book is a very good read.

Larry

Of course.


My research says otherwise. And I have the references. But that said you can call it whatever you like so long as you use Harley's methods to get to the higher plane of a more mature and long lasting love. I say that for two reasons: this forum is supported by Harley and is designed to promote his methods and two, I am completely unaware of any other program that has as consistent a result.

A lot depends on the age of a person. From the perspective of a teenager, lasting love is often two weeks.

Larry

I guess I am just confused by your looking at LvninItaly's WW's history rewrite as something other than typical garden variety WS stuff, Larry...Along with the segues into "infatuation"..."good catch"..."go search on's...", "women like men that treat them poorly", etc....When the answer that LvninItaly seeks is right here on MB..."Can sexual desire be created?" YES! By he and his wife falling romantically in love with each other, which is what the MB program teaches...

Mrs. W

The "Good Catch" bit is not a rewrite, IMHO. It is a reality for far too many couples. He and his wife may now be ready for MB. Leave us hope so. You are the perfect advocate. By all means, keep telling Italy what he needs to hear. I will back you up.

Larry

ok, I have not read all the posts here, and maybe I don't fully understand the discussion, but this last comment jumped out at me. Larry, I am infatuated with my husband of 10 years. We have been in ROMANTIC LOVE for several years. We rushed home from our dinner date last night and started ripping our clothes off before we even got out of the garage. He was blowing me kisses across the restaurant table last night. I have recieved 4 naughty texts from him today, in addition to 3-4 phone calls. [sorry, TMI, but I wanted to correctly convey the situation]

Our feelings for each other are stronger NOW than they were when we were dating. The feelings have enhanced tremendously using this program and I have actual PROOF of this because we take the love bank inventories that measure this very thing.

Most of the people who have implemented this program have experienced the same thing. That is the GOAL of the program and it is very successful when both partners get on board. Dr Chalmers talks about this in this article here I think most counselors don't even believe that feelings like that are possible in marriage, but they are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

In order for someone to be considered a "good catch" for me, they would have to be attractive - desirable - "relationship worthy", and all that jazz etc. TO ME...Otherwise they would just be a "good catch" for someone else...

We're cool, Larry - no worries...

Mrs. W

Ok Mel.


That is an absolutely correct statement. On the other hand, more and more therapists have discovered Harley and are moving in his direction.

A guy by the name Turtle calls it vintage love. And even he hasn't discovered the full potential, nor has Robert Friar, who has uncovered the brain chemicals responsible for the feelings.

What I believe is that Harley's methods enhance the development of oxytocin in both male and females and a low level of PEA that is sustainable. The combination, IMHO, yields exactly the kinda thing you were describing. There are some other hormones involved as well.

Without question, phenylethylamine (PEA) is THE major brain chemical inducing infatuations. Look it up. And PEA induced infatuations are not always a good thing. Nature's joke.

I wanted to know WHY Harley's methods were so good. I accepted that they were, based on RESULTS, I just wanted to know WHY. So I did my research, which was difficult five years ago, and as time has gone on, more information became available. I read it all. What I discovered explained a lot, at least for me.

The problem is that with infatuation PEA, it goes POOF after a while. Harley's methods allow for a sustainable version that is a combination of more than a couple of brain chemicals that are gonna stay with you so long as they are cultivated.

Larry

Wow this tread is really taking off!

Through our conversations with Steve and our conversation between the two of us she has said on many occasions that she wants to stay married but she wants that sexual desire she had with AP for me. She is worried that is she never feels that way for me than she will not be fulfilled in our marriage.

The problem is two areas of the MB program she is stuck on. She is having a hard time filling my need for affection and SF. She will give me quick kisses and hugs, we cuddle at night but that is as physical as our relationship has been in six months. There has been no SF between us for six months. She said that she is capable of the act of Sex but that she doesn't know if it would feel right.

I think she is waiting for feelings to come and then she would act.

Steve told her that she needs to work on the four intimate ENs and the program would work. So the point that we are at is being stuck because she is waiting for the feelings.

Larry thank you for all your posts and insight you sound like you have done a lot of reading about the Harley's and other ideas out there. I will say that I don't have a confidence problem. I know what I want and how I feel and I'm not afraid to say it.

Thank you to everyone else who has posted on this thread especially Mrswondering and the other FWS out there that have insight into the other side of things for me. Lvninitaly

LvninItaly...

Have you mentioned to your wife that I'd be glad to "talk" to her here?

Mrs. W

Feelings follow actions, though. The feelings will come sooner and she will feel more bonded with you if she has SEX with you. Steve told her this, right?

Can you bring her here?

Hello Mel, yes Steve did tell her this but she has a mental block about it not feeling right. I think she is having a hard time believing that the MB program will work.

Mrs. Wondering I haven't told her yet but plan on it today or tomorrow. Thanks for your help.

So did I, but I was wrong - That's why I would love for her to come here and talk to us...


Good deal! I look forward to "meeting" her! And you are more than welcome!

Mrs. W

Wonder where I might have picked up that little gem.

Get her here Italy and let her own gender reason with her in the way that genders reason, uh, with each other.

Glad to see the expanded level of posts and concurrent help.

Larry

Uh, Mel has a post she did, uh, recently, that uh, kinda indicated the, uh, emotional benefits, uh, of the MB program. I think it had to do with something like clothes being torn off or some such verbal description, uh, maybe.

THAT is maybe something that can be shared in the subtle way women share that might influence your wife. I already shared with you the stuff you needed to hear about hoisting them up and acting male. And you got it.

Now it is your wife's turn.

Ya' think?

Larry