Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 12 1 2 3 4 5 11 12
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,437
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,437
SC, there is no sacrifice if it is willingly done. It only feels like a sacrifice if one approaches it like, "Yeah, okay, whatever, you win, we'll do it your way."

That is NOT poja.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
Originally Posted By: CWMI
SC, there is no sacrifice if it is willingly done. It only feels like a sacrifice if one approaches it like, "Yeah, okay, whatever, you win, we'll do it your way."

That is NOT poja.


I disagree. Willingness alone doesn't negate the feeling of sacrifice when one must give up an activity, behavior, attitude or belief in order for their spouse to be happy. I can intentionally decide to do something for the sake of my spouse because I believe it's the right thing to do, but that doesn't mean I will like it.

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
Someone asked earlier . . . I'm the wife smile

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,437
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,437
Originally Posted By: thinkinitthru66

I disagree. Willingness alone doesn't negate the feeling of sacrifice when one must give up an activity, behavior, attitude or belief in order for their spouse to be happy. I can intentionally decide to do something for the sake of my spouse because I believe it's the right thing to do, but that doesn't mean I will like it.


Then you're still not in POJA, and what you are describing is not real willingness, but sacrificial martyrdom. I have to ask: are you saying that you DON'T like to do the right thing? I would have to say then, that THAT is the problem...wanting what you want when you want it, even when you know it's wrong. Stuff that's bad for us has immediate gratification and long-term consequences. Stuff that's good for us (or 'right') has immediate consequences, but long-term gratification.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
Originally Posted By: CWMI
SC, there is no sacrifice if it is willingly done. It only feels like a sacrifice if one approaches it like, "Yeah, okay, whatever, you win, we'll do it your way."

That is NOT poja.


I have argued this point a million times and IMHO it is a sacrifice regardless of the consequences.

I WILLINGLY and WITHOUT RESENTMENT do not go to "sit down restaurants" very often because my spouse does not like it. It does not bother me and i do it because "i do not want to be the cause of my spouses unhappiness" and no other reason.

However it is still IMHO a sacrifice on my part just because i do not resent it, it is still a sacrifice in my opinion.

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I have to ask: are you saying that you DON'T like to do the right thing? I would have to say then, that THAT is the problem...wanting what you want when you want it, even when you know it's wrong. Stuff that's bad for us has immediate gratification and long-term consequences. Stuff that's good for us (or 'right') has immediate consequences, but long-term gratification.


I'm only human smile

I strive to do the "right thing." Sometimes my self-will or worse, self-righteousness, gets in the way. The good thing is that I catch myself a lot faster and apolgize rather than let it fester. And sometimes I even catch myself BEFORE I make a mistake. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is no healthier than doing the wrong thing. As you point out, that's not the POJA, it's sacrificial martyrdom, doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

POJA requires BOTH parties to participate. That's a problem at my house.

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
What is "give and take"?

"sacrifice on both parts to make things work" or

"POJA" or

"whatever you want to call it".

It still means that one spouse can not do something that they enjoy so it is a sacrifice.

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
Quote:

From Fear of Marriage
Link=http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_fear.html

I didn't understand why my marriage to Joyce was so successful when I first started counseling troubled couples. At the time, I thought that it was due to our commitment to each other, our willingness to sacrifice for each other, and our unconditional love for each other . . . Eventually, I came to understand that the commitment Joyce and I shared, our willingness to sacrifice, and our unconditional love was the result of our being in love with each other, not the cause.


Even Harley apparently has a willingness to sacrifice and unconditional love as elements of his own marriage.

They are not the CAUSE of a good marriage, but apparently he sees them as a valuable RESULT of being in love.

One can sacrifice and commit to unconditional love without being in love . . . in my world, thats called being a family smile

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
What is "give and take"?

"sacrifice on both parts to make things work" or

"POJA" or

"whatever you want to call it".

It still means that one spouse can not do something that they enjoy so it is a sacrifice.


This is just my opinion, but I think "sacrifice on both parts to make things work" is most definitely NOT the same thing as POJA. In fact that is just the opposite.

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,437
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,437
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
Originally Posted By: CWMI
SC, there is no sacrifice if it is willingly done. It only feels like a sacrifice if one approaches it like, "Yeah, okay, whatever, you win, we'll do it your way."

That is NOT poja.


I have argued this point a million times and IMHO it is a sacrifice regardless of the consequences.

I WILLINGLY and WITHOUT RESENTMENT do not go to "sit down restaurants" very often because my spouse does not like it. It does not bother me and i do it because "i do not want to be the cause of my spouses unhappiness" and no other reason.

However it is still IMHO a sacrifice on my part just because i do not resent it, it is still a sacrifice in my opinion.


It sounds like you carry some resentment over it. I would venture a guess that the resentment comes from martyrdom, how you DON'T go to 'not be the cause of your spouse's unhappiness' and your perception (real or imagined) that your spouse will not do the same for you. You've essentially thrown yourself down in a fit of "fine, we won't do this because it is what YOU choose alone, and I'll be the bigger person here, the peace keeper! Look at how SACRIFICIAL I am!"

Do you know why your H doesn't like sit-down restaurants? Have you discussed ways to address his concerns?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
From that same article:
Quote:
But besides logic and passion, there are two other factors that are crucial in creating a successful marriage: Willingness to change and mutual respect.


If only one partner has a willingness to change, then we are back to the original topic of this thread, the renter mindset.

If I were in love with my spouse, I could live with never going to England or Ireland again. I am willing to let it go if it means that I get to have a loving, passionate relationship with someone who loves me enough to do everything in their power NOT to hurt me. As it is, I'm not really in love with my spouse. And my spouse does not love me enough to do everything in his power NOT to hurt me. So I grieve the loss of traveling abroad. And this is just one example. I grieve other losses too. To be fair, so does my spouse. He grieves spending every weekend with his friends. He grieves not having time alone without responsibilities. He is stressed and irritable and depressed all the time and he thinks it's because of some outside factor when in reality it's because he's fighting internally the intimacy that a "real" marriage would require. I feel compassion for his fear, because I feel it too. But I want it badly enough to make changes. He doesn't want it that badly. He's satisfied with "good enough" and doesn't understand why I can't be content with "good enough."


Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,518
R
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,518
Even if what you do is out of willingness, or even a slight feeling of sacrifice on your part, the important thing is whether it it is the right thing to do. If it is, then do it. Let your actions lead your feelings. That is how you build good habits. Every time you choose the right action, you will feel better about yourself later. You reluctance will melt away, then be replaced by enthusiasm as it brings a positive response from your spouse.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: thinkinitthru66


Even Harley apparently has a willingness to sacrifice and unconditional love as elements of his own marriage.



He is not saying that is good, though. He has said over and over again EVER SINCE that while these are renters practices in dating situations, they won't sustain a marriage. And they don't.

Quote:

One can sacrifice and commit to unconditional love without being in love . . . in my world, thats called being a family smile



Exactly, but we are talking about romantic love here. We don't have romantic love with our children.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
Originally Posted By: CWMI

It sounds like you carry some resentment over it. I would venture a guess that the resentment comes from martyrdom, how you DON'T go to 'not be the cause of your spouse's unhappiness' and your perception (real or imagined) that your spouse will not do the same for you. You've essentially thrown yourself down in a fit of "fine, we won't do this because it is what YOU choose alone, and I'll be the bigger person here, the peace keeper! Look at how SACRIFICIAL I am!"

Do you know why your H doesn't like sit-down restaurants? Have you discussed ways to address his concerns?


I do not carry resentment over. I truly do not care and i do not even like the fact that you are trying to say i do, why is it any different than what Mel or Mrs W said and you did not say they resent it.

He does not like them for several reasons, he does not like a crowd, he is a home body and would prefer to be at home or outdoors doing something, he does not like to wait, he does not like how rude the staff can be.

So when we do go we go during a time that is not crowded and where we can have an outdoor patio which helps. But i know that he probably would prefer to not go at all but he does it occasionally for me anyway because he knows it is something that i like to do.

Just as i do things with him occasionally that i might not necessarily like to do but i do not detest them so i go so he can enjoy them once in a while too because we TRULY do not do anything without the other one.

And IMHO that is sacrifice or compromise but either way you are giving up something you like for the betterment of your marriage.

And i am not saying it is bad i just think it is immpossible to "not be the cause of your spouses unhappiness" without some sacrifice.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
I suppose it could be considered "sacrifice" if you consider quitting smoking or any other bad habit a "sacrifice." When I gave up the Marlboros, I sure felt like I was "sacrificing" at first but the good health that came from quitting, was more than worth giving up a 4 pack a day smoking habit.

It is the same with any other behavior that harms the love in your marriage, it should be EXCHANGED for behavior that does not harm the marriage.

Some behaviors may not be "BAD" on their own, such as eating Mexican food, but it only becomes bad when I try to force my spouse to "compromise" by doing something he hates. A better solution is to find a new restaurant that we BOTH LOVE.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
It is the same with any other behavior that harms the love in your marriage, it should be EXCHANGED for behavior that does not harm the marriage.

Some behaviors may not be "BAD" on their own, such as eating Mexican food, but it only becomes bad when I try to force my spouse to "compromise" by doing something he hates. A better solution is to find a new restaurant that we BOTH LOVE.


Which IMHO is sacrifice.......

And in my case it is not a place that we both love to eat, my h does not like to go out to sit down restaurants period, yet he occasionally will "sacrifice" and go with me because he knows it is something that "I" like even though i do not ask him to "sacrifice", i have told him i can just go with the kids. He WANTS to go with me and do something that i enjoy doing even though it is not his cup of tea so to speak.

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,437
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,437
Mel didn't say it was a sacrifice, that's why I'm seeing it differently, SC.

Have you two been to any really really good restaurants? I have a totally different experience at a $$$$ place than, say, chain restaurants. For food gettin' purposes, on the way to something else, I don't like waiting or crowds or surly waiters either! But for a dining experience, solely for the food, there's nothing quite like a really really great restaurant. Your H probably sees eating as a necessity, and not an experience, right?

Is there anything you can do to help him appreciate the experience of eating? If he's a carnivorous person, you might suggest an evening at a Brazilian steakhouse...gauchos come by your table and slice meat off a spit onto your plate, it's amazing. I'm just saying, he might change his mind about the whole thing if you make it a good experience by not overpaying for cruddy service, and save up to have a fantastic experience instead.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


Which IMHO is sacrifice.......


But wouldn't it be a sacrifice if I continued smoking, because I was sacrificing my health? That is what the real sacrifice was. When I gave up cigarettes, I GAINED good health. When I smoked I SACRIFICED my health.

It is the same with lovebusting behavior. When you practice lovebusters, you are SACRIFICING the compatibility and happiness in your marriage.

Quote:
And in my case it is not a place that we both love to eat, my h does not like to go out to sit down restaurants period, yet he occasionally will "sacrifice" and go with me because he knows it is something that "I" like even though i do not ask him to "sacrifice",


Which is exactly how incompatibility is built. Making your husband do something you like, at HIS EXPENSE is how unhappiness and incompatibility is bred into marriages. I can get my husband to go eat Mexican any day of the week, but the result is that he is UNHAPPY at my expense. And that is what the POJA seeks to prevent. It is bad for marriages, StillCrazy.

Has this practice resulted in a happy marriage for you? How would you define the state of your marriage?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Mel didn't say it was a sacrifice, that's why I'm seeing it differently, SC.

Have you two been to any really really good restaurants? I have a totally different experience at a $$$$ place than, say, chain restaurants. For food gettin' purposes, on the way to something else, I don't like waiting or crowds or surly waiters either! But for a dining experience, solely for the food, there's nothing quite like a really really great restaurant. Your H probably sees eating as a necessity, and not an experience, right?

Is there anything you can do to help him appreciate the experience of eating? If he's a carnivorous person, you might suggest an evening at a Brazilian steakhouse...gauchos come by your table and slice meat off a spit onto your plate, it's amazing. I'm just saying, he might change his mind about the whole thing if you make it a good experience by not overpaying for cruddy service, and save up to have a fantastic experience instead.


I know that Mel did not call it "sacrifice", however IMHO what Mel described is "sacrifice" and IMHO "sacrifice" is NOT a BAD thing........

And there is no way my h would go for something like that because he would have to do something else he does not like to do which is dress up, that would be worse than just going out to dinner for him far worse and he would resent that i am sure.....

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


Which IMHO is sacrifice.......


But wouldn't it be a sacrifice if I continued smoking, because I was sacrificing my health? That is what the real sacrifice was. When I gave up cigarettes, I GAINED good health. When I smoked I SACRIFICED my health.

It is the same with lovebusting behavior. When you practice lovebusters, you are SACRIFICING the compatibility and happiness in your marriage.

Quote:
And in my case it is not a place that we both love to eat, my h does not like to go out to sit down restaurants period, yet he occasionally will "sacrifice" and go with me because he knows it is something that "I" like even though i do not ask him to "sacrifice",


Which is exactly how incompatibility is built. Making your husband do something you like, at HIS EXPENSE is how unhappiness and incompatibility is bred into marriages. I can get my husband to go eat Mexican any day of the week, but the result is that he is UNHAPPY at my expense. And that is what the POJA seeks to prevent. It is bad for marriages, StillCrazy.

Has this practice resulted in a happy marriage for you? How would you define the state of your marriage?


I disagree Mel......

This has nothing to do with the state of my marriage or anyone else's for that matter, i just do not believe it is possible to "not be the cause of your spouses unhappiness" without sacrifice is all that is totally it.......

I do not ask my h to go out to "sit down restaurants" with me as i know he does not like them. He will ocassionally say "hey do you want to go out to eat at so and so" and i gladly accept and we have a great time. I am sure that it is a sacrifice to him because i know that he does not like to go to "sit down restaurants'.

Just like i really do not like basketball, but i would go to a basketball game with him if that is something he wanted to do just so i could be with him and i would not resent it in any way shape or form and i might even enjoy myself once i am there, but i would never have gone if i did not "sacrifice" to begin with....

IMHO that should be part of a marriage........

Page 3 of 12 1 2 3 4 5 11 12

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 29 guests, and 67 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mwid, Shepherd, alg, Pelican89, SRL
71,673 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,526
Posts2,322,550
Members71,673
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5