Marriage Builders®
Posted By: Pepperband Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 06:52 PM
A discussion about one of my favorite Harley books !!!!!


Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders

Quote:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.




Quote:

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.



Quote:

According to Harley

most happily married couples have worked their way up from Freeloaders to Renters and finally to Buyers.

He says the problem arises when partners do not eventually become Buyers.




Quote:

Some more Willard to chew on:

"The real commitment of marriage is not a commitment to stay regardless of how you are treated. It's a commitment to care for each other regardless of the circumstances you find yourselves in."

also....

"Marriage means that each spouse is commited to make a GREATER effort to care for each other than they were making BEFORE marriage, a GREATER effort to meet each other's intimate needs."

really something to think about for all of us ....




Quote:

... which brings us to POJA

which is adopting the Buyer's strategy

means you must consider both your interests ~and~ your partner's interests

up to the point of bilateral enthusiastic agreement

which means NO ONE sacrifices their happiness for the other's .... you seek mutual happiness



Quote:

The good doctor says that couples who do not practice POJA skills gradually develop incompatable lifestyles....



Quote:

Think of POJA as the ~Holy Grail~ for creating a marriage of mutual compatibility

and enthusiastic support for major decisions implies a respect for the long-term happiness of both partners

this does not mean compromise is not to be found ... but it must be enthusiastic and genuine ... which eliminates sacrifice which is a disingenuous method of manipulating one's spouse

every sacrifice we ask of our partner or of ourselves is a step ~away~ from a mutually enjoyable relationship

think of the relationship ~itself~ as a third person in the marriage ... and choosing what is best for the relationship instead of what is best for only one partner
















Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 06:58 PM
The GIVER and The TAKER ....both "good guys" in the marriage.

Quote:

Now for something really cool.....

Giver/Taker ... or as Harley says: "We all have split personalities"

The Giver's Rule ... do whatever you can to make others happy and avoid anything that makes others unhappy even it it makes you unhappy.

Everyone has a giver. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers .... criminals ... Grandma .... your MIL .... your cheating spouse.... your faithful spouse. Our Giver wants us to make a positive difference in the lives of others and it grows out of our instinct to provide care. "give until it hurts"

The Taker's Rule ... do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes you unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy.

Everyone has a Taker. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers ... criminals ... Grandma ... your MIL ... your cheating spouse ... your faithful spouse ... Our Taker wants us to get the most out of life, and it grows out of our basic instinct for self-preservation. "get what you need in life"

Harley says:

"It is tempting to consider the Giver as our caring nature and the Taker as our thoughtless nature.

But that's NOT what they are.

Actually, they are BOTH caring.

Your Giver cares for others

and

Your Taker cares for you"

!!!!!!!!!!!! KEWL dance2

Wait .... there's MORE !!!!!!! shocked

Harley goes on to say:

" Both Giver and Taker also have their thoughtless sides.

Your Giver does NOT CARE how YOU feel.

and

Your Taker does NOT CARE how others feel. "

!!!!!! REALLY KEWL hurray and there's more !!!!

Harley says:

" In fact your Giver is willing to see YOU suffer even to the point of deep depression as long as you continue to care about others.

Your Taker is willing to see others suffer if it means you are happy or are prevented from suffering. "

So, we ALL have a Giver and a Taker

and they are both good ... because

they both care (Giver cares for others, Taker cares for you)

AND

they are both bad ... because

they are both thoughtless (Giver cares nothing about your feelings, Taker cares nothing about the feelings for others)

~~ Here's the importnt point Harley makes~~

"Because each of them ignores someone's feelings, they are both shortsighted. They fail to understand that you and others should be cared for and protected simultaneously, so that no one suffers"
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 07:06 PM
So ... what is the "agreement" we make in our romantic relationship?

AKA .... MARRIAGE

Quote:
Freeloader
Renter
Buyer

represent our agreement in our romantic relationships

while Giver/Taker are instinctive influences to everyone irregardless of our current agreement

Harley says:

"The Buyer's, Renter's, Freeloader's agreements determine how the Giver and Taker influence each of us."

..... and it's interesting that both the Buyer's and the Freeloader's agreements hold our Giver and Taker in check.

Both Freeloader's and Buyer's agreements disallow us to become self-sacrificing in our romantic relationship.

Freeloader's agreement and Buyer's agreements do not allow us to expect others to self-sacrifice in a romantic relationship.

But for very different reasons .....

Freeloaders feel that the right relationship should be effortless and people should only do what comes naturally.

Buyer's assume a long-term romantic relationship requires mutually enjoyable accomodation and encourages behavioral change to resolve conflict.

SO ..... those of us who are the faithful partner and thereby assume we are automatically THE BUYER in the relationship ... think again ! It is equally possible we are RENTERS .... especially if we are willing to sacrifice ourselves in order to "save the marriage" ....



If you are willing to sacrifice your needs for the relationship, you are not functioning with a Buyer's agreement..


Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 07:09 PM
What is so wrong with sacrificing in a marriage anyway?


Quote:
The Renter's agreement places NO RESTRICTIONS on the Giver and the Taker.

Renters accept the sacrifice of others in a romantic relationship.

Renters accept the sacrifice of the self in a romantic relationship.

When a couple opens the door to expecting sacrifice of each other, arguements and fights and resentments are the result.

.... but it doesn't start off like that .... it starts off looking rather pleasant and feeling rather lovey-dovey ..... because Renters begin their romance with mutual sacrifice.

Givers control the courtship. Both Renters are in Giver-mode sacrificing in order to make the other happy ... and all is great .... as long as both partners stay in Giver mode.

But, no one does. Because Giver mode 24/7 is short-sighted and does not care for the self.

So ... the love and care Renter/Giver to Renter/Giver supply each other is UNpleasant because it ignores our Taker .... who cares for us. And this sacrifice for love takes it's toll.

Harley says it this way:

"A relationship based on sacrifice does not keep partners in a good mood. In fact, over time it tends to create a very BAD mood between partners. And whenever we are in a bad mood, our Takers come to our rescue.~ Are you unhappy? That's because you've been giving too much. Now it's time for you to do some taking~, our Taker whispers to us. "


Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 07:16 PM

How does the RENTER agreement start arguments?


Quote:

Harley says:

"Demands are usually the first step in an argument."

"When one partner tells the other what to do, it's because his or her Taker suggests that the demand is reasonable."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~after all~ your partner OWES YOU .... you have sacrificed sooooooo much .... and your partner OUGHT TO sacrifice for YOU now !!!!

~~~~~~boxing gloves on ! My Taker is going to take on your Taker....



Quote:

When someone feels the unpleasant effects of all their sacrificing .... stress enters .... and their Taker starts demanding a little "me time" .... and they express "If you won't give me what I need when I ask for it, I'll make you give it to me."

manipulation begins .... choose your weapons



Quote:

The ANGER and cursing and the RESENTMENTS are your Taker's way of coming to the rescue when your Giver has been unchecked.



I suggest, to those of us who are feeling RESENTFUL, that we make a comprehensive study of 'sacrifice' and how we have valued 'sacrifice' as a tool for getting what we need .... no matter who is doing the sacrificing.

Sacrifice is a dishonest way of getting our needs met.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 07:19 PM
Harley says:

Quote:
"What I'm saying is that your Taker needs to be enthusiastic about every decision. This doesn't rule out short-term sacrifice, though, because your Taker can be enthusiastic about some forms of sacrifice, if they're in your long-term interest."

"But when you agree to something reluctantly, it means you are sacrificing with no personal gain in sight. You are doing it for someone else's gain. That's why your Taker usually tries to sabotage any agreement you have made reluctantly."



Do not forget ....
when you agree to something reluctantly

you are being dishonest in your marriage ! naughty
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 07:23 PM
Quote:
The Buyers approach to problem solving.

Byers don't try to control each other.

Buyers don't make demands.

Buyers don't show disrespect or lose their temper.

They solve their problems by negotiating solutions that are win/win.

Dependency

You are dependent when what you recive is not balanced by what you give in return.

How can we create a dependent spouse? When we are in the early/Renter romantic stages of a relationship, we tend to give and give and give ~~~> sacrifical giving. And all that giving creates a DEPENDENCY in our spouse. All that giving creates EXPECTATIONS that are unrealistic in a long-term romantic relationship.

Giving without wanting anything in return ~~~> the Giver is running wild and unchecked.

What does that create in the other spouse? Their Taker is given free reign. "gimme gimme gimme" shocked

This sets up opportunity for abusive relationships where one spouse is giver heavy and the other is Taker heavy.

No balance. No give-take. The GIVER is the one who creates this ... by sacrificing and essentially training their spouses' Taker that there are no limits to how much sacrificing their spouse might submit to.

Control

Once you reach a point where you have your spouse depending on you , you are now in a position to control your spouse.

While our Giver sets up dependency by encouraging us to give unconditionally, our Taker has no such generous motives.

Our Taker will not be denied ! Now that your spouse is dependant on you, your Taker wants to control what the spouse must do in order to payback for all the sacrificing !!!

So if my Giver-gone-wild crazy has set up my spouse to become dependant on me ... what happends to my Taker side?
My Taker begins to feel that this situation is terribly unfair, and starts to grumble rant2 and complain ...
and then make demands, start fights twoxfour and generally tries to control my spouse... and I might even run off and have an affair "Because I have done so much for this marriage and never get anything in return ... it's MY TURN to do something just for me"

puke yuk
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 07:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband


If you are willing to sacrifice your needs for the relationship, you are not functioning with a Buyer's agreement..




This is an interesting concept.

Many of the other folks online seem to be advocating some sort of mix between meeting what MB defines as the key Emotional Needs and surpressing some of your desires so your spouse will be pleased and stay with you....and it will be more likely they will be motivated to do what you want / meet your needs.

For example, the Light His Fire series by Dr Ellen has some free samples which I listened to a few weeks ago before I found MB. For women, it was like "If you make him feel like a man when he's with you, there's nothing he wont do for you." I guess that intuitively it may make sense, but it seems very one-sided to me.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 07:27 PM
Our most angry moments come when we have allowed our

GIVER

to rule the relationship , made sacrifices, and thus created a RENTER relationship where our needs are not met.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 07:34 PM
P O J A

The "BUYER's" agreement !!


Quote:
POJA requires this question be asked

"How do you feel about what I would like to do?"

Decisions are to be made considering each other's feelings.

POJA forces you to be considerate especially when you don't feel like it

OK .... you've asked THE question "How would you feel about ...."

and this gets negotiation started ... and you realize the goal is enthusiastic agreement ... how do you arrive at that goal?




Quote:

Guidelines for POJA

Guideline 1

Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.

...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.

...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.

...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~

Guideline 2

Identify the problem from both perspectives.

Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.

Harley says

Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.

It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.

(~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up*)

Guideline 3

Brainstorm with abandon

This is the creative part.

Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.


The goal is to please both of you.

Harley says

The secret to understanding your partner is to think like your partner's Taker thinks.

It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.



VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***

Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 07:37 PM
POJA

What about addiction?


Quote:
And,

Guideline 4

Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy Of Joint Agreement --Mutual and enthusiastic agreement

~~~> regarding addiction <~~~

"But what can you do if you have agreed to follow the POJA, tried to negotiate for a mutually enthusiastic solution, and yet you or your partner keep behaving in a way that is objectionable to the other? This kind of thoughtless behavior may turn out to be an addiction "

"If one of you struggles with an addiction, you will find that the POJA simply cannot be followed until you have overcome the addiction."

"So if you have tried to follow my advice but can't seem to negotiate with each other regardless of how hard you try, addiction may be the culprit."
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 07:44 PM
POJA ... "It's not working" dramaqueen


Quote:

Taken from the concepts part of MB site .....

Quote Dr Harley:

The Policy of Radical Honesty

"Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.

To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts:

1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior.

2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.

3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse.

4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Know what strikes me right off the bat looking at this list?

...Radical Honesty pretty much knocks conflict avoiders out !!!




Quote:

Which brings me to a question ....

emotional honesty ... I don't think a couple can be successful in POJA negotiations without emotional honesty.

How can one POJA with an emotionally dishonest partner?

.... lest we forget ... a conflict avoider is emotionally dishonest ...

REMEMBER THE QUESTION THAT OPENS POJA

How would you feel about this .....




Quote:


From this site regarding emotional honesty

Quote Dr Harley:

"And finally, in order to make the best decisions, you must be radically honest with each other about your emotional reactions to the changes in your lives. The best decisions take the emotional reactions of both of you into account simultaneously, but without an honest expression of those reactions, you will be missing the target.

While some couples may fail to make a successful adjustment after feelings are honestly explained, failure is almost guaranteed when the need for adjustment is never communicated. Always take each other's complains seriously. As I mentioned earlier, your emotional reactions are a gauge of whether you are making a good adjustment to each other. If you both feel good, you need no adjustment. If one or both of you feel bad, a change is indicated. "
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 07:49 PM
"You did then what you knew then. Now you know better, you will do better."
kiss

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 08:02 PM
"Talk amongst yourselves."
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 08:09 PM
Originally Posted By: ChrisInNOVA
Originally Posted By: Pepperband


If you are willing to sacrifice your needs for the relationship, you are not functioning with a Buyer's agreement..




This is an interesting concept.

Many of the other folks online seem to be advocating some sort of mix between meeting what MB defines as the key Emotional Needs and surpressing some of your desires so your spouse will be pleased and stay with you....and it will be more likely they will be motivated to do what you want / meet your needs.

For example, the Light His Fire series by Dr Ellen has some free samples which I listened to a few weeks ago before I found MB. For women, it was like "If you make him feel like a man when he's with you, there's nothing he wont do for you." I guess that intuitively it may make sense, but it seems very one-sided to me.


Welcome to MARRIAGE BUILDERS

Stick around.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 08:34 PM
Originally Posted By: ChrisInNOVA


Many of the other folks online seem to be advocating some sort of mix between meeting what MB defines as the key Emotional Needs and surpressing some of your desires so your spouse will be pleased and stay with you....and it will be more likely they will be motivated to do what you want / meet your needs.


Chris, that is an excellent question. The critical component is supressing behavior that is BAD for the marriage in exchange for behavior that is good for the marriage. The idea is to never do anything that causes your spouse unhappiness. And let me give you one example of a situation in my marriage.

He loves Chinese and I love Mexican food. He hates Mexican and I hate Chinese. Lets say we practice a "compromise" and we go for Mexican one night and Chinese the next night. That means that I will be unhappy on one night and he will be unhappy the next because we are each gaining at the others EXPENSE for one night.

This is called sacrifice. And it leads to incompatibility and resentment. It leads to incompatibility because people won't do things that make themselves unhappy for long. I might go for Chinese 3 or 4 times and tolerate that nasty food, but pretty soon I will be finding reasons to AVOID going out to eat and he will be resentful, because people who practice sacrifice KEEP SCORE. He will be mad because I "OWE" him a Chinese night to pay for his MExican night.

The solution recommended by Marriage Builders avoids all that. Instead of going to ANY restaurant that one spouse doesn't like, the solution is to find a restaurant that BOTH LOVE. Mexican and Chinese are completely OFF our lists. In it's place is a list of restaurants we both like. This solution builds compatibility because it ensures we are BOTH happy.

And I did learn the HARD way that the agreement has to be enthusiastic. If the other person agrees reluctantly to avoid conflict, you have missed the point because the result will still be unhappiness which will lead to incompatibility.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 08:38 PM
Got it!
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 09:58 PM
ML, does that mean that your DH no longer eats Chinese food and you no longer eat Mexican? If so, wouldn't THAT be sacrifice?

I am not asking to be difficult. But I have seen a very simlar incomatiblity in my own marriage, which was there BEFORE we married. I just never realized it would be such a big deal to me.

My spouse is terrified of flying in an airplane. I was an avid world traveler before marriage and was very much looking forward to doing my world travelling WITH someone for a change. Unfortunately that is not an option with the POJA. We have the means to do other things, like Atlantic Cruises, or trips within the contintental US via driving/train, and I can enthusaistically agree to do these things. But going to London together will never happen. And it seems incompatible with MB for me to go to Europe on my own.

I actually DID think about this before we married, but I thought it would be selfish and superficial of me to break the engagement because of something like a fear of flying. (I know now that thinking is flawed.) ha We have even tried flying before, and trust me when I say there is no way my spouse would enthusiastically agree to it again.

Can you gameplay a solution to this situation?
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 10:14 PM
Originally Posted By: ChrisInNOVA
Originally Posted By: Pepperband


If you are willing to sacrifice your needs for the relationship, you are not functioning with a Buyer's agreement..




This is an interesting concept.

Many of the other folks online seem to be advocating some sort of mix between meeting what MB defines as the key Emotional Needs and surpressing some of your desires so your spouse will be pleased and stay with you....and it will be more likely they will be motivated to do what you want / meet your needs.

For example, the Light His Fire series by Dr Ellen has some free samples which I listened to a few weeks ago before I found MB. For women, it was like "If you make him feel like a man when he's with you, there's nothing he wont do for you." I guess that intuitively it may make sense, but it seems very one-sided to me.



Anything with a title like "light His Fire" or "Light Her Fre" makes me want to puke.

Not only that, but something with a title like that is a HUGE turnoff to someone who feels that their spouse is the "enemy" because of withdrawl (on either side). MB is the first program I have run into that treates "the marriage" as a separate entity which is worthy of protection and care, even if we don't "like" our spouse for justifiable reason.
Posted By: markos Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 10:17 PM
Originally Posted By: thinkinitthru66
ML, does that mean that your DH no longer eats Chinese food and you no longer eat Mexican? If so, wouldn't THAT be sacrifice?


Thanks for asking, think; I was wondering that, myself.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 10:19 PM
Originally Posted By: thinkinitthru66
ML, does that mean that your DH no longer eats Chinese food and you no longer eat Mexican? If so, wouldn't THAT be sacrifice?


It would be a sacrifice in the sense that quitting smoking was a sacrifice for me, but I was rewarded with a BETTER REPLACEMENT. In my marriage, the better replacement is a list of restaurants that makes us BOTH happy. Even though I LOVE mexican food, I love my H more and appreciate having great dinners with him in places I know he is happy.

Quote:
I am not asking to be difficult. But I have seen a very simlar incomatiblity in my own marriage, which was there BEFORE we married. I just never realized it would be such a big deal to me.


Even though you were incompatible before marriage, you can learn it afterwards. We were probably very incompatible too, but we had to learn compatibility.

Quote:


We have the means to do other things, like Atlantic Cruises, or trips within the contintental US via driving/train, and I can enthusaistically agree to do these things. But going to London together will never happen. And it seems incompatible with MB for me to go to Europe on my own.
Can you gameplay a solution to this situation?


The solution would be to find another way to go to London [by ship] or to find another destination about which you are both enthusiastic.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 10:21 PM
p.s. If I never ate Mexican food again, it wouldn't bother me a bit. But I do eat it when I go out to lunch with coworkers or take clients.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 10:27 PM
Originally Posted By: thinkinitthru66
ML, does that mean that your DH no longer eats Chinese food and you no longer eat Mexican? If so, wouldn't THAT be sacrifice?


Here is another reason why this isn't a sacrifice. How much do you enjoy eating with someone who HATES being in the restaurant you have chosen? I hate it. When my H is miserable, I am miserable and we both end up resentful.

I have even pulled the trick of railroading him into agreeing to a particular restaurant without his enthusiastic agreement. I regretted it. He was so resentful that he complained about the traffic all the way over there and then when we got there, he found fault in everything. So, even forcing him into compliance with my personal interests AT HIS EXPENSE, did not benefit me in any way. He was miserable, I was miserable.

So even if I NEVER ate Mexican again, I wouldn't miss that.
Posted By: markos Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 10:48 PM
So, you do eat these beloved foods when you are apart, and that's not a problem in the Marriage Builders paradigm?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 10:56 PM
As long as her H is okay with her eating Mexican food with others, then yes, it fits. If she were to hide it from him, or worse, rub it in his face how much she enjoyed it, so much more than the places they go together, then that's a problem!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 10:56 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
So, you do eat these beloved foods when you are apart, and that's not a problem in the Marriage Builders paradigm?


Eating lunch with coworkers?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 10:57 PM
Originally Posted By: canwemakeit
As long as her H is okay with her eating Mexican food with others, then yes, it fits. If she were to hide it from him, or worse, rub it in his face how much she enjoyed it, so much more than the places they go together, then that's a problem!



bingo!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 10:57 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: markos
So, you do eat these beloved foods when you are apart, and that's not a problem in the Marriage Builders paradigm?


Eating lunch with coworkers?


Depends on the coworkers. smile
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 10:57 PM
This post, by Star*Fish, also discusses the GIVER/TAKER.


Quote:

The Giver is the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make the other person happy and avoid anything that makes the other person unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. It's the part of you that wants to make a difference in the lives of others, and it grows out of a basic instinct that we all share, a deep reservoir of love and concern for those around us.

But the Giver is only half of the story. The other half is the Taker. It's the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. It's the part of you that wants the most out of life, and it grows out of your basic instinct for self-preservation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The giver is all about love and concern and the taker is our selfish side...so how can the giver be bad, or the taker be good?

Everybody recognizes the "good" in the giver and how giving can enhance relationships, but here's how a "bad" giver can ruin your marriage if all your marital choices are made solely selflessly:

*your giver is not honest....he won't tell your spouse what you need because he more concerned about your spouse feels, whether your spouse gets his needs met, than protecting your interests or your feelings. If your spouse asks the giver if it's okay to do something....even something you don't want to do...the giver says okay.

*your giver is the one who creates resentment...all that dishonesty cloaked in care....leads to misunderstandings, mixed signals, missed opportunities. The giver thinks...my spouse should KNOW what I need....just like I know what he needs.

*your giver is your martyr....endless giving creates the ever suffering spouse. Givers are praised for their selflessness, but they become very unhappy until all that's left is to somehow enjoy the pain....and get what secondary gain that offers.

*givers avoid risk and change...no rocking the boat...who knows what could happen? Nope, givers like safety....even when that involves enduring discomfort.

*givers believe in unconditional love...because they don't ask for conditions. They just give.

*givers handle your tender emotions...fear, sadness, care, consideration. They also tend to be weepy and needy.

We all know how "bad" the taker can be....afterall he's the guy who makes selfish demands, angry outbursts and most of our other LBs. But how can the taker be "good"?

*your taker is the guy you need at the negotiation table....because your giver will NOT create harmony, fairness, honesty in the dealings. Without your taker, your giver will create an environment of sacrifice....leading to resentment, anger and loss of love.

*your taker is honest about what you need and gives your spouse the information to CHOOSE to show you he loves you in the way that you would like it. He doesn't require mind reading...he lays it on the table.

*your taker fights for what you need and doesn't let you sit home three weekends in a row...he makes sure you're part of the fun.

*your taker is not an enabler or codependent.

*your taker saves your marriage as often as your giver does by making sure that reciprocity exists.

*your taker is willing to take risks and make changes.


As an example, I'd like to put forward my own marriage and how my giver undermined the happiness in my marriage for years. I NEVER went into negotiations with my taker....so I never even got close to getting what I wanted. I always put my husband first. But I wasn't happy. I didn't like it.....and I BLAMED HIM for not giving me what I wanted even though I wasn't honest and he didn't know how to please me. There is no negotiation without the taker...the giver just says "fine", do what you want. I lived with resentment every time he did what he wanted. I punished him for it too. And I was not someone who he would want to spend time with in the future either because I was pretty much angry all the time.

Letting my taker out saved my marriage. Oh to be sure, I couldn't let my taker rant and rage....but once he wasn't in chains all the time, he was far less volatile. My taker is the one who found out that my husband was actually willing and pretty enthusiastice about negotiation. Instead of the old pattern...H wants to do something...I say yes...then treat him badly. The new pattern goes like this....H wants to do something, I tell him how I might feel enthusiastic about that...we come to an agreement about how we can both get what we need....and I treat him well...and we both have fun! He gets to enjoy his activities without guilt. I know that I won't be neglected because we have also made plans together.



Don't forget ....
if you are complaining about your spouse getting away with "X Y Z" bad behavior
for a loooooooooong time,
your "GIVER" has set you up for resentments.

(word!) clap
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 11:01 PM
Originally Posted By: canwemakeit
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: markos
So, you do eat these beloved foods when you are apart, and that's not a problem in the Marriage Builders paradigm?


Eating lunch with coworkers?


Depends on the coworkers. smile


Good point!
Posted By: markos Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 11:13 PM
It wasn't the coworkers; I was just thinking about some kind of contrast effect from engaging in a favorite activity (eating Chinese food) without one's spouse.

Maybe Mel's husband and I need to get together for Chinese food.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/10 11:18 PM
If Mel was leaving her H behind to go out for Mexican, that could be a problem. She's talking about lunch with co-workers, which her H wouldn't be present for anyway, and a gal's gotta eat!
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/06/10 12:45 AM
Sadly, going by boat is NOT in the budget or in the timetable (it takes a LOT longer).

Can I go to london with co-wrokers and eat mexican food as long as they are the same gender?

smile
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/06/10 12:46 AM
Originally Posted By: thinkinitthru66


Can I go to london with co-wrokers and eat mexican food as long as they are the same gender?

smile


rotflmao
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/06/10 01:16 AM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
p.s. If I never ate Mexican food again, it wouldn't bother me a bit. But I do eat it when I go out to lunch with coworkers or take clients.


I enjoy a margarita, every now and then.
My DH is a recovering alcoholic.
I don't sacrifice by not ordering alcohol when DH and I are out together (Mexican food sounds good right now).
I wait until I am out with a girlfriend(s), and then, if I want a drink, I have a drink.

My commitment to not being a source of unhappiness for my DH preempts my desire for an occasional drinky-poo.

If I NEVER had a Margarita again, I'll be fine.
If I occasionally have a Margarita with friends, DH is fine.

DH loves scary/gore-filled action flicks.
Not me.

We do not go to those movies together.
If I am unavailable/busy, DH goes to those movies with a male friend, or alone.
Same thing.

When we are together, we make sure we eat/drink/watch/do things that are mutually agreeable to us.

And, when we are not together, we make sure we avoid any activity that would cause each other unhappiness.




It's not rocket brain surgery science, here.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/06/10 02:47 AM
How about if you do not ever have an opportunity to enjoy your favorite things because you are not ever away from your spouse (by your own choice)?

I do not eat lunch with anyone except my h (if he is near by) or by myself. Every once in a great while there will be a department lunch of some sort that i attend but other than that i do not go to lunch with co-workers.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/06/10 03:54 AM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
How about if you do not ever have an opportunity to enjoy your favorite things because you are not ever away from your spouse (by your own choice)?


What?
Is this a real question? Are you teasing me?

How about you POJA this/any/all dilemmas with your spouse?

Brainstorm honestly, and with abandon, until you find a mutually agreeable solution.

It doesn't do you any good to brainstorm with us grin

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/06/10 04:03 AM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


How about if you do not ever have an opportunity to enjoy your favorite things because you are not ever away from your spouse (by your own choice)?


I would ask why being with your spouse is not your favorite thing? If he is not your favorite thing then I would work on changing that. smile
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/07/10 08:05 PM
I am not teasing. Being with my spouse is what I enjoy the most and he with me. However my problem is not what we eat but the fact that my h does not really like to go to (as I call them) “sit down restaurants”. He has lunch with me all the time and we sit down to eat but it is usually only fast food type things such as delis or things like that which are not really “sit down”.

He does not really like to go at dinner time although he will occasionally. And I am not close enough to any of my co-workers to go out to lunch with them (about 3 years ago my whole department of 24 people that I had worked with for 8 years was downsized to just me and then I was joined in my location by a department that already existed with co-worker bonds already formed). So I either have lunch with my h or I eat by myself and I do not really want to go to a “sit down restaurant” by myself.

Neither of us hangs out with anyone outside of work except each other so I would not have an opportunity to go with someone other than my children after work (which I have done) but I should not go without my h and I really do not enjoy myself if he is not there
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/07/10 08:13 PM
My point being that IMHO it is absolutely positively impossible to do this......

Quote:
When we are together, we make sure we eat/drink/watch/do things that are mutually agreeable to us.

And, when we are not together, we make sure we avoid any activity that would cause each other unhappiness.

It's not rocket brain surgery science, here.

[/font]


without some sacrifice on both parts.......
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/07/10 10:57 PM
SC, there is no sacrifice if it is willingly done. It only feels like a sacrifice if one approaches it like, "Yeah, okay, whatever, you win, we'll do it your way."

That is NOT poja.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 01:36 AM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
SC, there is no sacrifice if it is willingly done. It only feels like a sacrifice if one approaches it like, "Yeah, okay, whatever, you win, we'll do it your way."

That is NOT poja.


I disagree. Willingness alone doesn't negate the feeling of sacrifice when one must give up an activity, behavior, attitude or belief in order for their spouse to be happy. I can intentionally decide to do something for the sake of my spouse because I believe it's the right thing to do, but that doesn't mean I will like it.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 01:37 AM
Someone asked earlier . . . I'm the wife smile
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 12:28 PM
Originally Posted By: thinkinitthru66

I disagree. Willingness alone doesn't negate the feeling of sacrifice when one must give up an activity, behavior, attitude or belief in order for their spouse to be happy. I can intentionally decide to do something for the sake of my spouse because I believe it's the right thing to do, but that doesn't mean I will like it.


Then you're still not in POJA, and what you are describing is not real willingness, but sacrificial martyrdom. I have to ask: are you saying that you DON'T like to do the right thing? I would have to say then, that THAT is the problem...wanting what you want when you want it, even when you know it's wrong. Stuff that's bad for us has immediate gratification and long-term consequences. Stuff that's good for us (or 'right') has immediate consequences, but long-term gratification.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 12:49 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
SC, there is no sacrifice if it is willingly done. It only feels like a sacrifice if one approaches it like, "Yeah, okay, whatever, you win, we'll do it your way."

That is NOT poja.


I have argued this point a million times and IMHO it is a sacrifice regardless of the consequences.

I WILLINGLY and WITHOUT RESENTMENT do not go to "sit down restaurants" very often because my spouse does not like it. It does not bother me and i do it because "i do not want to be the cause of my spouses unhappiness" and no other reason.

However it is still IMHO a sacrifice on my part just because i do not resent it, it is still a sacrifice in my opinion.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 12:51 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I have to ask: are you saying that you DON'T like to do the right thing? I would have to say then, that THAT is the problem...wanting what you want when you want it, even when you know it's wrong. Stuff that's bad for us has immediate gratification and long-term consequences. Stuff that's good for us (or 'right') has immediate consequences, but long-term gratification.


I'm only human smile

I strive to do the "right thing." Sometimes my self-will or worse, self-righteousness, gets in the way. The good thing is that I catch myself a lot faster and apolgize rather than let it fester. And sometimes I even catch myself BEFORE I make a mistake. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is no healthier than doing the wrong thing. As you point out, that's not the POJA, it's sacrificial martyrdom, doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

POJA requires BOTH parties to participate. That's a problem at my house.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 12:54 PM
What is "give and take"?

"sacrifice on both parts to make things work" or

"POJA" or

"whatever you want to call it".

It still means that one spouse can not do something that they enjoy so it is a sacrifice.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 01:04 PM
Quote:

From Fear of Marriage
Link=http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_fear.html

I didn't understand why my marriage to Joyce was so successful when I first started counseling troubled couples. At the time, I thought that it was due to our commitment to each other, our willingness to sacrifice for each other, and our unconditional love for each other . . . Eventually, I came to understand that the commitment Joyce and I shared, our willingness to sacrifice, and our unconditional love was the result of our being in love with each other, not the cause.


Even Harley apparently has a willingness to sacrifice and unconditional love as elements of his own marriage.

They are not the CAUSE of a good marriage, but apparently he sees them as a valuable RESULT of being in love.

One can sacrifice and commit to unconditional love without being “in love” . . . in my world, that’s called being a family smile
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 01:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
What is "give and take"?

"sacrifice on both parts to make things work" or

"POJA" or

"whatever you want to call it".

It still means that one spouse can not do something that they enjoy so it is a sacrifice.


This is just my opinion, but I think "sacrifice on both parts to make things work" is most definitely NOT the same thing as POJA. In fact that is just the opposite.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 01:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
Originally Posted By: CWMI
SC, there is no sacrifice if it is willingly done. It only feels like a sacrifice if one approaches it like, "Yeah, okay, whatever, you win, we'll do it your way."

That is NOT poja.


I have argued this point a million times and IMHO it is a sacrifice regardless of the consequences.

I WILLINGLY and WITHOUT RESENTMENT do not go to "sit down restaurants" very often because my spouse does not like it. It does not bother me and i do it because "i do not want to be the cause of my spouses unhappiness" and no other reason.

However it is still IMHO a sacrifice on my part just because i do not resent it, it is still a sacrifice in my opinion.


It sounds like you carry some resentment over it. I would venture a guess that the resentment comes from martyrdom, how you DON'T go to 'not be the cause of your spouse's unhappiness' and your perception (real or imagined) that your spouse will not do the same for you. You've essentially thrown yourself down in a fit of "fine, we won't do this because it is what YOU choose alone, and I'll be the bigger person here, the peace keeper! Look at how SACRIFICIAL I am!"

Do you know why your H doesn't like sit-down restaurants? Have you discussed ways to address his concerns?
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 01:15 PM
From that same article:
Quote:
But besides logic and passion, there are two other factors that are crucial in creating a successful marriage: Willingness to change and mutual respect.


If only one partner has a willingness to change, then we are back to the original topic of this thread, the renter mindset.

If I were in love with my spouse, I could live with never going to England or Ireland again. I am willing to let it go if it means that I get to have a loving, passionate relationship with someone who loves me enough to do everything in their power NOT to hurt me. As it is, I'm not really in love with my spouse. And my spouse does not love me enough to do everything in his power NOT to hurt me. So I grieve the loss of traveling abroad. And this is just one example. I grieve other losses too. To be fair, so does my spouse. He grieves spending every weekend with his friends. He grieves not having time alone without responsibilities. He is stressed and irritable and depressed all the time and he thinks it's because of some outside factor when in reality it's because he's fighting internally the intimacy that a "real" marriage would require. I feel compassion for his fear, because I feel it too. But I want it badly enough to make changes. He doesn't want it that badly. He's satisfied with "good enough" and doesn't understand why I can't be content with "good enough."

Posted By: Retread Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 01:17 PM
Even if what you do is out of willingness, or even a slight feeling of sacrifice on your part, the important thing is whether it it is the right thing to do. If it is, then do it. Let your actions lead your feelings. That is how you build good habits. Every time you choose the right action, you will feel better about yourself later. You reluctance will melt away, then be replaced by enthusiasm as it brings a positive response from your spouse.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 01:47 PM
Originally Posted By: thinkinitthru66


Even Harley apparently has a willingness to sacrifice and unconditional love as elements of his own marriage.



He is not saying that is good, though. He has said over and over again EVER SINCE that while these are renters practices in dating situations, they won't sustain a marriage. And they don't.

Quote:

One can sacrifice and commit to unconditional love without being “in love” . . . in my world, that’s called being a family smile



Exactly, but we are talking about romantic love here. We don't have romantic love with our children.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 01:56 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

It sounds like you carry some resentment over it. I would venture a guess that the resentment comes from martyrdom, how you DON'T go to 'not be the cause of your spouse's unhappiness' and your perception (real or imagined) that your spouse will not do the same for you. You've essentially thrown yourself down in a fit of "fine, we won't do this because it is what YOU choose alone, and I'll be the bigger person here, the peace keeper! Look at how SACRIFICIAL I am!"

Do you know why your H doesn't like sit-down restaurants? Have you discussed ways to address his concerns?


I do not carry resentment over. I truly do not care and i do not even like the fact that you are trying to say i do, why is it any different than what Mel or Mrs W said and you did not say they resent it.

He does not like them for several reasons, he does not like a crowd, he is a home body and would prefer to be at home or outdoors doing something, he does not like to wait, he does not like how rude the staff can be.

So when we do go we go during a time that is not crowded and where we can have an outdoor patio which helps. But i know that he probably would prefer to not go at all but he does it occasionally for me anyway because he knows it is something that i like to do.

Just as i do things with him occasionally that i might not necessarily like to do but i do not detest them so i go so he can enjoy them once in a while too because we TRULY do not do anything without the other one.

And IMHO that is sacrifice or compromise but either way you are giving up something you like for the betterment of your marriage.

And i am not saying it is bad i just think it is immpossible to "not be the cause of your spouses unhappiness" without some sacrifice.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 02:39 PM
I suppose it could be considered "sacrifice" if you consider quitting smoking or any other bad habit a "sacrifice." When I gave up the Marlboros, I sure felt like I was "sacrificing" at first but the good health that came from quitting, was more than worth giving up a 4 pack a day smoking habit.

It is the same with any other behavior that harms the love in your marriage, it should be EXCHANGED for behavior that does not harm the marriage.

Some behaviors may not be "BAD" on their own, such as eating Mexican food, but it only becomes bad when I try to force my spouse to "compromise" by doing something he hates. A better solution is to find a new restaurant that we BOTH LOVE.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 02:50 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
It is the same with any other behavior that harms the love in your marriage, it should be EXCHANGED for behavior that does not harm the marriage.

Some behaviors may not be "BAD" on their own, such as eating Mexican food, but it only becomes bad when I try to force my spouse to "compromise" by doing something he hates. A better solution is to find a new restaurant that we BOTH LOVE.


Which IMHO is sacrifice.......

And in my case it is not a place that we both love to eat, my h does not like to go out to sit down restaurants period, yet he occasionally will "sacrifice" and go with me because he knows it is something that "I" like even though i do not ask him to "sacrifice", i have told him i can just go with the kids. He WANTS to go with me and do something that i enjoy doing even though it is not his cup of tea so to speak.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 02:55 PM
Mel didn't say it was a sacrifice, that's why I'm seeing it differently, SC.

Have you two been to any really really good restaurants? I have a totally different experience at a $$$$ place than, say, chain restaurants. For food gettin' purposes, on the way to something else, I don't like waiting or crowds or surly waiters either! But for a dining experience, solely for the food, there's nothing quite like a really really great restaurant. Your H probably sees eating as a necessity, and not an experience, right?

Is there anything you can do to help him appreciate the experience of eating? If he's a carnivorous person, you might suggest an evening at a Brazilian steakhouse...gauchos come by your table and slice meat off a spit onto your plate, it's amazing. I'm just saying, he might change his mind about the whole thing if you make it a good experience by not overpaying for cruddy service, and save up to have a fantastic experience instead.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


Which IMHO is sacrifice.......


But wouldn't it be a sacrifice if I continued smoking, because I was sacrificing my health? That is what the real sacrifice was. When I gave up cigarettes, I GAINED good health. When I smoked I SACRIFICED my health.

It is the same with lovebusting behavior. When you practice lovebusters, you are SACRIFICING the compatibility and happiness in your marriage.

Quote:
And in my case it is not a place that we both love to eat, my h does not like to go out to sit down restaurants period, yet he occasionally will "sacrifice" and go with me because he knows it is something that "I" like even though i do not ask him to "sacrifice",


Which is exactly how incompatibility is built. Making your husband do something you like, at HIS EXPENSE is how unhappiness and incompatibility is bred into marriages. I can get my husband to go eat Mexican any day of the week, but the result is that he is UNHAPPY at my expense. And that is what the POJA seeks to prevent. It is bad for marriages, StillCrazy.

Has this practice resulted in a happy marriage for you? How would you define the state of your marriage?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:02 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Mel didn't say it was a sacrifice, that's why I'm seeing it differently, SC.

Have you two been to any really really good restaurants? I have a totally different experience at a $$$$ place than, say, chain restaurants. For food gettin' purposes, on the way to something else, I don't like waiting or crowds or surly waiters either! But for a dining experience, solely for the food, there's nothing quite like a really really great restaurant. Your H probably sees eating as a necessity, and not an experience, right?

Is there anything you can do to help him appreciate the experience of eating? If he's a carnivorous person, you might suggest an evening at a Brazilian steakhouse...gauchos come by your table and slice meat off a spit onto your plate, it's amazing. I'm just saying, he might change his mind about the whole thing if you make it a good experience by not overpaying for cruddy service, and save up to have a fantastic experience instead.


I know that Mel did not call it "sacrifice", however IMHO what Mel described is "sacrifice" and IMHO "sacrifice" is NOT a BAD thing........

And there is no way my h would go for something like that because he would have to do something else he does not like to do which is dress up, that would be worse than just going out to dinner for him far worse and he would resent that i am sure.....
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:09 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


Which IMHO is sacrifice.......


But wouldn't it be a sacrifice if I continued smoking, because I was sacrificing my health? That is what the real sacrifice was. When I gave up cigarettes, I GAINED good health. When I smoked I SACRIFICED my health.

It is the same with lovebusting behavior. When you practice lovebusters, you are SACRIFICING the compatibility and happiness in your marriage.

Quote:
And in my case it is not a place that we both love to eat, my h does not like to go out to sit down restaurants period, yet he occasionally will "sacrifice" and go with me because he knows it is something that "I" like even though i do not ask him to "sacrifice",


Which is exactly how incompatibility is built. Making your husband do something you like, at HIS EXPENSE is how unhappiness and incompatibility is bred into marriages. I can get my husband to go eat Mexican any day of the week, but the result is that he is UNHAPPY at my expense. And that is what the POJA seeks to prevent. It is bad for marriages, StillCrazy.

Has this practice resulted in a happy marriage for you? How would you define the state of your marriage?


I disagree Mel......

This has nothing to do with the state of my marriage or anyone else's for that matter, i just do not believe it is possible to "not be the cause of your spouses unhappiness" without sacrifice is all that is totally it.......

I do not ask my h to go out to "sit down restaurants" with me as i know he does not like them. He will ocassionally say "hey do you want to go out to eat at so and so" and i gladly accept and we have a great time. I am sure that it is a sacrifice to him because i know that he does not like to go to "sit down restaurants'.

Just like i really do not like basketball, but i would go to a basketball game with him if that is something he wanted to do just so i could be with him and i would not resent it in any way shape or form and i might even enjoy myself once i am there, but i would never have gone if i did not "sacrifice" to begin with....

IMHO that should be part of a marriage........
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:11 PM
It sounds, SC, like you're saying that you have a better plan for building marriages than the MB plan. Is that your point?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:15 PM
No my point is that i think it hurts people when you tell them that you can't sacrifice but you can't do anything that will bring your spouse unhapiness because IMHO you can not do one without the other and i think it confuses people including me........
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:23 PM
If I give up drinking, is it a sacrifice?

What about giving up driving sports cars at 100 MPH on the twisties up in the mountains?

Or would it be sacrifice to stop going golfing one Saturday morning while my wife takes care of three sick kids?

We consider something to be a sacrifice when we feel that we are giving up a thing that has value to us in exchange for something of lesser value. Just like we don't feel swindled by the guy at the car dealer when we sign this 5 or 6 year contract to pay for a brand new car, but if we find that the car isn't what we thought we were getting, then we might feel resentful over it later, usually once that newness wears off and the thing starts to need repairs.

When we give up something that is making us happy in some way we weigh its value against what we are getting in return. In the case of giving up some activity that I love "for the good of the marriage" it really only feels like a sacrifice if I don't get something more valuable in return.

Even Dr Harley talks about short term sacrifice for long term benefit being something that should be considered. But where we have the biggest problem is when we have lost that romantic love and aren't getting much of anything in return no matter what we are investing in the relationship and so anything we give feels like sacrifice since we aren't getting anything of value in return.

This folks is the State of Conflict that Dr Harley explains in his basic concepts. Our Takers are demanding to be fed and cared for and we frankly don't care what it costs our spouse as long as we get what we want.

Even for a renter mindset payment for value is something that can't really be seen as sacrifice at all. It only becomes sacrifice when we aren't getting any return on investment.

If doing what is right and good for the marriage feels like sacrifice then the problem isn't in the doing what is right but in the ROI, or more precisely, the lack of ROI.

The reason people have such a hard time with the concept of POJA is that we don't feel in love, don't want to give because we haven't gotten in return and can't imagine ever wanting to give any more because we have already given all we have for no ROI. The reality is simply that our Taker is in charge at that moment and is telling our Giver that we have already given enough and it is now time for our spouse to give for a change.

If one person can begin to use the process and even better if both begin to agree to using the process of POJA, at first it feels like sacrifice, but very quickly it stops feeling that way because we are getting ROI for anything we give up. The goal of POJA is not to make anything happen or to solve all problems or even to find a way to do anything at all. The GOAL of POJA is to keep us in love with each other. POJA stops us from sacrificing and also stops us from taking from each other by allowing our spouse to sacrifice for our benefit.

The MOST important part of marriage is being in love. If we fall out of love with each other nothing else in the marriage works, matters or has any significance in our lives. It was why we got married and will be why we stay married in the long run. It is the whole point of MB and is the goal of the entire program. When we feel in love and we are in a state of Intimacy, we don't even keep score as to who is giving and who is taking because it stops being about giving and taking and starts to be about giving and getting instead.

Our Taker stops expecting anything, even in return for what we are giving when we are already getting what we want and need. When our Love Banks are full what something costs us has very little meaning. It is only when we constantly withdraw love units that we bring our spouse's Taker out and then everything we do becomes an uphill battle.

Seldom is it a great big gigantic huge one shot love buster that does us in, BTW. What happens instead is that we get lazy and start repeating the same "little" things over and over again. The day to day habits we fall into do the damage and not the one shot argument with each other. It is my drooping socks on the floor every night instead of putting them in the hamper or her setting up something with her sister for my weekend off instead of asking me if I would like to do something. These are the things that make us fall out of love and make everything we do feel like sacrifice unless we can see a clear immediate benefit to our own Taker mentality.

Real sacrifice seldom even feels like sacrifice. It is not getting what we want or expect that feels like we are giving while getting nothing in return. We give up little things in an effort to avoid confrontation or we hide things from our spouse because we want to remain conflict free. Since our troubles and complaints go unanswered, mainly because they have gone unexpressed, we start to resent having to give up all this stuff for nothing coming back to us.

Time for work...

Mark
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:27 PM
It's the mindset, SC. It's the belief that to be compatible means that your spouse likes what you like, instead of believing the real definition of compatibility which is that you like the same things, or at least enough of the same things to have an enjoyable life together.

So long as one (or both) spouse focuses on the things they can't do, there will be incompatibility.
Posted By: Retread Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:33 PM
A Short Inspirational Poem
Watch Your…
By Frank Outlaw

Watch your thoughts,
for they become words.
Watch your words,
for they become actions.
Watch your actions,
for they become habits.
Watch your habits,
for they become character.
Watch your character,
for it becomes your destiny.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy




I do not ask my h to go out to "sit down restaurants" with me as i know he does not like them. He will ocassionally say "hey do you want to go out to eat at so and so" and i gladly accept and we have a great time. I am sure that it is a sacrifice to him because i know that he does not like to go to "sit down restaurants'.


Again, this behavior is what leads to incompatibility and unhappiness. Since you know he doesn't like eating out, you should find something you know you BOTH like to do and not accept his offer. Just because he is willing to sacrifice, does not mean it is good for your marriage. In fact, his offer to sacrifice is bad for your marriage because it is a renters mentality. People who sacrifice KEEP SCORE. And when the score is uneven, they tend to punish the other spouse to extract the payment.

IT IS BAD. Even if you both agree to practice WIN-LOSE, your agreement does not compensate for the damage caused by WIN-LOSE. The fact is that you should not engage in practices that make your spouse unhappy IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A HAPPY MARRIAGE.

And yes, the state of your marriage is very relevant to this discussion, SC. Because if you are going to contradict MB concepts, that begs the question: how has that worked for you? The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:38 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
It's the mindset, SC. It's the belief that to be compatible means that your spouse likes what you like, instead of believing the real definition of compatibility which is that you like the same things, or at least enough of the same things to have an enjoyable life together.

So long as one (or both) spouse focuses on the things they can't do, there will be incompatibility.



I do not believe me and my h are incompatible. My only issue with my h is that he does not see anything wrong with being friends with members of the opposite sex the same as the majority of posters on this board. That is my only reason for not working on recovering my marriage with my H right now at this time and place.

I do not have a negative mindset about "sacrifice", it is MB that has a negative mindset about sacrifice. I think sacrifice is a GOOD thing.

I just do not understand the concept of "not doing anything that causes my spouse unhappiness" AND "sacrifice is a bad thing", i do not think it is possible to do one without the other. And it really confuses me when it said over and over again. And i am sure it confuses others as well because like i said IMHO it is not possible to one without the other......
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:41 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy




I do not ask my h to go out to "sit down restaurants" with me as i know he does not like them. He will ocassionally say "hey do you want to go out to eat at so and so" and i gladly accept and we have a great time. I am sure that it is a sacrifice to him because i know that he does not like to go to "sit down restaurants'.


Again, this behavior is what leads to incompatibility and unhappiness. Since you know he doesn't like eating out, you should find something you know you BOTH like to do and not accept his offer. Just because he is willing to sacrifice, does not mean it is good for your marriage. In fact, his offer to sacrifice is bad for your marriage because it is a renters mentality. People who sacrifice KEEP SCORE. And when the score is uneven, they tend to punish the other spouse to extract the payment.

IT IS BAD. Even if you both agree to practice WIN-LOSE, your agreement does not compensate for the damage caused by WIN-LOSE. The fact is that you should not engage in practices that make your spouse unhappy IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A HAPPY MARRIAGE.

And yes, the state of your marriage is very relevant to this discussion, SC. Because if you are going to contradict MB concepts, that begs the question: how has that worked for you? The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.


I still disagree Mel and i always will no matter what you or any other poster says.

And IMHO i think you "sacrifice" in your marriage on a daily basis as well by your description because i do not think it is possible to do one without the other.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy

And IMHO i think you "sacrifice" in your marriage on a daily basis as well by your description because i do not think it is possible to do one without the other.


This is a "compatible marriage," SC? crazy Here is what you wrote last November before you moved to the Divorce forum, after years of coming here talking about your incompatible, unhappy marriage:

Originally Posted By: StillCrazy
We have decided to quit working on the marriage and go our separate ways. However because of a lot of things it is easier to stay in the same house until we have to move out.

I have moved into our ODD old room and we are living separately under the same roof as of this past weekend.

He refuses to leave and so do i so there is not going to be a change in that regards. What is the best way to handle living under the same roof?
here

It's one thing to disagree with a tried and true concept that really works, but when your own method doesn’t even work for you, that should be pointed out. Your method has not worked for you, SC.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Mark1952

When we give up something that is making us happy in some way we weigh its value against what we are getting in return. In the case of giving up some activity that I love "for the good of the marriage" it really only feels like a sacrifice if I don't get something more valuable in return.

Mark


IMHO this is incorrect the value of the return has nothing to do with the fact that it is a sacrifice......
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:47 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy

And IMHO i think you "sacrifice" in your marriage on a daily basis as well by your description because i do not think it is possible to do one without the other.


This is a "compatible marriage," SC? crazy Here is what you wrote last November before you moved to the Divorce forum, after years of coming here talking about your incompatible, unhappy marriage:

Originally Posted By: StillCrazy
We have decided to quit working on the marriage and go our separate ways. However because of a lot of things it is easier to stay in the same house until we have to move out.

I have moved into our ODD old room and we are living separately under the same roof as of this past weekend.

He refuses to leave and so do i so there is not going to be a change in that regards. What is the best way to handle living under the same roof?


It's one thing to disagree with a tried and true concept that really works, but when your own method doesn’t even work for you, that should be pointed out. Your method has not worked for you, SC.


Read my other post Mel......
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:47 PM
It is possible to not do anything that hurts your spouse without sacrificing what you want, if what you want is a happy, mutually satisfying, compatible marriage. Above anything else: opposite sex friendships, eating out, material possessions, trips, etc.

IF you want those things ABOVE wanting a good marriage, then I can see why someone would think they were sacrificing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


IMHO this is incorrect the value of the return has nothing to do with the fact that it is a sacrifice......


SC, if sacrifice is such a good thing, why has that not helped your own marriage?
Posted By: Telly Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:51 PM
Still_crazy,

I understand where folks are coming from. They are trying to tell you that if you find things to replace the things you are giving up for your husband... things that truly make you both happy... then you will no longer feel like those other things were sacrifices.

It's like if I give up cheeseburgers, and find that the new brand of veggie burgers tastes just as good--even better. Then you'd hear me saying "I don't even miss it" vs. "I've had to give up burgers!"

Or... let's say I really like going to restaurants, but my husband doesn't. We decide that I'm going to have one night a month with the girls, and will go to my favorite restaurants that night... And then, my husband and I take up ballroom dance or something--and I end up feeling like I don't even miss going to restaurants with him.

If you haven't had the experience of your husband negotiating things with you to the point where you both are genuinely happy, then Of COURSE you are sacrificing. I mean, it sounds like you simply no longer go to sit down restaurants, rather than talk together about what you're going to do instead.

****
Now, having said all that--let me tell you that the very thing you are talking about (the issue of sacrifice being something that can be a good part of marriage) is the very reason my husband does not like MB.

He was at a talk with Dr. Harley (Senior) and followed up with him after the talk to discuss the issue of sacrifice. He was not happy with the conversation, because he feels much like you.

I think the most important way to overcome this discrepancy is to really understand the policy of joint agreement.

You are not to do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse... So if your husband isn't enthusiastic about not going to sit-down restaurants, and if you are not enthusiastic about NOT going to sit down restaurants, then you need to come up with something that you can both feel good about.

Right now, you feel good about sacrificing--but ultimately, it's better if EVERYTHING is subject to the POJA. That way, you are of the habit of coming to arrangements that you both feel good about, rather than being in the habit of sacrificing.

The Policy of Joint Agreement is still new to my husband. We talk about it all the time, because one of the other of us is used to sacrificing.

Having done it both ways, I am now seeing that wanting "both of us to be enthusiastic" is the best way to go.

And even though you may be willing to sacrifice for your husband, and even feel fine about it... don't you think it would be better if you could find arrangement you could BOTH feel enthusiastic about? Something that woudl completely remove the feeling of sacrifice from your relationship?

I mean, I don't feel like I'm sacrificing great sex outside of marriage (even if I am) as long as I'm having great sex with my husband, right? I don't feel like I'm sacrificing great conversations and flirtation with men outside of marriage (even though I am) as long as I'm having those things with my husband, right?

The idea is to POJA EVERYTHING. Not because sacrifice is BAD, but because both couples being enthusiastic with all arrangements is BETTER in terms of feeling love for one another.

Does this make any sense?
Posted By: Retread Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:52 PM
It's the same as changing the mindset about saving money rather than spending money. As long as you want to spend money, you will see saving and investment as a sacrifice which interferes with your immediate pleasure. But when you learn to enjoy having money work for you instead of your working for money, you will look forward to saving and investing, and see spending as a sacrifice that you must sometimes make.

As CWMI said, when you see that doing things together is to your benefit, and your happiness in the long run, rather than just your spouse's immediate happiness, you will look forward to the opportunities to do things with them.
Posted By: Telly Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:53 PM
PS. I'm not sure that the quote "Never do anything that makes your spouse unhappy" is as clear as the one that says:

"Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 03:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
[

I do not ask my h to go out to "sit down restaurants" with me as i know he does not like them. He will ocassionally say "hey do you want to go out to eat at so and so" and i gladly accept and we have a great time. I am sure that it is a sacrifice to him because i know that he does not like to go to "sit down restaurants'.


Another solution would be to find something that makes you BOTH happy. Rather than doing something that makes you happy at his expense, a better solution would be to find something that makes you BOTH happy by brainstorming solutions. If he doesn't like to eat out, then you should NEVER eat out together. A better solution might be to make a nice dinner at home together and play some board game you both like.

But using this strategy of WIN-LOSE is what leads to an unhappy marriage and before long, your H will be looking for reasons NOT to do anything with you because that time together is spent doing things that makes him unhappy.

That is sort of a moot point if you are still splitting up, but if you were to try and recover the marriage, that would be the approach I would take.
Posted By: Retread Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 04:00 PM
"Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse."
and
"Never do anything that makes your spouse unhappy"

... DO NOT mean:

"Never do anything without YOUR enthusiastic agreement."
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 04:03 PM
They do mean that, Retread. Typo! smile
Posted By: Retread Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 04:15 PM
No, I disagree about everything having to be without reservation. The goal is for both of you to enthusiastically agree to everything each of you do, especially together. But to get there, each of you is going to have to do things you may not really want to do, in order to serve the happiness of the other. It may have to began as very unilateral. Then it may progress to trading, but if your hearts and minds are on the bigger goal, it will eventually become a habit. You will learn to enjoy things you did not enjoy before, and the two of you will find more things to do which you both enjoy.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 04:42 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
It is possible to not do anything that hurts your spouse without sacrificing what you want, if what you want is a happy, mutually satisfying, compatible marriage. Above anything else: opposite sex friendships, eating out, material possessions, trips, etc.

IF you want those things ABOVE wanting a good marriage, then I can see why someone would think they were sacrificing.


I do not want any of those things above a good marriage i prefer keeping my spouse happy, but i still see it as a sacrifice..........
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 04:47 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
[

I do not ask my h to go out to "sit down restaurants" with me as i know he does not like them. He will ocassionally say "hey do you want to go out to eat at so and so" and i gladly accept and we have a great time. I am sure that it is a sacrifice to him because i know that he does not like to go to "sit down restaurants'.


Another solution would be to find something that makes you BOTH happy. Rather than doing something that makes you happy at his expense, a better solution would be to find something that makes you BOTH happy by brainstorming solutions. If he doesn't like to eat out, then you should NEVER eat out together. A better solution might be to make a nice dinner at home together and play some board game you both like.

But using this strategy of WIN-LOSE is what leads to an unhappy marriage and before long, your H will be looking for reasons NOT to do anything with you because that time together is spent doing things that makes him unhappy.

That is sort of a moot point if you are still splitting up, but if you were to try and recover the marriage, that would be the approach I would take.


Regardless of what approach we take one of us will have to "sacrifice" for the betterment of the marriage and it is okay if we do that.......

And we have been together for 25 years and i do not think he resents eating out with me every once in a while...... especially since it is at his suggestion......

The issues that my h and i have do not have anything to do with sacrificing.........

Neither of us have a problem with sacrificing...........

He has a problem with thinking it is okay to be friends with members of the opposite sex and i do not think it is okay therefore i have decided to move on rather than try to change his mind on men and women "being friends".
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 04:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Telly
Still_crazy,

I understand where folks are coming from. They are trying to tell you that if you find things to replace the things you are giving up for your husband... things that truly make you both happy... then you will no longer feel like those other things were sacrifices.

It's like if I give up cheeseburgers, and find that the new brand of veggie burgers tastes just as good--even better. Then you'd hear me saying "I don't even miss it" vs. "I've had to give up burgers!"

Or... let's say I really like going to restaurants, but my husband doesn't. We decide that I'm going to have one night a month with the girls, and will go to my favorite restaurants that night... And then, my husband and I take up ballroom dance or something--and I end up feeling like I don't even miss going to restaurants with him.

If you haven't had the experience of your husband negotiating things with you to the point where you both are genuinely happy, then Of COURSE you are sacrificing. I mean, it sounds like you simply no longer go to sit down restaurants, rather than talk together about what you're going to do instead.

Does this make any sense?


I do not do girls nights out and he does not do guys nights out, we do it together or we do not do it and it has been that way our entire marriage by our choice.......

And i do simply no longer go to sit down restaurants except on rare occasions that he asks me to go or i go with my kids but even then i would prefer that my H be with me and i miss him being there and enjoying the dinner with us as a family......

But guess what, it is okay, i do not resent the fact that i can't go to sit down restaurants, it is not a big deal to me, i do other things that make me happy instead.

However IMHO i am still sacrificing for the betterment of my marriage..... and i am okay with it, it is not a BAD thing......
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 04:58 PM
Why are you tolerating same-sex friendships from a known cheater? No wonder you feel sacrificial. You've laid down with WELCOME printed across your back.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 04:59 PM
THAT kind of sacrifice is DEADLY to your marriage.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:09 PM
I am not tolerating same sex friendships.....

That is why i am currently not working on recovering my marriage.....

Still doesn't change anything about my opinion to posters when it comes to "sacrifice".

And i do not feel "sacrificail" as you put it, i do not feel BAD about sacrificing one little bit and i think it is a MUST in any marriage......
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
I am not tolerating same sex friendships.....

That is why i am currently not working on recovering my marriage.....

Still doesn't change anything about my opinion to posters when it comes to "sacrifice".

And i do not feel "sacrificail" as you put it, i do not feel BAD about sacrificing one little bit and i think it is a MUST in any marriage......


It is a must in a failing marriage.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
I am not tolerating same sex friendships.....

That is why i am currently not working on recovering my marriage.....

Still doesn't change anything about my opinion to posters when it comes to "sacrifice".

And i do not feel "sacrificail" as you put it, i do not feel BAD about sacrificing one little bit and i think it is a MUST in any marriage......
OK ....

Putting
"sacrifice" aside, for a moment.

Look at the other parts of the Renter/Buyer side-by-side comparison.
Are there other parts of this that you fundamentally disagree with (besides the sacrifice) ?



Quote:
Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:14 PM
And my h does not truly have "friendships" with members of the opposite sex and never really has....

He just does not think there is a problem "being friendly" with members of the opposite sex and i do.....

I do not think that married people should "be friendly" with members of the opposite sex PERIOD....

You certainly do not have to be rude, but you also do not have to be "friendly" either.....

And this is also something that comes up on this board time and time again.

Can men and women be "friends" and a lot of posters here seem to think that they can and so does my h....

I however do not and i know longer wish to continue recovering if we can not even agree on that one simple thing......
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
I am not tolerating same sex friendships.....

That is why i am currently not working on recovering my marriage.....

Still doesn't change anything about my opinion to posters when it comes to "sacrifice".

And i do not feel "sacrificail" as you put it, i do not feel BAD about sacrificing one little bit and i think it is a MUST in any marriage......


It is a must in a failing marriage.


I disagree..........
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy



I disagree..........


I know you disagree. You disagree because, you are a Renter. Sacrifice is more than "OK" with Renters.
In fact, Renters place a high value on sacrifice.

But, putting that aside for now, look at the other descriptions of a Renter arrangement.
Do you also place a high value on the other Renter agreements?

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:25 PM
Being a Renter is not a bad thing.
But, both spouses becoming Buyers (eventually) is a way better Marriage.


Quote:


According to Harley

most happily married couples have worked their way up from Freeloaders to Renters and finally to Buyers.

He says the problem arises when partners do not eventually become Buyers.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
I am not tolerating same sex friendships.....

That is why i am currently not working on recovering my marriage.....

Still doesn't change anything about my opinion to posters when it comes to "sacrifice".

And i do not feel "sacrificail" as you put it, i do not feel BAD about sacrificing one little bit and i think it is a MUST in any marriage......
OK ....

Putting
"sacrifice" aside, for a moment.

Look at the other parts of the Renter/Buyer side-by-side comparison.
Are there other parts of this that you fundamentally disagree with (besides the sacrifice) ?



Quote:
Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.


Me personally, I do not like labels at all.......

I do not believe people all fit into little categories and that there is too much outside influences on all of us to be labeled as anything.....

You can have parts in one thing and parts from another but more in one than the other so where does that leave you.....

By looking at your list i believe that my h and i both are more BUYERS than anything but as i said i am sure we have some traits that fall under RENTER as well, and IMHO as do all of us..........
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:36 PM
For me, the harder part of the process (Renter to Buyer) was this ...

Quote:
Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.


I was very much focused on "fairness" or "justice" ...
It took me a long time to change this part, for myself.
This required an attitude adjustment. (mine)

And, I think this is very important point to make in the flow of this thread/conversation.

ATTITUDE ADJUSTMENT (ours)

For each of us who is actually using Harley principles to improve our marriage we must require an attitude adjustment
in ourselves !

I very much see this as a process.
And, the process, is a winning formula.

The Renter to Buyer is a development.
It is a growing process.
It requires us to think new ways.

Not often easy.

Harder for some people than others.

I can say, I can usually tell who is going to be the more successful at this, the MBers who mostly write about their own behaviors vs the MBers who mostly write about their spouses behaviors.(making a generalization not a judgment)
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


I do not believe people all fit into little categories and that there is too much outside influences on all of us to be labeled as anything.....



Why not simply state that you reject the Harley methods in their entirety, and move on to another discussion?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:44 PM
Well i believe

"We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful"

I do not expect anything from my h in return for my sacrifices, i do it because i want to and no other reason, because i enjoy making him happy, it makes me happy to make him happy....

So if making him happy means i have to go to a basketball game now and then, it is not a big deal and i do not expect him to do something in return because i went to the basketball game.....

It is about making the other person happy, not at your expense but because you want to.....

Either way IMHO it is still sacrificing and it is NOT a BAD thing.........
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


I do not believe people all fit into little categories and that there is too much outside influences on all of us to be labeled as anything.....



Why not simply state that you reject the Harley methods in their entirety, and move on to another discussion?


Because that would be a lie.......
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


Because that would be a lie.......



Why not simply state that you reject FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES of the Harley methods, and move on to another discussion?
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:56 PM
I reject one fundamental principle of the Harleys method....

Why not just ask me to leave your thread if that is what you want.....

I am not trying to be argumentative, i am as i have stated several time confused by this and i think other posters probably are as well because once again

IMHO it is IMPOSSIBLE to do both......
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


"We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful"


But your marriage is not successful, so apparently you don't. You wrote this in November when you had your thread moved to the Divorce Forum:

Originally Posted By: StillCrazy
We have decided to quit working on the marriage and go our separate ways. However because of a lot of things it is easier to stay in the same house until we have to move out. I have moved into our ODD old room and we are living separately under the same roof as of this past weekend.


Do you think Dr Harley was right when he said this in the mission statement at the top of every page?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 05:59 PM
How can you call something that's done 'not at your expense' and done 'willingly' a SACRIFICE?

Sacrifice, by definition, means giving something up, typically for the greater good.

To feel you have sacrificed means you feel you have given something up.

To GIVE for the greater good is not a sacrifice. It's missing the operative word, UP.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:03 PM
And as i have said many times Mel my issues with my marriage have nothing whatsoever to do wuth sacrificing.....

They have everything to do with the fact that my h does not see a problem with "opposite sex friendships" along with a majority of posters on this very board......

So you can bring up my thread all you want.......
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:05 PM
I disagree that the majority of posters on this board support opposite sex friendships. I have not seen that. Not at all. YOU should be savvy enough to know that opposite-sex friendships are not sanctioned by MB and regard that advice accordingly.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:05 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
How can you call something that's done 'not at your expense' and done 'willingly' a SACRIFICE?

Sacrifice, by definition, means giving something up, typically for the greater good.

To feel you have sacrificed means you feel you have given something up.

To GIVE for the greater good is not a sacrifice. It's missing the operative word, UP.


Read your own definition of the word sacrifice....... typically for the greater good...........
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
I reject one fundamental principle of the Harleys method....

Why not just ask me to leave your thread if that is what you want.....

I am not trying to be argumentative.


Yes, I think it would be an excellent idea for you to start a NEW thread, where you discuss YOUR methods for improving marriages.

My intent, is to discuss Harley's methods, in particular the book

Buyers/Renters/Freeloaders.
(an excellent read, I recommend to one and all)

I would very much prefer to help people understand the principles in the book, and not debate the principles with posters who disagree with the fundamentals.

So, please take your debate and disagreement of the fundamentals to your own thread. Thank you.

Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:08 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
I disagree that the majority of posters on this board support opposite sex friendships. I have not seen that. Not at all. YOU should be savvy enough to know that opposite-sex friendships are not sanctioned by MB and regard that advice accordingly.


I have seen it on the SAA board more times than i can count..........

And a lot of the posters do not think there is anything wrong with being friends with members of the opposite sex as long as you have EPs in place.....

I do not think you should be friends with members of the opposite sex no matter what.....
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:09 PM
To GIVE for the greater good is not a sacrifice.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:09 PM
It's the giving UP.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
And as i have said many times Mel my issues with my marriage have nothing whatsoever to do wuth sacrificing.....


No matter how you spin it, SC, sacrifice has not made your marriage a happy place. Like Dr Harley noted, those who disagree with his position are usually people who have not resolved their own marriage problems. You certainly demonstrate that truth since your own marriage is ending.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
I reject one fundamental principle of the Harleys method....

Why not just ask me to leave your thread if that is what you want.....

I am not trying to be argumentative.


Yes, I think it would be an excellent idea for you to start a NEW thread, where you discuss YOUR methods for improving marriages.

My intent, is to discuss Harley's methods, in particular the book

Buyers/Renters/Freeloaders.
(an excellent read, I recommend to one and all)

I would very much prefer to help people understand the principles in the book, and not debate the principles with posters who disagree with the fundamentals.

So, please take your debate and disagreement of the fundamentals to your own thread. Thank you.



You do not think my debate will help others to understand your point?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
[

You do not think my debate will help others to understand your point?


You are just disrupting this thread. Why not show some respect and take it to your own thread?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


You do not think my debate will help others to understand your point?


No. I do not.
I am unappreciative of this thread becoming a debate about your ideas.
Please take your debate about your ideas to a new thread.
Thank you.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:12 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
And as i have said many times Mel my issues with my marriage have nothing whatsoever to do wuth sacrificing.....


No matter how you spin it, SC, sacrifice has not made your marriage a happy place. Like Dr Harley noted, those who disagree with his position are usually people who have not resolved their own marriage problems. You certainly demonstrate that truth since your own marriage is ending.


My marriage is ending by MY CHOICE mel not for any other reason........


It just kills you that i can make a point so all you can do is just be nasty to people......
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:14 PM
I am trying to make a point to help other posters such as myself that disagree with the idea of "sacrifice" being a bad thing....
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:15 PM
I've not seen it, but I do not spend much time there, but I think the people on SAA who promote opposite-sex friendships on that board are wrong and harmful.

I think promoting sacrifice on this board is harmful, and confusing to people who are trying to live a MB lifestyle. I know I have been thoroughly confused by people promoting that I sit by and be nauseated by my H getting a pedicure if that's what he wants...but it's NOT MB.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy



It just kills you that i can make a point so all you can do is just be nasty to people......


She asked you politely to take it to your thread, SC. It is not "nasty" to point out that your own methods have not worked in your own marriage. If you are going to continually dispute Dr Harley's basic concepts, folks need to know how that has worked for you.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:16 PM
SC, you have made no point at all in how how have a successful marriage with your stance on sacrifice.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:17 PM
The Harleys are very clear about "sacrifice". From what I read, they say that "sacrifice" leads to "resentment". That's a basic POJA principle yes?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
I am trying to make a point to help other posters such as myself that disagree with the idea of "sacrifice" being a bad thing....



"Help" them do what, SC? Get a divorce like you? You are ending your marriage... crazy
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:17 PM
Well if that is what MB is then maybe Pep is right and i do not want anything to do with it......
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
I am trying to make a point to help other posters such as myself that disagree with the idea of "sacrifice" being a bad thing....


I am unappreciative of this thread becoming a debate about your ideas.
Posted By: Still_Crazy Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:19 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy



It just kills you that i can make a point so all you can do is just be nasty to people......


She asked you politely to take it to your thread, SC. It is not "nasty" to point out that your own methods have not worked in your own marriage. If you are doing to continually dispute Dr Harley's basic concepts, folks need to know how that has worked for you.


However you pointed this out several times before Pep even posted.......
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:20 PM
Still Crazy, PLEASE take it to your own thread.
Posted By: MBsurvivor Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:22 PM
Stop with the disruption and let this thread get back on track!
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:24 PM
Question re/ friends of the opposite sex:

I use the word "friend" sparingly. I do have acquaintances...none of whom I speak with about things that my husband could not witness / hear. Some are male & some are female. IMO, certain female friends are very damaging to the marriage. By the same token, some women have had lesbian affairs. Doesn't the "friend of the opposite sex" thing depend lesss on the gender and more on whether the friend is a mutual friend of the married couple and that the friend respects the marrital realtionship?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Being a Renter is not a bad thing.
But, both spouses becoming Buyers (eventually) is a way better Marriage.


Quote:


According to Harley

most happily married couples have worked their way up from Freeloaders to Renters and finally to Buyers.

He says the problem arises when partners do not eventually become Buyers.


Ok ... back to the reason I began this thread.
To discuss and learn (together) how to apply Harley fundamentals to our marriages ....

This is a process, the way I understand it.
It's not a one time decision, but a daily process.


I have not read, and I am asking if anyone else has read, where Dr Harley discusses a time line where the majority of marriages (working MB) process from Renter to Buyer.

Anyone? What has been your experience (personally) of processing from Renter to Buyer .... Fast? Slow? Back and forth?

I know for a fact, that our M processed from Renter to Buyer at a rather "relaxed" grin pace, as a result of reading/application of Marriage Builder materials.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:39 PM
Quote:

"Marriage means that each spouse is commited to make a GREATER effort to care for each other than they were making BEFORE marriage, a GREATER effort to meet each other's intimate needs."


Speaking from my personal experience, THIS particular fundamental was a revelation for me !!!

I had become lazy in my M.
Yes.
LAZY.
I am ashamed to say .... blush My internal dialogue went something like this:

"Now that we are married, you must love me no matter how I treat you."
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:41 PM
sacrificing in M = a renter, I'd never thought that way, prolly thought the opposite actually ...... sacrificing = in for the long haul = buyer. crazy

Since I consider myself the Queen of Resentment, I see now how my sacrificing damaged my M.
It prevented me from RH, cuz I thought that would damage my M.
By not being RH, I stewed, I DJ'd, SD and AO'd and became very bitter and resentful. Ooooh, I sound like an awful person don't I, but really I'm not, lol, just being honest.

So, in this state of resentment, I can look back and see how I also became super sensitive to some of my H's actions and decisions in other areas of our M, when in fact I should have been more understanding of his needs.
I got to the point that I would think 'hey, you owe me, why can't you just do this or that for me, or stop doing this or that!'

I don't have it all figured out yet, but I didn't ever see that my sacrificing, no matter what the level of it, was affecting my attitude towards my H.

Like a 'silent killer' you know.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Vittoria


I don't have it all figured out yet, but I didn't ever see that my sacrificing, no matter what the level of it, was affecting my attitude towards my H.

Like a 'silent killer' you know.

kiss

Thank you for sharing this very important part of your personal story.

THIS is exactly what I am talking about !
Read/think/learn .... and then DO something different .... something that actually WORKS to build a more successful marriage.

I LOVE this !!!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 06:58 PM
Another area, where I suspect many of us fail to do a good job BEFORE learning MB fundamentals ...

Listening to our spouse criticize us ..... with a Buyer's ear.


Quote:
Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.


It's sooooooooo naughty tempting to make criticism a reason to ARGUE instead of a reason to MAKE necessary changes.


MAN, this was so difficult for me, when I knew, how wonderful I personally was ... I mean, really, WHY would my H want me to change when I am so fabulous "as is"?
rotflmao

Lord, have mercy!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:02 PM
Pepper, how about when the criticism comes as a response to our criticism of our spouse?

For instance: I tell my H that I don't like it when he loans out our vehicle against my will, and he criticizes me for being controlling and not trusting his judgment?

Is that a case for me to look at my actions and change?
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:07 PM
Curious as to what the answer for this one is.

Maybe reframing it as a request: Please do not loan out our vehicles.

OR a statement: I am uncomortable when you loan out our vehicles.

What do the vets say?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:10 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Pepper, how about when the criticism comes as a response to our criticism of our spouse?

For instance: I tell my H that I don't like it when he loans out our vehicle against my will, and he criticizes me for being controlling and not trusting his judgment?

Is that a case for me to look at my actions and change?


I would agree that you are making an attempt to control what happens to your automobile, and I would agree that you do not trust his judgment about others he trusts to drive the car.

In order to POJA, you must begin with honesty.

Yes, you feel a loss of control over something important, like who drives your vehicle.
Yes, you feel your desires and needs are being ignored when H makes an independent decision without consulting you first.

It's a fact.
You feel the need to have a "say" about who borrows the car. And when.
It is a fact you feel H has not considered your wishes when he makes independent decisions over such an important matter.

Then, come up with a solution where both of you are happy.

Go back to the first page of this thread, and look at the conditions underwhich POJA must be made "safe" for both of you.

Then, post again.


Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:11 PM
Guidelines for POJA

Guideline 1

Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.

...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.

...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.

...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~

Guideline 2

Identify the problem from both perspectives.

Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.

Harley says

Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.

It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.

(~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up*)

Guideline 3

Brainstorm with abandon

This is the creative part.

Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.


The goal is to please both of you.

Harley says

The secret to understanding your partner is to think like your partner's Taker thinks.

It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.



VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***

Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:16 PM
Makes perfect sense.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:17 PM
Originally Posted By: ChrisInNOVA
Makes perfect sense.


Yes, but it does take practice.
And, in our M, I have recognized there is a POJA learning curve. (mine) grin


Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:18 PM
Originally Posted By: ChrisInNOVA
Makes perfect sense.


Quote:
Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:22 PM
I would say that the biggest obstacle to my applying the MB principles is that I do not believe I can meet my wife's needs. When I think about embracing Radical Honesty and POJA, I believe we would fail. Because we would never be able to brainstorms solutions where we are both mutually enthusiastic. Because I fear I won't be able to satisfy her minimum requirements. So I am not enthusiastic about even trying. If I were honest, I would tell her to leave me for someone else who will. And can.

I don't think I am alone in having this fear.

Just saw your last post. That is me. No idea what I want. No idea what I am willing to give.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Originally Posted By: ChrisInNOVA
Makes perfect sense.


Yes, but it does take practice.
And, in our M, I have recognized there is a POJA learning curve. (mine) grin




I would like some practice doing this in a conversation.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:26 PM
Pep, we set ground rules where we weren't going to step on each other while we figured this out. Then we identified the problem: he wants to be seen as the guy who'd do anything for ya! and I have a need to not feel taken advantage of. We brainstormed a few solutions: any loaning would be done by joint agreement (meaning there is no Yes to others unless there's a Yes together), extended loaning was out of the question, and doing FOR instead of giving TO was a preferred way to deal with it.

Then he called and asked how I felt about loaning it out, I asked what for? He said he didn't know. I said find out and then we can decide and then he came home without the truck and threatened to divorce me for being a control freak. laugh

SH told me to let him handle it. I'm going to have to be able to handle it on my own eventually.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:34 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit


Just saw your last post. That is me. No idea what I want. No idea what I am willing to give.


This is fantastic! smile
It is always fantastic when we identify where we need to make improvements!

We can't begin to improve until we identify where we need improvement.
And, we cannot be the best spouse possible, without introspection.

Back to the basics.
When we agree to something reluctantly, we are being dishonest in our marriage !

POJA begins with personal honesty.
This calls upon our integrity.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Mark1952


We consider something to be a sacrifice when we feel that we are giving up a thing that has value to us in exchange for something of lesser value.


So pithy.
So true.



Quote:
The reason people have such a hard time with the concept of POJA is that we don't feel in love, don't want to give because we haven't gotten in return and can't imagine ever wanting to give any more because we have already given all we have for no ROI. The reality is simply that our Taker is in charge at that moment and is telling our Giver that we have already given enough and it is now time for our spouse to give for a change.

If one person can begin to use the process and even better if both begin to agree to using the process of POJA, at first it feels like sacrifice, but very quickly it stops feeling that way because we are getting ROI for anything we give up. The goal of POJA is not to make anything happen or to solve all problems or even to find a way to do anything at all. The GOAL of POJA is to keep us in love with each other. POJA stops us from sacrificing and also stops us from taking from each other by allowing our spouse to sacrifice for our benefit.

The MOST important part of marriage is being in love. If we fall out of love with each other nothing else in the marriage works, matters or has any significance in our lives. It was why we got married and will be why we stay married in the long run. It is the whole point of MB and is the goal of the entire program. When we feel in love and we are in a state of Intimacy, we don't even keep score as to who is giving and who is taking because it stops being about giving and taking and starts to be about giving and getting instead.

Our Taker stops expecting anything, even in return for what we are giving when we are already getting what we want and need. When our Love Banks are full what something costs us has very little meaning. It is only when we constantly withdraw love units that we bring our spouse's Taker out and then everything we do becomes an uphill battle.

Seldom is it a great big gigantic huge one shot love buster that does us in, BTW. What happens instead is that we get lazy and start repeating the same "little" things over and over again. The day to day habits we fall into do the damage and not the one shot argument with each other. It is my drooping socks on the floor every night instead of putting them in the hamper or her setting up something with her sister for my weekend off instead of asking me if I would like to do something. These are the things that make us fall out of love and make everything we do feel like sacrifice unless we can see a clear immediate benefit to our own Taker mentality.


What does "ROI" stand for?
Drawing a blank, Markie.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:49 PM
Return On Investment.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband

When we agree to something reluctantly, we are being dishonest in our marriage !

POJA begins with personal honesty.

This calls upon our integrity.



Very simple and very clear.

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:50 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Return On Investment.

doh2

THANK YOU !
kiss
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Retread
A Short Inspirational Poem
Watch Your…
By Frank Outlaw

Watch your thoughts,
for they become words.
Watch your words,
for they become actions.
Watch your actions,
for they become habits.
Watch your habits,
for they become character.
Watch your character,
for it becomes your destiny.


Thank you!
kiss
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 07:58 PM
Mark !!!!!!!



kiss
Quote:
The GOAL of POJA is to keep us in love with each other.
Posted By: Vittoria Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 08:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other.

And ...... this can lead to both spouses eventually falling into victim roles, or feeling like they are victims anyway.
One spouse can feel that they have compromised more than the other, or that the score is uneven .... leads to resentment or entitlement.

Resentment cuz one feels like they have given in more,
and the other can feel entitlement cuz they have given so much that they are deserving of some happiness.

Both sets of thinking come at the expense of the other and the M.

CWMI ..... I feel for you, I have one of those H's that want to make everyone happy, wants to be liked by everyyyyyyone!
He likes to use POJA, but not when it involves conflict with someone else, your example of lending the car out would be an example.
My H would not want to say 'no' to that person needing the car.
This is an ongoing struggle that we are sorting through.

I see this as part of the renter to buyer thing, not sure which category it falls into though???
Maybe it's more of not taking a spouse for granted, something like 'my spouse will get over it and I want to be the nice guy' .... IDK
It is definitely a part of 'don't be the cause of your spouse's unhappiness'.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 08:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Retread
"Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse."
and
"Never do anything that makes your spouse unhappy"

... DO NOT mean:

"Never do anything without YOUR enthusiastic agreement."


OK, I haven't read everything after this but . . .

I thought this is EXACTLY what POJA is? That we never do anything as a couple without enthusiastic agreement of both partners? Am I wrong, or is Retread, or is there some in-between that I'm missing?
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 08:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Quote:

"Marriage means that each spouse is commited to make a GREATER effort to care for each other than they were making BEFORE marriage, a GREATER effort to meet each other's intimate needs."


Speaking from my personal experience, THIS particular fundamental was a revelation for me !!!

I had become lazy in my M.
Yes.
LAZY.
I am ashamed to say .... blush My internal dialogue went something like this:

"Now that we are married, you must love me no matter how I treat you."


I have a great sotry about that Pep. It's about my parents, and it gets retold every thime we sit in the darn dining rooom for a family meal.

Before they got married my mom made wonderful candlelight dinners for my dad. After they were married and he moved into the apartment, at their first dinner after the honeymoon, my dad said, "So, can we turn the lights on to eat now?"

No joke. That story sadly formed the foundation of what I had always believed about marriage. Sad but tru. But, beliefs can change smile
Posted By: CWMI Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 08:34 PM
lol, I don't even know why he thinks it gets him liked. The last time this guy asked to borrow the truck, it was to haul tables for a party he threw that we were not invited to.

But, outside parties excluded, I don't think it's something that can even be addressed in the marriage unless the 'giving' spouse (as in, giving to others!) makes a solid commitment to POJA, no matter the (perceived) personal pain. I think it's a very personal image situation when one spouse is not willing to POJA when there's an outside party involved.

Guys tend to see that as whipped. laugh

I think it falls more into Freeloader territory, as in they're only willing to do what they feel like.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 08:38 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I would say that the biggest obstacle to my applying the MB principles is that I do not believe I can meet my wife's needs. When I think about embracing Radical Honesty and POJA, I believe we would fail. Because we would never be able to brainstorms solutions where we are both mutually enthusiastic. Because I fear I won't be able to satisfy her minimum requirements. So I am not enthusiastic about even trying. If I were honest, I would tell her to leave me for someone else who will. And can.

I don't think I am alone in having this fear.

Just saw your last post. That is me. No idea what I want. No idea what I am willing to give.


Have you ever thought about just accepting failure as a possible outcome? I have found that I often fear what I choose not to accept, but once I accept it, then my fear has less hold on me. By holding on to my fear, I hold on to being paralyzed. So what if I fail? If I don't try, I am guaranteed to fail, but at least I feel like I'm in control. TRYING means letting go of control, and if I fail, at least I learn from it.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI
Guys tend to see that as whipped.


That is exactly what I figured your husband would say. Some guys would be OK with saying "I would love to loan out the truck, but I gotta check with the wife first." Gives them someone else to blame. Other guys would feel "whipped" and would rather have body parts removed than admit they need the wife's permission for anything.

I kinda like the following dialogue for guys who fear being labeled as whipped.

Friend: Can I borrow your truck this weekend?
Hubby: Sure, I just gotta check with the wife.
Friend: You need to check with the wife?
Hubby: Sure, keeps us bonded.
Friend: Man, you are whipped!
Hubby: At least I get to play with the kitty.
Friend: So do I, and I don't need the wife's permission for anything.
Hubby: That's not what she told me when I was over your house last week. shocked

Might start a fight. But hubby won't come out of it looking whipped! wink

Whupped maybe, but not whipped. (hmm, where is the rim shot smiley?)
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 09:58 PM
A tale of two cars.

1981 we were married.
Right after we married, we bought a little sports car, together.
A cute red Datsun roadster. Used. VERY used. But, it was a jointly made decision, albeit probably a mistake. smile
It was OUR mistake.

One day, while I was asleep (I worked a hospital graveyard shift), DH traded in our joint decision Red Datsun roadster, and purchased what came to be known as "the divorce car".

My DH had learned this independent behavior from his father. His Dad went with DH to make this car purchase while I slept.
DH's Dad encouraged my DH to buy a car while I slept.
I will never forget that day.
I woke up, DH says to me:
(all smiles)

"Go outside, smile I have a surprise for you."

It was a boring little silver Toyota Tercel.
Where the HELL was my snappy red Datsun roadster??
Imagine DH's disappointment when I was aghast and angry about his "surprise".

I hated that Tercel.
Not just because it was a gutless wonder.
Not just because it was silver, not RED.
Not just because it was going to be 4 years of making payments for a car I did not like.

I hated that 'effin Tercel because it represented (to me) my DH's independent behavior.
redflag




(end part one .... stay tuned)

Posted By: markos Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 10:14 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I would say that the biggest obstacle to my applying the MB principles is that I do not believe I can meet my wife's needs. When I think about embracing Radical Honesty and POJA, I believe we would fail. Because we would never be able to brainstorms solutions where we are both mutually enthusiastic. Because I fear I won't be able to satisfy her minimum requirements. So I am not enthusiastic about even trying. If I were honest, I would tell her to leave me for someone else who will. And can.

I don't think I am alone in having this fear.


That sounds to me like a description of the "Creative Wilderness":

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html

Quote:
The creative wilderness represents the typical inability of couples in marital crisis to create solutions to their problems. In the books I've written, many solutions are suggested but they're only the tip of the iceberg. Many marital problems require solutions that are unique to certain circumstances. In this site, I put more emphasis on the process you should follow to solve marital problems than I do on the specific strategy you should use. That's because there are too many situations that require unique strategies.

A good marriage counselor is a good strategy resource. While you can, and should, also think of ways to solve your marital problems, a marriage counselor should know how to solve problems like yours. That's what you pay him/her to do! And his strategy should make sense to you. In fact, his strategy should encourage you in the belief that your problems will be over soon. Counselors often obtain special training for many common marital problems, such as sexual incompatibility and financial conflicts. These counselors can document a high rate of success in finding solutions to those problems.


Quote:
Because we would never be able to brainstorms solutions where we are both mutually enthusiastic. Because I fear I won't be able to satisfy her minimum requirements.


I'm by no means an expert, but I have the feeling that when you really follow the guidelines for negotiation that the potential is there that one side's requirements may change. You start out thinking you HAVE to have Chinese food. You discover instead that you are quite happy receiving spectacular emotional bonding over Italian, and you only want Chinese food with coworkers once every couple of months. One of the steps in negotiation is identifying the problem from both perspectives. When you discover that your spouse can't meet your "minimum requirements," they may change.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 10:29 PM
A tale of two cars.
(Part deux)

2009 I bought DH another car.
I bought DH an unnecessary car.
We already had 2 cars. (his and hers)
For a long time, DH had been thirsting for an impractical & unnecessary car.
A Mini Cooper turbo.

I was presented with an opportunity to purchase a slightly (and I do mean slightly) used, top of the line Mini, for a VERY reasonable price.
DH and I talked it over.
Yes, he still really wanted one, although it is impractical.
And, I bought DH the car.

It is our "I love you" car.

This AM, I overheard DH talking on the phone to a friend.
The friend had asked DH about how he came to own the Mini.

DH said:

"I never thought anyone would love me so much they would buy me the car of my dreams. But that's what happened. My wife bought me that car because she loves me so much."

I walked by as he was saying this, and I stickout stuck my tongue out at DH.

This is what I want to say to all of you on Marriage Builders 101.

We overcame our difficulties because we made changes in ourselves.
Marriage Builders really works.
We not only recovered a better marriage after DH's adultery, we are in love.

Yes, we are.
IN LOVE.

Our marriage is not just limping along, damaged after infidelity.
Our marriage is a smart, cute, fast Mini Cooper, blazing around with two 60 year old lovers inside, gazing at each other with gratitude, affection, and a deeper love than we had ever hoped.

We built this love.
It did not just happen.
We did this.

The process works!

Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 10:37 PM
Originally Posted By: CWMI

Guys tend to see that as whipped. laugh



Guys who are in unhappy marriages. Or, divorced.

If anyone thinks POJA with me makes my DH "whipped" ... DH would laugh and tell the "guy" how much I love him and how happy we are.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 10:41 PM
Originally Posted By: markos


I'm by no means an expert, but I have the feeling that when you really follow the
guidelines for negotiation that the potential is there that one side's requirements may change. You start out thinking you HAVE to have Chinese food. You discover instead that you are quite happy receiving spectacular emotional bonding over Italian, and you only want Chinese food with coworkers once every couple of months. One of the steps in negotiation is identifying the problem from both perspectives. When you discover that your spouse can't meet your "minimum requirements," they may change.


*sob* You have done your homework, markos! This is very true. Couples who are not in the habit of using POJA tend to view everything in black and white. But the more accustomed you become to POJA, the less black and white they are:

Quote:
At first, it may be very difficult to follow this policy, because you are in the habit of doing so many incompatible things. But if you follow it at all costs for a few weeks, you will find it easier and easier. You will also come to grips with the temptation of trying to gain at each other's expense. When one of you feels that it's okay to go ahead with plans even if the other person objects, you are simply saying, "I don't really care how you feel, I'm going to do it anyway because I'm willing to gain at your expense."


Another…

Quote:
What you are proposing is a situation where the first objective is achieved, but the second one isn't. You have eliminated incompatible behavior, but have failed to create a compatible replacement.

You've noticed that in your own experience, you have not found such an example. That is the experience of most people who have learned to follow the policy correctly. As it turns out, when couples are incompatible and have not been following the Policy of Joint Agreement, almost everything is "black and white." Decisions are often intentionally made to punish the other spouse for the last insensitive decision.

But when a couple learns how to negotiate in good faith, these areas of black and white fade into shades of grey. Spouses learn to respect their conflicting point of view, but also learn how to persuade each other without recrimination. They see each other's perspectives in a new and compelling light.

Having Trouble with the
Policy of Joint Agreement?
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 10:58 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
You discover instead that you are quite happy receiving spectacular emotional bonding over Italian


Markos, this is exactly what DH and I experience over Italian. Your wording nailed it.

smile

LA
Posted By: markos Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 11:03 PM
I used Amazon to peruse Dr. Harley's new Effective Marriage Counseling book a couple of weeks ago, and saw a distinction made that helps me. Dr. Harley talks about two kinds of resentment. One type of resentment comes from a spouse's thoughtless behavior: when your spouse does something without your enthusiastic agreement, you feel resentment because of their thoughtlessness.

The other type of resentment actually arises during the adoption of the policy of joint agreement. This is the resentment that comes from the POJA's "default policy." The default policy of the POJA is what you do when you are unable to come to agreement: nothing. For example, if you can't agree enthusiastically on anything to do for Christmas, you do nothing.

This is likely to leave one spouse or both feeling resentful that they aren't getting to do what they dreamed of for Christmas. But, there is a major difference in this type of resentment and the other. Primarily, this resentment is potentially temporary. Once you are further along the road to building romantic love, once you are further down the path of negotiation (including understanding each other's point of view and brainstorming), it becomes possible to come to enthusiastic agreement, and the cause of the resentment is over. Meanwhile, you passed through the crisis without engaging in love busters!

I believe Dr. Harley also highlighted some other differences in the two types of resentment, but that is what stuck out for me.

If you are stuck with the POJA's default policy on a particular issue (do nothing) and can't even imagine the possibility of an agreement that could one day resolve the issue in a way both of you are enthusiastic about, then you are in a Creative Wilderness:

Quote:
The creative wilderness represents the typical inability of couples in marital crisis to create solutions to their problems. In the books I've written, many solutions are suggested but they're only the tip of the iceberg. Many marital problems require solutions that are unique to certain circumstances. In this site, I put more emphasis on the process you should follow to solve marital problems than I do on the specific strategy you should use. That's because there are too many situations that require unique strategies.

A good marriage counselor is a good strategy resource. While you can, and should, also think of ways to solve your marital problems, a marriage counselor should know how to solve problems like yours. That's what you pay him/her to do! And his strategy should make sense to you. In fact, his strategy should encourage you in the belief that your problems will be over soon. Counselors often obtain special training for many common marital problems, such as sexual incompatibility and financial conflicts. These counselors can document a high rate of success in finding solutions to those problems.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html

Perhaps in your marriage you never encounter such creative wildernesses. I know, though, that they have been a huge problem for me, and I think I would be correct to say my wife has felt the same way. I can't count the number of times I've sobbed to myself saying "I don't know what to do" or told a trusted friend "I've tried everything." It's really soul-crushing to feel like there are no other ideas to try. I think that's why my wife so often has felt like there is no hope for our marriage. When Dr. Harley talks about a wilderness, he's describing a life and death struggle alone with no food, water, shelter, or amenities FOR MONTHS OR YEARS; not a pleasant camping trip and back to nature experience!!

If you find yourself in a creative wilderness, I recommend you not spend years there. I recommend you get help from a guide and navigator who can lead you out, someone with lots of experience and creativity.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8116_coach.html

Quote:

You can be the judge whether or not you need a coach for your marriage. I have created a plan for your marriage that will work if you both follow it. But if one or both of you are not willing to follow the plan, then you may need a coach to achieve what will be one of the most important objectives of your life -- to have a fulfilling marriage.

In the last newsletter, my article was entitled, "How to create your own plan to resolve conflicts and restore love to your marriage." I encourage you to read that article and create that plan. Then try to follow the plan until you and your spouse are in love with each other. But if you cannot agree on a plan, or if you can't motivate yourselves to follow the plan, then you may need a coach to help you do what you don't feel like doing.

...

I've found that the majority of couples do not need a marriage coach. They can learn to resolve their conflicts and restore love to their marriages without any outside help as long as they have a plan that works and motivation to follow the plan. I've provided you with that plan, now all you need is the motivation. But if either you or your spouse lack that motivation, don't go through the rest or your life with a loveless marriage, or worse yet, end it with divorce. Instead, get the help you need to do the right thing when you don't feel like doing it.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 11:09 PM
Thank you so much Markos.
hurray
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 11:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Dr Harley


I've found that the majority of couples do not need a marriage coach. They can learn to resolve their conflicts and restore love to their marriages without any outside help as long as they have a plan that works and motivation to follow the plan. I've provided you with that plan, now all you need is the motivation. But if either you or your spouse lack that motivation, don't go through the rest or your life with a loveless marriage, or worse yet, end it with divorce. Instead, get the help you need to do the right thing when you don't feel like doing it.


Amen to that! Is that out of the book Effective Marriage Counseling, markos? Did you actually get the book?

For me personally, that book opened my eyes to how this program is supposed to work in the most effective way.
Posted By: markos Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 11:33 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Dr Harley


I've found that the majority of couples do not need a marriage coach. They can learn to resolve their conflicts and restore love to their marriages without any outside help as long as they have a plan that works and motivation to follow the plan. I've provided you with that plan, now all you need is the motivation. But if either you or your spouse lack that motivation, don't go through the rest or your life with a loveless marriage, or worse yet, end it with divorce. Instead, get the help you need to do the right thing when you don't feel like doing it.


Amen to that! Is that out of the book Effective Marriage Counseling, markos? Did you actually get the book?


No, Melody, that's out of the second article I linked to, which you can read here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8116_coach.html

There are lots and lots of gems on this site. It bears re-reading many times. It probably would be smart for me to start a notebook of quotes or something. I'm about to start a near-comprehensive re-read of the site. smile

Some of the material from the articles I linked might be in the new book; I'm not really sure.

No, I don't have the book; I read every excerpt I could off of Amazon using their "look inside" feature. You get in there and start with the first page they will show and click "next page" repeatedly until you have read everything available. Then click "surprise me" and you will go to a new location in the book. Here's the trick: click back two pages from this point, because you are in the middle of a five page excerpt that has been made available to you. (I think it was 5 pages ... maybe it was 7!) Read all 5 pages, then click surprise me again. Repeat the process for awhile, and you'll get to read a nice healthy "I stood for what seemed like forever in Barnes and Noble looking at this book" chunk of the book. You'll start seeing repeats after awhile, but even after that you may get surprised with something new.

Eventually Amazon's systems will kick you out of that book, or out of the feature for the day, and that's how you know for sure you've seen all it's going to show you.

For the record, you still won't have seen enough of the book to keep buying it from being worthwhile.

I've done this with that Harley book and possibly another, and then several of Gary Chapman's books.

I always find myself doing this with marriage books, usually with something I've already ordered and am waiting to arrive. smile
Posted By: believer Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 11:36 PM
Kind of off topic, but I hope MB people will log onto Amazon and rate the book. I bought 12 of these for my kids and their girlfriends/boyfriends for Christmas, and was surprised that very few people had reviewed the book.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/08/10 11:55 PM
Originally Posted By: markos
[There are lots and lots of gems on this site. It bears re-reading many times. It probably would be smart for me to start a notebook of quotes or something. I'm about to start a near-comprehensive re-read of the site.


This is exactly what I have done too. I have about 10 pages of key quotes and their links to some of the most common situations.
Posted By: NoMatter Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/09/10 12:04 AM
I just wanted to pop in and say thank you all so much for your very helpful and informative discussions. I am really learning a lot.

Just the other day I got upset with my fiance when I found out he had purchased tickets for him, me, and two women (in a romantic, lesbian relationship that I have met once briefly) at work. I had never heard of the band before but apparently one of the co-workers he bought the tickets for introduced him to the band so he felt it was the gentlemanly/nice thing to do to buy them tickets to the concert. I wondered if I was being petty about this, after all, my negative feelings about it can't be about them being women because they are not heterosexual and therefore not interested in my fiance (at least as far as I know) - plus he included me. However, this was independent behavior which he engages in often and from you all I see that I am not crazy for being upset about that. Thank you!
Posted By: Telly Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/09/10 05:26 AM
Oh Pepperband,

What great stories about the cars!

Thank you so much for sharing that.

:-)

(and thanks to everyone else too for such a great thread!)
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/31/10 06:42 PM
BUMP for needinhope
kiss
Posted By: markos Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 06/23/10 02:05 AM
Bump, for everyone. Everybody ought to read this after they've read through the Basic Concepts, or even before. smile
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 08/30/11 05:23 PM
BUMP for KnoxVegasBaby
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 07/18/12 05:52 PM
BUMP for my friend KeepLearning!!!
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 07/24/12 09:36 PM
Thanks for the bump Sergeant! You made me smile. When I got to the very last post, after reading THE ENTIRE 18 PAGES, whew!, I was pleasantly surprised to see that you had thought of me. Thanks!

This was really good stuff to read. Some take-away points for me were (underlines are mine, what really stood out to me):
  • POJA, which is adopting the Buyer's strategy, which means you must consider both your interests -and- your partner's interests. [from Pepperband post of Harley quote]
  • Your Taker needs to be enthusiastic about every decision. [from Pepperband post of Harley quote]
  • A conflict avoider is emotionally dishonest. [from Pepperband post of Harley quote]
  • When we are together, we make sure we ... do things that are mutually agreeable to us. And when we are not together, we make sure we avoid any activity that would cause each other unhappiness. [from Pepperband post]
  • The goal of POJA is not to make anything happen or to solve all problems or even to find a way to do anything at all. The GOAL of POJA is to keep us in love with each other. [from Mark1952 post]
  • It's the same as changing the mindset about saving money rather than spending money. As long as you want to spend money, you will see saving and investment as a sacrifice which interferes with your immediate pleasure. But when you learn to enjoy having money work for you instead of your working for money, you will look forward to saving and investing, and see spending as a sacrifice that you must sometimes make. [from Retread post]

Even though there's an argumentative segment of this thread on sacrifice where one of the posters is asked to leave, the ideas tossed back and forth in that argument are good food for thought and helped me evolve my understanding of POJA.

I also liked your story about your cars (but was saddened to learn that you had to endure an affair frown I don't know if I could recover from that; I'd like to think I could, but I hope I never have to find out. I'm sorry you had to find out the hard way, and I admire you for being able to recover.)

There's a copy of post by Star*Fish earlier in this thread that talks about Givers and Takers and asks the question

Quote:
The giver is all about love and concern and the taker is our selfish side...so how can the giver be bad, or the taker be good?

It then follows with an explanation of how the giver can be be bad and the taker can be good which I found very enlightening. I'm more of a giver-dominant person, and I was particularly interested in how the giver can be bad. My therapist has been helping me with balancing my giver and taker; I used to believe that suppressing my taker was good because to do otherwise was selfish. She told me to think of it not as "selfishness," but as "self-advocacy." Redefining it this way has helped me with the giver/taker balance.

I think my giver-dominance was influenced by Christian education when I was growing up. I still go back and forth with this and am wondering if anyone has some insight. The Bible abounds with verses about humbling yourself, denying yourself, thinking of others more highly than yourself, etc., which seem to be in line with the giver-dominant personality trait. Yet I'm convinced by this thread that giver-dominance is destructive to a relationship. What's the correct way to align the idea that the giver can be bad with the Christian principle of self-denial?

Thanks again for the bump, Pepperband. As a result I ordered three Dr. Harley books earlier today:
  • Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders (how could I not?)
  • Effective Marriage Counseling (because of what Markos and Melody had to say about it)
  • His Needs, Her Needs for Parents (so that my order would be over $25 and I could get free shipping with Amazon; now my girlfriend and I will both have a copy and we can read it together!)
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 07/26/12 03:58 PM
You're welcome, friend.
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 08/13/12 02:53 PM
Thanks again Pepperband for turnnig me on to this topic. I started reading BRF recently, and it's very interesting. I'm only up to about page 40 or 50, but I like it a lot, and I would already recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it.

One thing that surprised me was Dr. Harley's description of his dating experience with Joyce. He talks about being a freeloader when they first started dating, changing to a renter, and then deciding to become a buyer by marrying her. The part that suprised me was that while they were engaged, Joyce actually dated someone else "as a last fling." They obviously worked that out, but he did say he had some reservations about whether she might repeat that after they got married. She assured him she wouldn't, and he believed her, but it must've been awfully unsettling to go through. I tried imagining how I would feel if I was engaged and my fiancee started dating someone else - at a minimum, I'd lose confidence in the relationship. I would expect my fiancee to at least break off the engagement before dating someone else.

He also describes Joyce and himself dating many other people before they married but not finding any that were as compatible as they were with each other. Their dating experience gave them both confirmation that they were right for each other. They were 19 and 20 when they married, and I wonder if such extensive dating is necessary for someone much older, say 40's or 50's. I would think by then, such a person would have a much better understanding of who they are and what they want in a marriage partner and wouldn't have to date 30 people to have confidence in their choice. Maybe not ALL people in that age category have that understanding about themselves, but I think some do.

Anyways, love the book, thanks for the recommendation!
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/19/12 03:32 PM
I have a question for students of Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders.

In the chapter "We All Have Split Personalities," Dr. Harley describes the pros and cons of the Giver and Taker in each of us.

In the two sections "The Buyer's and Freeloader's Agreements Resist Sacrifice" and "The Renter's Agreement Inspires Arguments and Fights," he goes on to say that Freeloaders and Buyers keep their Givers and Takers in check, but Renters do not, and this allows sacrifice into the relationship, which is ultimately destructive.

When I read those sections, it seemed to me that the Renter's agreement should be avoided.

But now that I'm re-reading the book and analyzing it, I found this in an earlier chapter describing the Renter's agreement (from the chapter "I'll Do Anything to Make You Happy...for a While"):

Quote:
I regard the Renter's agreement as an essential stage in the development of any romantic relationship.

If the Renter's agreement allows sacrifice, which is known to be destructive to a relationship, why is it essential?
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/19/12 03:49 PM
Dating stage
Posted By: dotnetdave Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/19/12 04:14 PM
Would also be in plan a as well?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/19/12 06:01 PM
Originally Posted By: KeepLearning
I have a question for students of Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders.

In the chapter "We All Have Split Personalities," Dr. Harley describes the pros and cons of the Giver and Taker in each of us.

In the two sections "The Buyer's and Freeloader's Agreements Resist Sacrifice" and "The Renter's Agreement Inspires Arguments and Fights," he goes on to say that Freeloaders and Buyers keep their Givers and Takers in check, but Renters do not, and this allows sacrifice into the relationship, which is ultimately destructive.

When I read those sections, it seemed to me that the Renter's agreement should be avoided.

But now that I'm re-reading the book and analyzing it, I found this in an earlier chapter describing the Renter's agreement (from the chapter "I'll Do Anything to Make You Happy...for a While"):

Quote:
I regard the Renter's agreement as an essential stage in the development of any romantic relationship.

If the Renter's agreement allows sacrifice, which is known to be destructive to a relationship, why is it essential?


Dating is renting. Trying the relationship on for size/fit, while not partaking in relationship negations per se. Taking the relationship for a test-drive, if you will.
Which is why living together while dating can be so confusing and probably mis-guided.
Often, in this modern world, dating couples move in together as "the next step". Meaning, I presume, a step towards marriage.
But, there's a catch. (as usual)

Dating while living together = rental agreement becomes the relationship standard.

Does this make sense?

Also, it was asked...

Quote:
Would also be in plan a as well?


Plan A is a time-limited provisional arrangement where the Plan A person attempts to make love bank deposits while not having his/her own needs met as they ought to be met. It is a tactical decision, NOT a bad habit that the couple adopts.

See the difference?

Also, Plan A includes the "stick" elements, which are definitely not passive sacrifice/appeasement during an adulterous time of the marriage. The key words are TIME-LIMITED and TACTICAL DECISION.

Nice to get an email notice there is activity on this thread. grin
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/19/12 07:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Dating is renting. Trying the relationship on for size/fit, while not partaking in relationship negations per se. Taking the relationship for a test-drive, if you will.
Which is why living together while dating can be so confusing and probably mis-guided.
Often, in this modern world, dating couples move in together as "the next step". Meaning, I presume, a step towards marriage.
But, there's a catch. (as usual)

Dating while living together = rental agreement becomes the relationship standard.

Does this make sense?


Not yet; but it might if you can help me understand a couple things.

Your statement "Dating is renting" throws me off because I think dating can either be freeloading OR renting. From the chapter, "What You See Is What You Get," Dr. Harley clearly states that he was a Freeloader while dating:

Quote:
I began dating when I was fifteen [...] Between the ages of fifteen and seventeen, I was a Freeloader. I expected the girl I dated to put up with whatever I had in mind

Assuming you agree that dating can be either freeloading or renting, what perplexes me is, why would you choose to be a Renter?

From the section, "The Renter's Agreement Inspires Arguments and Fights":

Quote:
While both the Buyer's and the Freeloader's agreements limit the influence of the Giver and Taker, the Renter's agreement places no restrictions on them. In fact, it actually encourages the worst influences of each.

Why would you want to adopt a dating strategy that encourages the worst influence of your Giver and Taker?

I'm not doubting Dr. Harley's assertion that Renting is an essential phase in the development of a romantic relationship; I just want to understand why it's essential. Clearly there's a drawback, but what's the benefit?
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/19/12 07:46 PM
PS, I get the part about Renting and living together. I'm thinking more along the lines of dating while NOT living together. Why not choose to be a Freeloader in that case instead of a Renter?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/19/12 08:05 PM
Clip of Dr. Harley talking about Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders
Radio clip on Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/19/12 08:14 PM
Thanks BrainHurts! I'm anxious to listen to that later tonight when I can use a computer that the radio clips work on.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/20/12 01:35 AM
Well we start as a freeloader and move into a renter relationship.
For example first date I freeloader. I go on a date with Sarah and she smells bad and her teeth are rotting. Also she only talks about something im not interested in , like termites ; I am not going to go on another date.

Then I go on a date with Michelle and she is pleasant and she has regular bathing habits and etc etc. I will try to go on a second date etc. then we may progress into a renter relationship phase prior to marriage.

A good example in action is a poster dating a girl named Nature Girl. They are in a renter relationship and preparing for marriage using MB principles.
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/20/12 02:25 AM
Hi HDW, that still doesn't answer the WHY. If the Renter's agreement allows for sacrifice in a relationship, which Dr. Harley says is destructive, why progress into a Renter's relationship? There has to be some benefit to entering the Renter's agreement that outweighs the destructive nature of it.
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/20/12 03:16 AM
Hi BrainHurts, thanks again for the radio clip. After listening to it, I still have the same question: why adopt the Renter's agreement?

In the radio clip, I heard Dr. Harley say two things about renters that seem bad:
  • Renters negotiate selfishly and not thoughtfully.
  • Arguing is the basic approach to problem solving for renters. (Arguing is a form of disrespect.)
So far, everything I know about the Renter's agreement seems bad. What's good about it?

Dr. Harley and Joyce reiterate that sacrifice is not sustainable. That makes me wonder.... could sacrifice be beneficial in the short-term? If so, maybe that's the reason the Renter's agreement is essential. And if that is the reason, then why is sacrifice beneficial in the short-term?

Another thing Dr. Harley said that I found interesting is that Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders are the three mindsets of people who are dating. Before hearing that, I was under the impression that dating relationships involved Renters and Freeloaders and only married people could be Buyers.
Posted By: living_well Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/20/12 06:02 AM
When you first meet someone new, your relationship is that of a freeloader but if you really like that person and enjoy their company you are going to gradually become renters because being with that person makes you feel good and so you want to make them feel good too so that you spend more time together.

But you are full of romantic love so your givers are out in full force. Your rental mindset is not a problem as you are only thinking about ways to make each other happy.

The trap people fall into is in thinking that this is 'true love' and can therefore last for ever but it can't. There comes a time when your taker re-emerges which is healthy because otherwise resentment would start to build.

That is why the gold standard is a buyer relationship where each has their giver and taker in balance. Nobody sacrifices, nobody compromises, both are honest. Negotiation and mutual respect rule the relationship.
Posted By: KeepLearning Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/20/12 01:36 PM
That's a great response, living_well, thanks!

Armed with the knowledge of what you wrote, and knowing that staying in a Renter's agreement too long is dangerous, do you think one could simply bypass the Renter phase and go straight from Freeloader to Buyer?

For example, if two people who understand MB principles well start dating and find they like what each other does to their Love Banks, could they skip the Renter phase?

I presume Dr. Harley would say no because he says the Renter's agreement is an essential step in the development of a romantic relationship. What is so essential about it?
Posted By: living_well Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/21/12 08:39 AM
Originally Posted By: KeepLearning

Armed with the knowledge of what you wrote, and knowing that staying in a Renter's agreement too long is dangerous, do you think one could simply bypass the Renter phase and go straight from Freeloader to Buyer?

I presume Dr. Harley would say no because he says the Renter's agreement is an essential step in the development of a romantic relationship. What is so essential about it?


I can think of a situation where you would go from Freeloader to Buyer. You would do this in a formal arranged marriage, where there is almost no contact beforehand. Interestingly, even in a more relaxed kind of arranged marriage where there is contact between the young people, the time between arrangement and marriage is kept short. I have never really thought about this in MB terms before but of course it prevents the renter's mindset becoming ingrained.

But in an arranged marriage, the essential compatibilities have already been determined by the parents of the newly weds. In our western culture we are expected to do this ourselves and that is why we spend time (too much time usually) as renters.

The other reason for having a renter's agreement is to get in the habit of radical honesty and negotiation over everyday little things (like where to have dinner) so that the habits are already in place before the marriage.
Posted By: TexasTwoStep Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 12/04/12 04:48 AM
bump
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 01/22/13 10:16 PM
Radio Clip on Freeloaders
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 02/13/13 12:01 AM
A Good clip on how a renter becomes a buyer.
Radio Clip on a Renter Becoming a Buyer
Posted By: BetrayedP Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 12:54 AM
Recently read this book and have a question: How long should one date? It seems that long dating relationships are doomed to fail because the renter mentality becomes engrained. Is it possible at all to be a Buyer while dating?
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 02:46 AM
You can on a trial basis but a buyer is committed. If I'm dating a woman and she has an accident and is permanently brain damaged I may reconsider commitment to her.
That is a renter.
A buyer remains committed.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 02:46 AM
The poster that married nature girl used poja prior to marriage.
His thread is in divorced forum
Posted By: LifetimeLearner Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 12:48 PM

I've heard Dr. Harley say about two years of dating. If there's still no move toward marriage after about two years, it's probably time to break off and date some other people.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 04:17 PM
Originally Posted By: BetrayedP
Recently read this book and have a question: How long should one date? It seems that long dating relationships are doomed to fail because the renter mentality becomes engrained. Is it possible at all to be a Buyer while dating?


Dating, by nature is a rental situation.
Once you are ready to "buy", you get engaged.
Then, you get married.

The answer to your question (how long?) is tricky.
I hope young people (under age 25) date longer than 2 years.
I hope recently divorced people date longer than 2 years.
I hope people with small children date longer than 2 years.

Never married, no kids, older than 25 .... I am open to shorter dating periods.
Posted By: BetrayedP Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 05:16 PM
2 years sounds okay to me. Pep what would be your upper limit?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 05:17 PM
Originally Posted By: BetrayedP
2 years sounds okay to me. Pep what would be your upper limit?


Are you dating?

PS:

Not sure what this has to do with Dr Harley's book.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 05:42 PM
I am glad for the clarification, because I think I misread that if you're not married within 2 years, it probably won't progress to marriage. Which confused me because I thought it takes 2 years for the PEA chemicals take 2 years to wear off.
Posted By: BetrayedP Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 06:41 PM
I'm not dating.. I was wondering in the context of my own relationship, as I dated my WH for a long time (10 yrs), and we argued a lot because of the rental situation. We wanted to get married, but young marriages weren't supported. I think I was able to translate into buyer, but not WH.
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 06:50 PM
When we get married we will have been together 6 years. We were common law for several years down south, and at this point I believe we are both buyers.

I wish in many ways that we had gotten married sooner. I also wish I had been a better woman and grew up quicker and became an adult earlier in our relationship, it would have saved a lot of heartache.

I've got the best man in the world. wink

We spent a while last night reading through this thread, lots of good info. Thanks Pep!
Posted By: BetrayedP Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 06:52 PM
In the book Dr. Harley states that the Renter relationship can't be sustained for long, because the taker comes out eventually and ruins things. That's why I thought the question was pertinent to the discussion of the book.

I suppose it depends on the nature of the two people involved i.e. how long it takes them to get their takers out, but was wondering if there was a recommended timeline where you wouldn't have to find that out, well assuming that you both become buyers at the time of the marriage.

I'm not interested in dating again.. hurts my head to think about it... besides I still have a marriage I am hoping to save. But in terms of advising others. I wouldn't have minded getting married at 21 (5 yrs dating) if our parents had been supportive. Water under the bridge, but I wondered for if I had to advise younger couples.
Posted By: BetrayedP Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 06:54 PM
Originally Posted By: HopefulNC
When we get married we will have been together 6 years. We were common law for several years down south, and at this point I believe we are both buyers.

I wish in many ways that we had gotten married sooner. I also wish I had been a better woman and grew up quicker and became an adult earlier in our relationship, it would have saved a lot of heartache.

I've got the best man in the world. wink

We spent a while last night reading through this thread, lots of good info. Thanks Pep!


Congratulations on your impending marriage!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/05/13 08:27 PM
Originally Posted By: BetrayedP
In the book Dr. Harley states that the Renter relationship can't be sustained for long, because the taker comes out eventually and ruins things. That's why I thought the question was pertinent to the discussion of the book.



Thanks for the clarification. I understand what you are asking now.

Well, my understanding is that RENTERS can get along for awhile based on one or the other sacrificing needs to keep their mate happy. Sometimes known as "compromising". An occasional compromise probably does no real harm, but a pattern of compromise will cause harm. The problem, as described by Dr H, is that this sort of "rental agreement" creates an environment of incompatibility.

Renter agreements cause resentments and often lead to arguments with no solutions.

Thanks BetP. I appreciate you being patient with me.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/06/13 09:17 PM
Originally Posted By: HopefulNC
When we get married we will have been together 6 years. We were common law for several years down south, and at this point I believe we are both buyers.

I wish in many ways that we had gotten married sooner. I also wish I had been a better woman and grew up quicker and became an adult earlier in our relationship, it would have saved a lot of heartache.

I've got the best man in the world. wink

We spent a while last night reading through this thread, lots of good info. Thanks Pep!


I would strongly encourage you counsel with the Harleys now and through the early parts of your marriage, since you are coming from a long renter relationship that involves lots of bad habits ... It is great you are getting married, but just to make sure you can beat the bad habits that were built you may want some extra accountability.
Posted By: Viscountess Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/06/13 09:54 PM
Originally Posted By: WalkinForward


I would strongly encourage you counsel with the Harleys now and through the early parts of your marriage, since you are coming from a long renter relationship that involves lots of bad habits ... It is great you are getting married, but just to make sure you can beat the bad habits that were built you may want some extra accountability.



I appreciate the advice. If we counsel with anyone it will be the Harley's but I don't feel like we need that at this point.

We've most of the Harley books and several others discussed here. We are both buyers now, we follow POJA, PORH and while we've had some bumps in our road we're really solid right now. We have been legally married for most of the last 3 years, once Amendment One passed in NC and then our move to Ohio we are not at this point, but our lives are still combined (finances, accounts, cars in both name, shared health insurance, etc...).

We are rereading the Love Busters and the new book from the Passionate Marriage author (it's so much better written!).
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/07/13 02:48 AM
On this topic, (I gave my copy of the BRF book away) do renters downgrade to freeloaders?
My wife had an affair and moved in with OM. we got divorced and she has lived with him for about 11 months.

I've "heard" (I have no contact with her) that their "relationship" has deteriorated and they are now living as "friends with benefits".

Am I correct that this is a downgrade from renter status to freeloader?

If so (my ex wife has never been able to keep a job) don't freeloaders expect each other to pay bills etc? She's living there rent free and he's a bumb on disability for alcoholism and craziness.

How long can freeloaders live together like this?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/07/13 05:10 PM
Quote:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.


Unmarried cohabitation can last years. They do not have any expectations about each other, or the relationship. They both only do what they want to do. They are only responsible to themselves. They see nothing wrong with independent behavior, because they are unattached. If they don't want to do something, they don't. Since there are no expectations for extraordinary care from each other, this agreement can go on for quite awhile. Plus, when it does come to an end, there are usually no lingering regrets on either side. They "move on" carrying no guilt or remorse.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/16/13 03:00 PM
Quote:
Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.


This is essentially what we agree to when we say "I do".
"Until death parts us".

Quote:
Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.


"That's not fair!" grumble , is not a way to negotiate your way to a happy in-love marriage.
Fairness is often subjective. What may seem "fair" to one spouse might seem like a miserable situation to the other spouse.

Quote:
Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.


Needs do change over time. Life hands us difficult challenges. We adjust together.

Quote:
Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.


When a RENTER listens to criticism, he/she asks himself/herself "Do I want to change?"
The BUYER asks himself/herself "How can I change to make my spouse/my marriage better?"


Quote:
Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.


This one is usually the most difficult for MB newcomers to grasp.
Giving away your own needs to make your spouse happy, will create an imbalance within the marriage.
"I gave him everything he wanted." <~~~ A Renter's lament.



Quote:
Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.


Short term fixes are short term. If you want a long term marriage .... go long.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/16/13 03:28 PM
This is very interesting to me. Every time I revisit this discussion about BRF, I discover more ways to improve my own marriage behavior.
loveheart
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/16/13 03:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Dr Harley in BRF
"The real commitment of marriage is not a commitment to stay regardless of how you are treated. It's a commitment to care for each other regardless of the circumstances you find yourselves in."


This is where some people falter. Some people fail to grasp that MB does not advocate remaining in an abusive, unsafe, chronically uncaring marriage.
"For better, or for worse" does not give license to be ugly and mean to each other.

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley in BRF
"Marriage means that each spouse is commited to make a GREATER effort to care for each other than they were making BEFORE marriage, a GREATER effort to meet each other's intimate needs."


There is an "Ah-ha!" moment when a MB follower has the dawn of realization that meeting the needs of their spouse is very rewarding. It is a challenge, yes. But, it's a fun & creative dance2 challenge. MB asks us to open up our imaginations and "brainstorm" solutions. This is why lazy people do not do well with MB concepts. They *feel* that if a marriage requires WORK, then "We must not be soul-mates after all." banghead
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/16/13 03:54 PM
Originally Posted By: living_well

The trap people fall into is in thinking that this is 'true love' and can therefore last for ever but it can't. There comes a time when your taker re-emerges which is healthy because otherwise resentment would start to build.


I like livingwell's description, but I wanted to add that the "true love" does last using this program as long as renters tactics are abandoned. That is the whole purpose of being a buyer. "True love" does not last in a renters agreement because it is fraught with sacrifice which causes couples to fall out of love.

The result of this program is romantic love, which is "true love."
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/16/13 03:58 PM
Why do married people have "big fights"?
What is really going on during a "huge argument"?

Quote:
... which brings us to POJA

which is adopting the Buyer's strategy

means you must consider both your interests ~and~ your partner's interests

up to the point of bilateral enthusiastic agreement

which means NO ONE sacrifices their happiness for the other's .... you seek mutual happiness


A marital fight/argument is one or both spouses making strained efforts to have their spouse see things differently.
What marital squabble ever ended in "mutual happiness"?

If you are fighting with your spouse, stop it.
There is no point to fighting.
Both spouses end up with hurt feelings.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/16/13 04:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
This is very interesting to me. Every time I revisit this discussion about BRF, I discover more ways to improve my own marriage behavior.
loveheart


ME TOO. smile I am amazed at how much my marriage has evolved over the years. One big difference is that we now are very careful to be "pleasant" during our UA time. No griping, venting, or unpleasant topics. At the end of our evenings, one of us will ask "was I pleasant tonight?" WE COMPETE to see who will be the most pleasant and charming. grin
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/16/13 04:04 PM
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
WE COMPETE to see who will be the most pleasant and charming. grin


It is FUN too!
Keeping the marriage love bank full and over-flowing makes the difficult times in life much easier to endure.
Posted By: living_well Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/16/13 04:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband

A marital fight/argument is one or both spouses making strained efforts to have their spouse see things differently.


It is incredibly disrespectful to try to make your spouse see things differently. It implies that your view is somehow superior.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/16/13 04:08 PM
Mel, it is very interesting when people read the MB concepts and discover more ways their spouse "needs to change" instead of learning how to improve their own marriage skills.

In my professional life, my licensing required "continued education" hours/units.
MB is sort of like that.
Finding ways to continue our education and deepen our skill level.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/16/13 04:10 PM
Originally Posted By: living_well
Originally Posted By: Pepperband

A marital fight/argument is one or both spouses making strained efforts to have their spouse see things differently.


It is incredibly disrespectful to try to make your spouse see things differently. It implies that your view is somehow superior.


Yes. It is important to express our point of view honestly, without belittling or casting disrespect at our beloved.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/17/13 02:58 PM
Quote:
There are three types of attitudes you'll find inside: freeloading free spirits, wait-and-see renters, and committed buyers. Healthy relationships should pass through al three stages, but it's easy to get stuck in a rut along the way.


This is a direct quote from the bookstore - 'The One' - which is exactly the same book as BRF.

Please note that is is HEALTHY to pass through all 3 stages.
When you are dating, you are not supposed to be looking for a person who is already a "Buyer".
I sometimes see dating MBers dismiss their date as "Well, he/she was a freeloader."

Of course he/she was a freeloader, you just began dating!

Additionally, a dating prospect who quickly and willingly makes sacrifices in order to be with you is NOT a "Buyer".

Questions? Read the book!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/26/13 03:09 PM
A Good clip on BRF. How does a renter become a buyer.
Radio Clip on BRF
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 04/27/13 04:52 PM
POJA = "a rule for thoughtfulness"

I like concepts taken down to the basic level, that's why MB works for me.
Both logical and basic.

You ask your spouse: "What would you think about me doing (this or that) ?"

If your spouse says: "I would not like that."

If you go ahead and do it anyway , you're being thoughtless.

Simple.
Posted By: thehappywife Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 05/03/13 03:18 AM
**edit**
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 05/20/13 04:01 PM
Quote:


Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.



What does a Renter's agreement relationship look like 17 years later?

*link* to a classic example of a long term RENTER's AGREEMENT

Edit to add:

I want as many MBers as possible to read exactly what Dr Harley wants all of us to avoid by following POJA.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 06/07/13 09:05 PM
Bump!

After just having read the book BRF, I got so much more out of reading this thread again.

Highly recommend the book to anyone who hasn't read it...
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 10/03/13 04:11 PM
Radio Clip
Segment #2
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 03/21/14 06:07 PM
Radio Clip on Electric Fence Personality
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/01/15 05:01 PM
Radio Clip on Buyer's Renters and Freeloaders
Posted By: KPT Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/01/15 06:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
POJA = "a rule for thoughtfulness"

I like concepts taken down to the basic level, that's why MB works for me.
Both logical and basic.

You ask your spouse: "What would you think about me doing (this or that) ?"

If your spouse says: "I would not like that."

If you go ahead and do it anyway , you're being thoughtless.

Simple.

I think you definitely need two people that are both signed up for the POJA theory to get the most out of this. Honesty needs to be key for the person responding. If the spouse really doesn't like the idea/action, they need to respond honestly.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 09/22/15 11:48 AM
Bump
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders - 10/23/16 03:09 AM
Eileen writes about dating and Dr. Harley's book "Buyers, Renters, and Free loaders." The book discusses how the giver starts out in control, and as time goes on, the taker starts to take over.

Radio Clip
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