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Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
I am trying to make a point to help other posters such as myself that disagree with the idea of "sacrifice" being a bad thing....


I am unappreciative of this thread becoming a debate about your ideas.

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy



It just kills you that i can make a point so all you can do is just be nasty to people......


She asked you politely to take it to your thread, SC. It is not "nasty" to point out that your own methods have not worked in your own marriage. If you are doing to continually dispute Dr Harley's basic concepts, folks need to know how that has worked for you.


However you pointed this out several times before Pep even posted.......

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Still Crazy, PLEASE take it to your own thread.

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Stop with the disruption and let this thread get back on track!


mbsurvivor11@gmail.com
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Question re/ friends of the opposite sex:

I use the word "friend" sparingly. I do have acquaintances...none of whom I speak with about things that my husband could not witness / hear. Some are male & some are female. IMO, certain female friends are very damaging to the marriage. By the same token, some women have had lesbian affairs. Doesn't the "friend of the opposite sex" thing depend lesss on the gender and more on whether the friend is a mutual friend of the married couple and that the friend respects the marrital realtionship?

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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Being a Renter is not a bad thing.
But, both spouses becoming Buyers (eventually) is a way better Marriage.


Quote:


According to Harley

most happily married couples have worked their way up from Freeloaders to Renters and finally to Buyers.

He says the problem arises when partners do not eventually become Buyers.


Ok ... back to the reason I began this thread.
To discuss and learn (together) how to apply Harley fundamentals to our marriages ....

This is a process, the way I understand it.
It's not a one time decision, but a daily process.


I have not read, and I am asking if anyone else has read, where Dr Harley discusses a time line where the majority of marriages (working MB) process from Renter to Buyer.

Anyone? What has been your experience (personally) of processing from Renter to Buyer .... Fast? Slow? Back and forth?

I know for a fact, that our M processed from Renter to Buyer at a rather "relaxed" grin pace, as a result of reading/application of Marriage Builder materials.


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Quote:

"Marriage means that each spouse is commited to make a GREATER effort to care for each other than they were making BEFORE marriage, a GREATER effort to meet each other's intimate needs."


Speaking from my personal experience, THIS particular fundamental was a revelation for me !!!

I had become lazy in my M.
Yes.
LAZY.
I am ashamed to say .... blush My internal dialogue went something like this:

"Now that we are married, you must love me no matter how I treat you."

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sacrificing in M = a renter, I'd never thought that way, prolly thought the opposite actually ...... sacrificing = in for the long haul = buyer. crazy

Since I consider myself the Queen of Resentment, I see now how my sacrificing damaged my M.
It prevented me from RH, cuz I thought that would damage my M.
By not being RH, I stewed, I DJ'd, SD and AO'd and became very bitter and resentful. Ooooh, I sound like an awful person don't I, but really I'm not, lol, just being honest.

So, in this state of resentment, I can look back and see how I also became super sensitive to some of my H's actions and decisions in other areas of our M, when in fact I should have been more understanding of his needs.
I got to the point that I would think 'hey, you owe me, why can't you just do this or that for me, or stop doing this or that!'

I don't have it all figured out yet, but I didn't ever see that my sacrificing, no matter what the level of it, was affecting my attitude towards my H.

Like a 'silent killer' you know.


M'd 22 years
BW-me
D-Day 08/08 LTA


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Originally Posted By: Vittoria


I don't have it all figured out yet, but I didn't ever see that my sacrificing, no matter what the level of it, was affecting my attitude towards my H.

Like a 'silent killer' you know.

kiss

Thank you for sharing this very important part of your personal story.

THIS is exactly what I am talking about !
Read/think/learn .... and then DO something different .... something that actually WORKS to build a more successful marriage.

I LOVE this !!!

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Another area, where I suspect many of us fail to do a good job BEFORE learning MB fundamentals ...

Listening to our spouse criticize us ..... with a Buyer's ear.


Quote:
Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.


It's sooooooooo naughty tempting to make criticism a reason to ARGUE instead of a reason to MAKE necessary changes.


MAN, this was so difficult for me, when I knew, how wonderful I personally was ... I mean, really, WHY would my H want me to change when I am so fabulous "as is"?
rotflmao

Lord, have mercy!

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Pepper, how about when the criticism comes as a response to our criticism of our spouse?

For instance: I tell my H that I don't like it when he loans out our vehicle against my will, and he criticizes me for being controlling and not trusting his judgment?

Is that a case for me to look at my actions and change?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Curious as to what the answer for this one is.

Maybe reframing it as a request: Please do not loan out our vehicles.

OR a statement: I am uncomortable when you loan out our vehicles.

What do the vets say?

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Originally Posted By: CWMI
Pepper, how about when the criticism comes as a response to our criticism of our spouse?

For instance: I tell my H that I don't like it when he loans out our vehicle against my will, and he criticizes me for being controlling and not trusting his judgment?

Is that a case for me to look at my actions and change?


I would agree that you are making an attempt to control what happens to your automobile, and I would agree that you do not trust his judgment about others he trusts to drive the car.

In order to POJA, you must begin with honesty.

Yes, you feel a loss of control over something important, like who drives your vehicle.
Yes, you feel your desires and needs are being ignored when H makes an independent decision without consulting you first.

It's a fact.
You feel the need to have a "say" about who borrows the car. And when.
It is a fact you feel H has not considered your wishes when he makes independent decisions over such an important matter.

Then, come up with a solution where both of you are happy.

Go back to the first page of this thread, and look at the conditions underwhich POJA must be made "safe" for both of you.

Then, post again.



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Guidelines for POJA

Guideline 1

Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.

...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.

...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.

...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~

Guideline 2

Identify the problem from both perspectives.

Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.

Harley says

Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.

It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.

(~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up*)

Guideline 3

Brainstorm with abandon

This is the creative part.

Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.


The goal is to please both of you.

Harley says

The secret to understanding your partner is to think like your partner's Taker thinks.

It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.



VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***

Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other.

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Makes perfect sense.

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Originally Posted By: ChrisInNOVA
Makes perfect sense.


Yes, but it does take practice.
And, in our M, I have recognized there is a POJA learning curve. (mine) grin



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Originally Posted By: ChrisInNOVA
Makes perfect sense.


Quote:
Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.

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I would say that the biggest obstacle to my applying the MB principles is that I do not believe I can meet my wife's needs. When I think about embracing Radical Honesty and POJA, I believe we would fail. Because we would never be able to brainstorms solutions where we are both mutually enthusiastic. Because I fear I won't be able to satisfy her minimum requirements. So I am not enthusiastic about even trying. If I were honest, I would tell her to leave me for someone else who will. And can.

I don't think I am alone in having this fear.

Just saw your last post. That is me. No idea what I want. No idea what I am willing to give.


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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Originally Posted By: ChrisInNOVA
Makes perfect sense.


Yes, but it does take practice.
And, in our M, I have recognized there is a POJA learning curve. (mine) grin




I would like some practice doing this in a conversation.

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Pep, we set ground rules where we weren't going to step on each other while we figured this out. Then we identified the problem: he wants to be seen as the guy who'd do anything for ya! and I have a need to not feel taken advantage of. We brainstormed a few solutions: any loaning would be done by joint agreement (meaning there is no Yes to others unless there's a Yes together), extended loaning was out of the question, and doing FOR instead of giving TO was a preferred way to deal with it.

Then he called and asked how I felt about loaning it out, I asked what for? He said he didn't know. I said find out and then we can decide and then he came home without the truck and threatened to divorce me for being a control freak. laugh

SH told me to let him handle it. I'm going to have to be able to handle it on my own eventually.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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