BaT is talking to TST...

HBH is praying...

Oh good!!!!....

Hbh, have you ever gotten around to discussing the MB weekend with BaT?

Not

What happens in his life if you stay upset?

You stay weak, controllable, and less functional and less powerful.

Since his affair was a power play it stands to reason that the balance of power you normally have when you are confident and assured is not the way he likes things.

Only now, when you are getting help to gain your power while he is hurting you, does he come forward and offer what you've needed to heal.

This dynamic is the root of the marital problems you face in recovery. He needs to become a worthy man in his own mind; a man who can stand side by side, instead of in a power struggle with a powerful woman. He doesn't know how to be strong without making you weak.

It's not evil. It's just immature and dysfunctional.

He has a lot of therapy and growing up to do.

And it just may be that he needs a career of his own.

Your next session with Steve needs to be about power struggles.

yes, but he's not really interested, but i'm sure it just depends on when I ask...sometimes he's interested in MB and sometimes he's not...

...he will go, if I book it, but i'm thinking he should WANT to do it....

Wonderful news!

TST is an awesome recovered husband!

Negative.

The only person I would apologize to is HBH, and that is only if I offended her.

My question about physical attractiveness compared to OW is based on my own experience as a BH.

I am fascinated by the phenomenon of affairing down.

Before meeting OM I had pictured him as a a complete physical superior to myself. I met him before I found MB and was shocked by his.....Lack of good looks. He does not suffer from male pattern baldness, as I do. But that is all he has going for him looks wise.

My question may have been blunt, but it was honest.

You, and your family are in my prayers.

This is no coincidence. He's been reading your thread. It's a shame it has to come to this to get him off of his a$$ but, if it finally gets him moving in the right direction then so be it. Amazing how when people start recommending Plan B then he is all of a sudden ready to do the work again. Funny how that works....eh?

Just don't allow him to get into this mindset that hbh is 'in the marriage at all costs for the sake of the kids'. You've alluded to this (if not outright said it) several times throughout your thread. Do you really think he is going to put in the hard work if he thinks there is no way you will ever leave him?? Talk about setting the bar low.... And the results this far are all the proof you should need.

You deserve to have the best recovery possible and to someday be happy again. Your kids deserve a happy mom.

I have always thought this was a major factor in A....


I don't know how this happened...really, I don't...because I haven't changed...the finances have changed a bit, but not me...the drive, the work ethic, the success, it was there when he met me...BaT used to think my achievements were something to be proud of...now its almost like I'm being punished

I hope not, although BaT's prior IC suggested this...we almost have this business on auto-pilot...

Do you believe that as a BH whose first child is an OC, that my self esteem has not been destroyed?

I will tell you flat out, I am not an attractive man.
OM's even lower attractiveness was...Unexpected.

1. Pam Anderson is not attractive.

2. If it was so (Witch I hoped it was not) it may help explain BaT's lack of willingness to reengage with HbH. This new info may have helped formulate an addition to her current Plan-A.

For example, my belief that Om was more attractive than myself caused me to start lifting weights again. A change that was not unnoticed by WW.

YOU
GOT
IT!



What about us BH's?

We're good Gack. I mean, don't be expecting that RV to arrive on your doorstep or anything, but we are good.


I had never heard of this before MB...but you know, its not just about physical looks either, for me at least.

I get really caught up in this...maybe because I think BaT must hate me so much...but either way, I just think it means something that OW is everything that I am not...

I mean, my 3 or 4 top things I find attractive don't change...I like dark hair, I like a good sense of humor, I like someone who is athletic...those things don't change...

Doesn't it say something that BaT chose someone who is SO different than me on every level???

WOW! Several BW's tell you that your question was insensitive, if not hurtful, TO THEM and quite possibly to HBH, and you dismiss the whole point because you are "fascinated".

You know, when one person is hurt by my words, I might dismiss them as overly sensitive. When several are, it might do me well to re-examine my own sensitiveness or lack thereof.

I'm surprised at how callous you were to fellow BS's .



Not sure how a question can be honest. Is there such a thing as a dishonest question??

On the subject of "affairing down": We've touched on this before. Everybody affairs down, because only a real loser with no self-respect would invade someone else's marriage and intrude into someone else's family.

And as to what attracts someone to this affair partner or another, well, it's really pretty simple:

"Status" is to women what "sexy body" is to men - an attribute with the power to cancel out all other characteristics.

A man with status in his field - whether it's elite pro sports or a corporate office or a high school football team - is going to be hit on by groupies. It doesn't matter what he looks like or what sort of person he actually is. It's the status that blindly attracts females.

It's the same way that a woman with a sexy body is going to be hit on by men with no boundaries. It doesn't matter what sort of person she actually is. It's the big boobs and the "I might be available" vibe that blindly attracts men.

We've had plenty of posters here on MB who couldn't understand what their WSs saw in their affair partners.

For BH: Did the OM have some kind of status in his field?

For BW: Did the OW display sexual attributes and availability?

That's what it was.

It says she made herself available.

It says the opportunity was presented at "the right time".

That is how inconsequential the OW is.

Mulan, I do think this was true in BaT's case as well. OW had a "cheerleader" type personality and was very flirty. Actual looks were just average but cute personality and 20-something body...she wore very revealing clothes, had a belly ring, etc

P.s. on availabilty...OW would have sex in bathrooms, cars, garages, so yeah....

Thank you SMB

THANK YOU SMB....Now MY jaw is on my keyboard....I've typed out about 5 different responses so far, but keep erasing them because I KNOW they would get edited......This is something that just has me befuddled, to say the least.....

not2fun

ps...HBH, I will get back with you on all of this tomorrow. I hope you sleep well tonight...and I will keep you and BaT in my prayers.....

HBH
I want to illuminate something that Just Learning brought to your attention. And by the way I just want to encourage you that you sure have attracted the attention of the heavy hitter experts on your thread so you are getting great assistance.

I am wondering about the structure of your relationship. If I recall your husband was an athlete. He was used to the limelight and being in charge in the game and all the trappings that come with the "star athlete image".

I am wondering if you are at a disadvantage because you are intelligent, and capable. You are the one "RUNNING" the business and by the sounds of it you are very successful. It sounds like your husband works in the business, but you are the brains behind the organization. And you are the one in control. Is it possible that as much as your husband enjoys all the trappings success brings, as much as you may try to support his position and contribution to the business, he realizes he is "not the star" you are.

I am anticipating like most successful businesses where husband and wife work, the home life and business life get blurred. He may have a traditional view of the male hunter, goes out, kills the mammoth and drags the meat home to the cheers and adoration of the village and his family. What I am wondering is your husband struggling with "ego" issues.

If so it would make perfect sense that he would affair down. He probably realizes that he cannot compete with you as he sees your success every day and likely knows that you are capable, intelligent, and provide well for your family, all the things that the traditional male role demands. So by having the affair, in a twisted logic kind of way he is then "the man", where his is the star as his sexual prowess is on display. His manhood is affirmed by adoring cheerleader. In reality he does not want the adoring cheerleader full time, reason tells him he really wants the smart capable woman. His ego wants somebody to be the cheerleader for him.

Personally I think he is embarrassed by the situation. I think rather than focusing on the fact that you need the details, I think he is focusing on the fact he will look like a shallow idiot. And he probably will, once the details come out. And in his mind his ego is going to take another beating. He is afraid of being humiliated in front of you when he wants to "be the man" in your eyes.

Question: Was he ever "the man" in your eyes? Did the balance of power shift over time in your relationship as your business became more successful?

It sounds to me you are too capable and competent for your husbands ego. I am wondering if he needs to see that you need him. I think this power struggle is an attempt for him to see if you really do need him. Your husband also may need to re-frame your relationship and what he needs or gets from it. Because I think he is tripping over his ego and it is causing you both pain. But he may also need to see or know where "HE is the man" where you are concerned, and not an errand boy or an accessory. I have a suspicion that he needs to ride in on his white horse and be the hero, or at least to be perceived as a hero.(I hope this makes sense)

He is talking to tst. So he may be slowly getting it. However it may not be fast enough for you, because as a successful business woman you are used to performance.

So the question goes to do either of your really understand what your real needs are? I have a sense that you will because you are going to find out with Steve H. But from what I can see from your posts as painful as this is right now you have a lot of things going for you. And as painful as this is the pain of separation and divorce makes this pale in comparison. You do not want to go down the divorce road if you can avoid it. It may take some patience, along with the reshaping and clarification of the boundaries. Hang in there, growth is painful.

Blessings
BCBoy

Awesome
I never intended to derail your thread, and did not expect the response I got.


I understand.
In light of things, the boat will be a fine donation on it's own. We do have some logistical troubles to work out involving it's transportation, but these are minor details.

On behalf of the association, I want to once again thank you for this generous donation. Look for the news letter to arrive soon, I am also going to throw in a an autographed baseball cap as a free gift.

Question, this is the boat we had originally planed on purchasing for the orginization. http://www.sunseeker.com/performance-motor-yachts/predator108.php

Unfortunately budgetary constraints due to a complete lack of donations made this imposable. Would you say that your boat is comparable in it's accommodations and range, or do we need to look at scaling back our ambitious plans for our operation?



Yes, but not about you.

What BCBoy posted above is an awesome post that may help explain this way better than I ever could.

Basically, like BC, I think BaT craves POWER to feed his ego.


Where was all of this outrage when I asked the same question to Jonpen in his thread?
Not one person said one thing! Jon answered the question, I told him to consider weight lifting if he has time to give him even more of a physical advantage over OM, and we moved on.

Double Standard?


An honest question is one asked with no malice or ulterior motive.

Compared to one asked deliberately just to cause an uproar.
(In Internet terms asking a question like this is called trolling)

BC, thanks for your insight...

Correct...BaT football season was ending just as the affair was starting up. BaT is an athlete, all the 20s-30s guys look up to him (he was the oldest memeber on his team). BaT is used to being the center of attention.


Everything you said here is true. I have said to BaT (and on my thread) that he hates me now. My DH used to praise my success...he would tell anyone who would listen how much I had acheived and how we went from rags to riches. My DH used to tell me how I was the most intelligent person he'd ever met and how he was amazed at what I had accomplished at such a young age. BaT says things like "you think you're so smart, smarter than everyone" "you think you're better than everyone else" I could go on, but you get it.

I know one thing that is VERY hard for BaT is that he talks to 100 people on the phone every day and they ASSUME that he is the one with the degree/owns the business (because he's the male) and so 100 times a day he has to correct people, "no, its not me, its my wife".

This stuff never bothered my DH, my DH was confident and strong. BaT is not confident, he needs "high-fivers" and POSOW to tell him how "awesome" he is.

x1,000,000 BaT needs to prove "something" to himself, I'm not even sure what it is...about 2 weeks after D-day, we happened to meet a 18 y/o athlete (who had won State the previous year)...so right then and there, BaT asks him to a "challenge" (friendly) in that 18 y/os particular event...of course, the 18 y/o beat BaT....but BaT really thought he could win against this kid. BaT couldn't have beaten that kid when BaT was 18!!!


BaT has told me this, flat out. It didn't matter what he said, it was "awesome". And he could explain the most trivial things to her and he was "amazing". I understand the line of thinking. I do not understand it coming from BaT. We are both althetic and very competitive in general...who wants to be the star on the loser team??? NO ONE. I would much rather be the average player on the most selected team....and so would my DH. Apparently not BaT...


Funny that you use that word...because I said something similar to him once. Bat derives his confidence from POSOW, "high-fivers", teammates, complete strangers at the gym....and he was willing to give up his wife and family for that...it just seems so shallow.

This is SO hard...because I struggle with his and SH spent one whole session counseling us on this. I learned very early in life that you have to do for yourself and make things happen. I did everything on my own and acheived a great deal. My mother says I'm "hard". Then I met my DH. He wasn't intimidated by me, he was challenged. Prior relationships were clouded by jealousy, my DH was not. I just felt like for the first time in my life I could "let my hair down". My DH had my back no matter what, he supported everything I did, every dream I had. And he always knew he was my rock. I said he "soothed my soul."

So this obviously came up in our session with SH, because SH asked the same question you did. And my answer was, of course he knew. BaT and I didn't have a "bad marriage"...we dated more in 2008 and 2009 than we did when we were DATING. Point being, I treated him just like I always had, I depended on him SO much. My DH was a buffer between me and the world. My family is coming into town...don't stress because DH will never leave my side. Issues at the office, don't stress because DH will take those phones calls, he will fire that employee. I could just go on an on because BaT (before he was BaT) just took care of me.

So we went for a walk after SH asked me that....and I just asked BaT..."Did I ever once make you think I could live without you?" He got upset/sad and said "no, you didn't...i always knew how much you needed me" or something to that effect and went on to say how this A was about him, not about me.


It does make sense. I just don't know what to do with it now. I think BaT always knew he was my hero...but, he would rather be a hero for POSOW. Being a good father and husband, doesn't feed his ego like being "awesome" to her fed it.

You are quite the comedian! I don't think you need to scale back, our boat will accomodate around 40 comfortably, so carry on with your ambitious plans


BC's post was great...just not sure where that leaves me