Hi everyone. Thank you all so much for my sanity - if I hadn't found this website within 2 days of my DD I would not be still standing. I have been reading all the articles and have ordered three books but really need any guidance I can get from those with experience. Sorry for the rambling and very long post - I have never posted in a forum before so hope there is enough details to get some words of wisdom. I doubt whether my WH will go on here at this point but also trying to word things so that nothing in here would be a LB for him if we manage to get into R. I really do love him and feel awful about how badly he has been hurting and will hurt as we both go through this as individuals and see if we can save our marriage (which neither of us has committed to fully at this point due to our confusion, hurt and lack of faith that the other can change).

I married my high school sweetheart (I am 38 and he is 39). We have always had an amazing connection as friends and I truly have felt passion for my husband since the beginning. I have had a lot of issues with my sexuality due to my own anxieties and family upbringing which has always been a frustration to my wonderful sensual and romantic husband - especially as he always thought I would loosen up and I made lots of promises about how it would be once things got better which never seemed to happen (and I never made the right kinds of efforts). I have poured way to much time into my career and always trying to please everyone else first which left him sitting on the side lines feeling ignored and he has had to watch me descend into a especially big funk over the past 3 or 4 years (after supporting me through stressful graduate school and several hell jobs over entire marriage). I never responded to all his efforts to make me happy, entertain me, take me out for dinners, etc and usually just wanted to stay home and watch TV after work trying to justify to myself that I was really exhausted and justified) - I realize now I was totally neglecting both his needs and my own and became a spouse not worth coming home to).

Now after 23 years of being together and 15 years of marriage (no kids thankfully to drag through this) I received a call from the OWH at my office and my world has collapsed.

My DD was Feb 15th 2010 and I learned that there has been an EA going on for at least one year and PA since last April (OWH caught them in parking lot but was torn about telling me - the OW has been open with the OWH about the affair since last April including blatantly going out to meet my WH for sex in her vehicle). All I know so far is they have had sex about 30 times and almost always met for cup of tea in her van, had sex and then went home - several times happened in our camper van that he told me was bought for me as a gift one month after the PA got going which really hurts!). The OWH told me the PA has created intense conflict in their home and much distress for their 5 children due to all the fighting - I feel sick about this but realize this part is not my responsibility which my WH agrees with fully). My WH has been in a very conflicted relationship with the OWH with all kinds of threats via phone going back and forth. On DD my WH sheepishly said he is in love with her when I asked him point blank but in last 2 weeks has retracted that and said he doesn't know how he feels and doesn't know what love means anymore. I realize I don't know everything yet and some of what I have been told is likely lies. Even when I first found out he tried to tell me they only had sex a few times back in April 2009 but when I told him not to bother lying as I had spoken with the OWH he admitted it was ongoing. The biggest hurt was learning that on Feb 14th when I was home alone waiting for him to get back from work he was actually meeting up with her after work for sex. He claims he never once thought about leaving me for her - has just felt like wandering around lost with no plan - he also said that because of things I had said in the past "If you ever cheat it is all over and I would never take you back" then once it started he felt so hopeless there was nothing to save and nothing to lose. He said he was so numbed out and had been in so much emotional pain he didn't believe I wanted him anymore and so didn't even think about the collatoral damage this would do to me. He seems truly devastated when I experience any sadness or grief but still seems really numb most of the time. He has read the articles in surviving an affair on MB and we are talking about the concept of love units and love busters as we try to live together without adding to the pain until we can decide whether to commit to R.

On DD I rushed home and without knowing about MB engaged in about 2 days of intense LB. After 48 hours I had the instinct to leave the door open for R if that is what I decide is best for me and decided to tone down my behaviours. I have allowed him to stay living in house (he had already separated from me to another room around xmas and I didn't realize at the time that separation is sign that affair is probably happening even though I knew something was dreadfully wrong and almost went into a breakdown just over that).

Prior to finding MB told him the policy to live here would be NC - he met with her Feb 19 2010 which was 5 days after DD (didn't have MB yet but I knew instinctively it shouldn't have been done in person). So far no evidence of any contact but don't feel like I can trust him - no current evidence of anything since NC day on his cell or emails. We have been living here as "friends" and I have been trying to do Plan A while I see what my WH is going to do and feel. I am getting better at not guilting or attacking him - has been several days now of my better behaviour. He is being very nice but seems numb or depressed most of the time. He animates with some smiles and laughs if we listen to music, make funny jokes or watch a funny movie. Sometimes I feel mad inside that he is capable of feeling happy given the circumstances and have to remind myself it is good to deposit love units. So far no evidence that NC has been broken - waiting for cell phone bill to see if her number is on it (he is unaware I know the number but is obvious from now checking the past cell phone bills I have always been in charge of paying that they talked a lot whether for minutes or an hour - his cell phone bills had been especially high this past year but when I complained he blamed it on his stressful job that does involve a lot of calls). He lost his job in the summer which I am sure made him even more needy and addicted to the affair but just rots my gut that I have basically been supporting him financially through all this.

I have several questions for now from those of you with more wisdom and less raw pain. My own role in not protecting us from the A included major problems with my mood and self-care. I have been very depressed after work (crash out with nothing left for him or myself) and pulled away from him sexually for years (including acting as if he disgusted me or didn't deserve sex) as i was stuck in a very bitter taker perspective. I have put myself on a major self-care plan like going to the pool, going for walks, putting more effort into my appearance, etc and that is really helping - also helping him see I can be a spouse worth having. My big question for now is that once he left me around xmas and told me he wasn't sure if he wanted to stay in the marriage (and before I knew about the A) my sex drive for him returned big time. All my worries about looking stupid or doing something embarrassing in bed have vanished in the face of this real loss and threat. To my surprise I am still very sexually attracted to him but don't understand whether I can be sexually intimate with him as part of Plan A if we haven't fully committed to R via MB. Of course we would use condoms until we both get tested for STIs - this is a major trigger for me as he complained that sex has always been awkward with me and we started using condoms when I went off the pill around the time the EA started - I am sure sex without condoms felt amazing so can't help but compare myself negatively to her sexually as from what I can read this will have been the best sex of his life. I get really triggered when he makes sexual gestures to me even though I so badly want to know that he still desires me. So far we have had some pretty hot fooling around sessions but stopped short of everything but actual intercourse. He himself has said we shouldn't go that far which is really painful to hear him having self-control with me knowing he didn't have the same control with the OW.

Also, I am a very obsessive thinker and get triggered by so many things so easily that remind me of her and images of them having sex - he can see that my mood crashes and I assume i need to really try and hide this from him? So hard and so much work.

I am rambling but feel so alone and obsessed.
Any wisdom will be appreciated even if it is hard for me to hear.

Lost but hopeful

Phoenix, welcome. You are not alone and you've been doing a good job so far. Well done. First off, not meeting his needs creates an environment for an A, but HE chose to have the A. It is his to own. He should not blame you for his lack of protecting your M. But it's good that you already see what needs to be worked on.

Your WH won't start unfogging until NC is put in place and kept in place. He should write an NC letter to OW and you should read it and send it. It should say something to the effect that what he did was wrong and he doesn't want to see or communicate with her for life. It's not a love letter.

He should open up his life to you. He should give you all of his passwords, etc. And he should answer ALL questions that you have.

That's a start.

If you can meet some of his needs then do so. If not then just try to maintain so you don't LB. He should try to meet needs as well, but most likely won't in the beginning. Spend as much time together just being together peacefully. I know that's hard. You don't have to make any decisions now so take your time.

Are you still in touch with OWH?

Thanks so much MicheleG - just connecting with real people who understand is so helpful.

I had a few calls with OWH right around DD and told him all kind of nasty personal stuff about my husband to throw back at the OW - including insinuating that my husband might have been sleeping around with men and women (total crap and my own bad behaviour when lashing out). Also said the OW was welcome to my WH as I was for sure getting D, blah blah, (doing all kinds of damage but was honest with my husband about everything I told the OWH including stuff I will not put here out of respect for my WH if we get into R).

For the phone calls with OWH we compared notes and bad things about our spouses - then my instincts kicked in that I needed to back away from emotionally connecting with this man in the same way that my WH connected with the OW.
No chance as he sounds like a total scum bag that has allowed me to have pity for the OW as her life sucks and she is clearly a totally damaged person lost - hard to feel threatened by a woman who would put 5 children through such pain and not have the courage to remove them from a horrible home - instead willing to salve her own pain at their expense with the love of my life (argh!!!). In the first few days after DD my WH told me that OWH is porn addict and OW claims he is emotionally and physically abusive to her and kids - my theory is this is how my WH initially got EA going as he became her protector and felt great (I made him feel like the opposite). My WH apparently threatened to expose the OWH at work for being a porn addict in retaliation for how the OWH was treating the OW - makes me sick to think of him protecting the OW as if she was his wife while not caring that he was wounding me in the worst way possible. The OWH played me a cell phone message of my WH the night of DD with my WH raging at the OWH for exposing them and my WH sneering that he would get final revenge by life with OW and raising their kids. He immediately was ashamed when knew I had heard it and again says didn't ever mean to do this with OW but just wanted to hurt OWH. He has paled at my suggestion that if he wants to start a life with her and her 5 kids then he can move out and get on with it.

I had been planning to use some contact with OWH to ensure NC being maintained but so painful to make any calls (only had about 4-5 calls in total with OWH not exceeding more than a few hours in total).

Then got weird request from OWH on behalf of him and parents of OW (who have also known about affair for months and confront her almost daily about dumping my WH who she allegedly defends as a good man and says she loves, etc). They are very strong Christians and the OW and family attend church - OWH has not fully exposed to pastor who only knows she is in EA with my WH and is starting to get physical with "hand holding" etc. If I had known about MB I would have told the OWH to immediately expose her to the pastor and other relevant church friends. The OWH basically asked if I would meet with OW and convince her my WH is an evil bad man. At this point I asked that he never contact me again and that if anything the OW should be at my knees asking for my forgiveness. I still have his number and feel tempted to ask him to let me know if he has hard evidence they have broken NC - however anytime I have mentioned I was calling the OWH (only in first week or so following DD) I can tell it was major LB for my husband. Don't want to risk my contacting the OWH leading to one of them breaking NC.
Please advise?

May or may not be true. WS lie. All the time. And they lie to protect their lack of judgment for doing what they did. Discount the negatives and concentrate on the road to finding a new marriage with you husband.

By now, you have discovered that the road to a happy marriage includes lots of stuff from both sides to make it so. And you are going to read the books, right. By no means does this justify the affair, that one is off the books so don't blame yourself.

Larry

Thanks Larry - I am most definitely going to read the books (hoped they would have arrived by now!) and will be interesting to see if WH takes initiative to read also - I am not going to nag him or pressure him but have calmly told him this is part of what I am doing to heal myself so I can be in a healthy romance whether we work it out or whether I move on to someone else after I have healed.

When he told me the negative stuff about OWH it was calmly and quietly and not in reference to justifying the affair (something he has not yet tried to do - has more expressed to me how sorry he is that he has hurt me so badly by coping with our bad marriage in such a horrible way). He said he respected my choice to talk to OWH and would not interfere but said something like be careful as he is not a nice person like you and expressed concern that there were enough traumatic details for me to deal with without the OWH giving me lies. The OWH admitted in our last conversation that he manipulated my words to him and blatantly lied to the OW about things I supposedly said - this was in the 5 days prior to NC and so was still communication going on between my WH and OW but who knows who said exactly what. I am assuming everyone is lying right now and will wait for more details to come over time. Everyone keeps talking about getting all the details about the A but I really don't know what to ask - I am assuming you avoid getting traumatic details about the sex stuff but focus more on where they met, what led to the intimacy, what they talked about, how they made each other feel, etc so you can factor that into meeting your WS needs if you both enter R?

I have SO MANY questions! Hopefully the forum members will have patience with my long winded posts until I can ask about issues in short form!

Trying not to blame myself.
Thanks again as at least I can reread everyone's support and advice to keep me grounded.

STOP!

If you haven't already done so, either go to the top menu on this page or the one on the right hand side and start reading.

Start with basic concepts.

Then come back and post how you think they apply to you

Have the two of you written a no contact letter and jointly mailed it?

Do they work together?

Larry

I obviously need to slow down and not just vent on the forum!
I have started a new post where I focus a single question about a particular concept (e.g., is this behaviour a LB? etc).

PS: They don't work together but he was working as coach with her children which is how they initially met. My WH has left the teams and started new job last week. Should I ask him to write NC letter even though we don't have a mailing address for OW - only other option would be to write and send via text to her phone and sign from both of us? I am scared to ask him to do this when he has already broken off with her and not yet committed to R. Do I ask anyways?

Hey Phoenix:

you just need to decide if your're husband is worth all those years....yes did you do things wrong....you seem to know that you did....is he a scum bag....or just someone who is human who got caught up in something horrible...his choice...yes....wrong choice.....yes,....you hurt.....yes...

lot of years....lot of pain.....lot of joy....what do you want....there is so much good info here on this site...just decide what you want... love him....want him.....value everything about the both of you together....then fight...and fight the mb way

I would not recommend getting involved too much with OWH. I doubt he's a porn addict or anything like that, that's WS babble/justification for the A. You have compared notes, both of you know that the other BS knows and will be watching your respective spouses.

In my sitch, the OWH IS unstable. I had to cease contact with him because it became apparent that he was using me to stalk my FWH, and his contact with me quickly evolved into threats against both my H and myself. He seemed to be using contact to further his desire to keep the A aftermath alive and interfere with my healing. I had to put a stop to that.

Have been following advice and reading SAA which thankfully arrived.
My WH and I have been spending lots of time together doing things we used to - going to pool for a workout, went for dinner and movie, etc. He is increasingly physically affectionate but we have both decided that we will not go all the way unless both fully committed to recovery. I am hoping for now I am showing him I can meet his need for SF - he commented that some of the things I did made for one of the best make out sessions we have ever had - I felt the same way so not faking it anymore on my part.

When he heard about Emotional Needs Questionnaire (told him I want to learn more about his needs so I can meet them) he suggested we fill it out right away and we had really good conversation with lots of ownership on both sides.

He doesn't seem to be in big time withdrawal but assuming worst is yet to come.
This morning gave me several big hugs and told me he felt a connection yesterday that he wants to build on today.

My main problem - as soon as we have some nice time together I can almost pretend it didn't happen and I want to get going with R and fully be with him. Then I get hit by backlash of incredible pain and depression/sadness/anger - he then asks if I am ok very tenderly but I am worried I am taking love units out - I just regroup and try to focus on something positive so he can't see my pain but SO HARD.

I am hurt that he has not done a full NC letter yet - met with her 5 days after DD and told her NC and over because wants to explore what is left of connection with me (but didn't do the "I will never see you again for life" part).

My questions:
When do I push for this vs. see if he will start reading SAA and offer himself?
What is appropriate pain to express about the A and how do you avoid your tears, etc from being LB?

Thanks again for all the words of wisdom - bless you all.

Such helpful advice. Just got back from a 4 hour snow shoe which shows I am taking care of self and burned off some emotions (also talked with a friend who will support us if we do R).

So far have been able to do SF without intrusions.
My WH says we "have to stop" before we go all the way even though he has told me he has never wanted me so badly.
So painful to hear him having "restraint" with me when didn't with the OW.

Question: Will it be a disaster if we do have sex all the way and I get upset? So far SF has felt amazing for me and surprisingly no intrusions because I am FINALLY in the moment and thinking about what I want (which is what he says he has always wanted as part of his SF needs- to see me enjoying myself and him being able to share that with me). I am terrified that given all is going so well that "going all the way" will cause me to have a flood of images and I will freak out (massive loss of love units and more difficult to overcome next time).


PS: Hope I am not offending anyone by talking openly about the SF but it is his #1 need and I want to show him I am a new woman - added in some lingerie, etc already with great results. He texted me several times today to put my mind at ease about where he was and assuring me I didn't have to worry about where he is.

In my opinion, if SF is his number one need and you're willing, you guys are making a big mistake not going all the way right now.

Use a condom, of course, in case he has any STDs (I think some remain latent for a while? Not sure, research that). But definitely be working to fill his love bank.

I don't understand why you guys want to wait to have full penetration sex until you're both committed to R. SF is how you GET to R. It's almost like saying "I'll cut down on my caloric intake when I start dropping pounds".

If you end up loving it, great. If you end up crying and immobilized due to painful thoughts, so be it. Just be honest with your H about how you're feeling, without LB. Telling him you hurt, or you're angry, or you're scared is not a LB as long as you don't yell at him (angry outburst), or assume he should know how you feel or how to fix it (disrespectful judgment) or any other LB.

You can't walk on eggshells trying not to make him feel bad. That's not AT ALL what recovery is about and it's quite damaging to a marriage. Think about it - honesty and openness are not only in the EN list, but also in the LB list. Why do you think that is? Do you think honesty might be REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT in a marriage? You bet!

So yes have rabid wild animal SF with your H and if it's a negative experience, tell him how you feel, look to him for comfort and support, and get back on that horse.

FWIW it sounds like you're doing GREAT.

Oh, and yes you should ask him to write a NC letter.
Don't demand, don't bribe, or threaten. Just tell him that you feel it's important and that it would mean a lot to you.

How hard could it be to find her mailing address? You know OW name, OWH name, and the area where they live. Have him write it by hand, you read it, and if you're happy with it, you mail it.

Sample NC Letters

Why haven't you gotten tested for STD's? The two of you need to go in and get tested.

As far as no SF until he is committed to recovery, since that is one of his top needs, I would meet that need once you get the all-clear sign from your doc.

I am already scheduled to see doc for testing. I have told WH I need him to get tested - especially as we have always preferred condom less sex (OW was on pill and I was for 20+ years until several months before SA began). We don't plan to have children and so will likely have him get vasc. if we stay together. For now I will use condoms and plan to invite my WH to come with me to my doctor appointment. By then we should have more love units and will be very careful with condoms until then.

Have mentioned that would like him to do NC letter and he has read on coping with infidelity on website along with how to end affair. He was confused about why he has to do NC letter given that already told her NC and broken things off - seemed to understand when I pointed out the NC" for life" is different than "can't see you as I want to see what might happen with my wife" and ending with a kiss, etc. So far hasn't offered to do NC but will repeat request gently in next few days or so as R is conditional on this - I realize this is not negotiable and if he declines no chance for us. I can have letter sent to her workplace (which maybe will help with her feeling a bit exposed as OWH has not fully exposed to anyone other than me and her parents). I believe WH will do the NC and I know that withdrawal hasn't really begun until we do this - in mean time will show him I can be the spouse he wants and deserves and go for big time love units (plus all the Plan A stuff is making me feel stronger, happier and more grounded which will help me even if things don't work out).

Do you think it would help him if you showed him some examples of a NC letter? Maybe he doesn't know what it will entail and what you would want him to write. I would print up some of the sample letters and ask him what he thinks.

Is it possible that he is concerned that he might have an STD? I'm a little unclear about this business of not 'going all the way' with your own spouse.

The NC letter is hard confirmation that the A is over, and is something he needs to do for YOUR recovery. He should not delay in doing this.

Talked to WH yesterday and expressed my desire to go "all the way".
We talked openly for quite a while and he was surprised I wanted this (felt it would be disrespectful to even ask for this given what he has done to me). I explained some of the MB principles in light of the results of our ENQ (SF was his #1). Have spent the weekend together going "all the way" many times, going for dinner and movie, going for hike, etc (rest assured we are being safe until tests for STD completed).

Feel the best I have felt with him in years and total connection despite the roller coaster of pain and hurt I am still on. We talked again about the NC and he said will do - I can sense it is like putting fingernails down the blackboard for him but he knows it is necessary. He is talking more and more about the details behind the A which helps me understand and answers some of my questions - fog seems to be slowly lifting. Just hoping he steps up big time and doesn't delay the NC.

Question: How often should I bring up the NC until it is done? (obviously in a non-demanding non angry non judgmental kind of way).