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He deserves your admiration for those competencies. Start there.
I believe it's the underlined word that is currently frustrating HbH.
She did admire him, she did look up to him, she did need him, it just wasn't enough for BaT, he needed more.
I don't think she feels like he does deserve her admiration at the moment. But it is obviously his highest need, so she will have to fake it for now.
What if this comes at the cost of her own self worth and ego? Her giver is about to collapse from the effort, and her taker is starving!
I just hope BaT gets a cranial/rectal extraction performed before HbH's taker assumes command.
She doesn't have to give up her own self worth and ego!!!!
Clearly it needs to be understood that HbH's worth is autonomous from her husband's sense of worth.
But she has a responsibility to not kick a weak man while demanding he be strong!!! To refrain from kicking him doesn't mean she surrender her strength! It means she step up to a higher level of herself - her strengths - ALL of them - not just ones she gains at his expense!
[quote=KaylaAndy] I will try to do better with DJ. But the truth is I don't admire BaT.
I hesitate to jump in on this discussion because i am far from a vet and you are already getting advice from many of the forum's best but here goes... Your above statement ultimately became the hurdle that I had to overcome in order to R my M and my own feelings of love for my WH. He was a liar, a cheater and had a pathetic need for admiration on top of what he had become in my eyes. I actually had to imagine that my WH (not my DH) was dead in order to come to terms with this.
One night when he was late coming home and my anxiety was in overdrive I convinced myself that he had been killed. I began to think of all of the wonderful things about him that I would never have in my life again. The thought of death took the choice out of losing him for me and i sat down with my journal the next day and wrote down the things that I admired about him. Very many of those things had NOT been changed by his adultery. I came to grips with the fact that I was married to an imperfect man who had made horrendous mistakes and he was married to an imperfect woman that was unable to see his shame and effort and love because i could only see his betrayal.
I did not forget the betrayal after that but it was the turning point in our R. I began to show him the admiration and apreciation that he needed and he began to become the man that I had fallen in love with so many years before. The wall that he had built around himself even before his A dissolved in the next few weeks. A man whose #1 EN is admiration and a woman who can find nothing about him to admire have no chance of R.
Also, Kayla's last post was spot on.
God's Blessings,
Say
Me, BW-57 FWH 54 4 kids and 4 grandbabies between us In recovery since D-day, May 28,2007 FWH never onboard the MB boat but still clinging to the side. One day at a time by God's grace.
Everything you said here is true. I have said to BaT (and on my thread) that he hates me now. My DH used to praise my success...he would tell anyone who would listen how much I had acheived and how we went from rags to riches. My DH used to tell me how I was the most intelligent person he'd ever met and how he was amazed at what I had accomplished at such a young age. BaT says things like "you think you're so smart, smarter than everyone" "you think you're better than everyone else" I could go on, but you get it.
Well this really helps clarify the situation. Initially you guys started out as equals of sorts, and then you outdistanced him and continue to do so. I sense despite all the chest thumping in sports (challenge to 18 year old) he is very insecure as he ages. He is becoming more aware of his own mortality. I don't doubt he is proud of you, but at the same time he is also jealous of you. You are like the team that can't be beat so initially the the competition is fun, but if they beat you soundly every time it just becomes an exercise in humiliation, cause you know how much better they are. So how does he get his ego needs met in your relationship?
Notice how frequently athletes will high five each other. It is an exercise in constant affirmation. When I read your post I thought of the father of a friend of mine. His wife was complaining he never told her he loved her. He responded with "I told you I loved you when I married you, if I change my mind I'll let you know". I think your husband needs to feel those continual high fives from you. He needs to know where you are vulnerable and that he is "the man" for you. I think what has happened over the years that you got better and appear more powerful (hard as described by your mother?)
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Then I met my DH. He wasn't intimidated by me, he was challenged.
I think this has changed
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I think BaT always knew he was my hero...but, he would rather be a hero for POSOW. Being a good father and husband, doesn't feed his ego like being "awesome" to her fed it.
I don't think he does know anymore. I think he really would like to be your hero but I sense you are so self sufficient he may have lost sight on how that is possible. I don't think this is about him even "liking" the OW, in my opinion I believe she is just a vehicle to salve his ego.
Where does this leave you? This leaves you to show him how much you need him. Yes you are successful but he needs to know every one half hour (emotional and physical high five) he is still "the man".
From what I can see this issue is very fixable. However this may be the clash of the Titans as your ego has also taken a beating. However if you can take this experience as a learning experience I think you guys have the opportunity to build a strong marriage. However I am beginning to wonder if this is more of an issue of two egos (both of you sound very capable) having trouble fitting into the same room.
So how are you going to get (or allow) him to mount his white horse and ride to your rescue? Or how are you two going to build a "high-five" scenario every half hour. Maybe in your business (he is handling 100 calls per day) maybe he needs an impressive title, whatever. You are bright, and you are also the caretaker of his ego. He was getting some of his ego needs met through sports, and that was acceptable. Then somewhere along the line the balance of power shifted in your relationship and he no longer felt like "the man" with you.
Everything I have read tells me you are bright and capable. So I ask you "how are you going to make him feel like the man?". Because he wants it from you. This A is shallow. However it has served as a vehicle to shake your ego, and cause you both to wake up. Perhaps one day you will be able to look back and say it was the event that caused you two to build a stronger marriage. For the sake of your children, and all your family I hope that is the case.
Believe me if you can avoid Plan D do so, the impacts are far and wide, and they have a dramatic impact on those that have no choice in the matter, your children.
I beleive their best bet is to POJA a new "plan" to the management structure of the business. They are smart people...with some thinking they can surely come up with a plan that includes giving BaT more responsibility so that he feels like a partner and not an employee. They each bring something valuable to the business...they just need to make the footing equal and POJA can allow them to find this place.
You beat me too it! Become partners, not boss/employee. I totally agree with this. I would love to have a husband that I worked with every day. Few couple have such an opportunity. Make the most of it!
Me, BW WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
I am broken...and wondering what will be left of me...
HbH, HbH
Ohhhhh sweetie.... Broken is OKAY!!!!! Because it's when we are broken that we finally see that there is a problem and we can finally begin the hard work of fixing it. Will it be easy? I wish I could say it will but usually it isn't. BUT I can guarentee when it's done it is worth the journey!!!!!
Kayla gave you some AMAZING starting points and insights...(Kudos to you K!!!!!... ). She was so invaluable to me at so many different points in my own journey. You will learn a lot from her. It was funny that she wrote what she sidi because I was seeing the same things about your sitch myself.
I will say again I think you and BaT have a GREAT chance at Recovery. I am very encouraged by YOU being forthright about yourself and your M. Yes this is hard, very hard, but you have an oppertunity to create a marriage beyond anything you dreamt possible.....
Kayla gave you some AMAZING starting points and insights...(Kudos to you K!!!!!... ). She was so invaluable to me at so many different points in my own journey. You will learn a lot from her. It was funny that she wrote what she sidi because I was seeing the same things about your sitch myself.
If Kayla gave great insights, it's because I'm living this nightmare right now.
Kasey has a new love - it's Second Life.
I am the financial support for the family. He made some amazing effort six months ago and finally started earning an income, but it's with an unstable company and it doesn't cover any more than the 1st mortgage. Then he stopped putting in more effort to build his business. He's been working hard sawing sawdust, so to speak.
Then one night PBS had a documentary about Second Life - and he decided he had to try it out, even with my side-talk about problems with it.
I tried POJA. Right now, he's still on Second Life - 15 minutes after I told him that at some point, financially I would have a choice to leave him to Second Life if that was what he wanted.
He's still on it.
Blatant disrespect.
And I know exactly where I stand.
I'm angry.
I'm enraged.
I'm weakened by the financial situation we're in right now.
But I'm going to channel my anger and do my very best to focus that energy into some choices for me.
I'm developing my action plan now.
And he's still typing on his Second Life Chat.
Wow.
I'm blown away by this.
So HbH - if you want to get strong, I need to also get strong and smart about making two jobs work for me.
Want a Self-improvement buddy?
edited to take out likely timeline - since I hide nothing from him and he knows who I am and can likely read this if he starts getting anxious - Kasey - I will do this - I promise. Just keep testing the boundaries that I cannot live with!!!!
I am the financial support for the family. He made some amazing effort six months ago and finally started earning an income, but it's with an unstable company and it doesn't cover any more than the 1st mortgage. Then he stopped putting in more effort to build his business. He's been working hard sawing sawdust, so to speak.
KA, some people deal with criticism by working harder and some deal with it by withdrawing. Looks like your husband is dealing with your criticism by withdrawing into the fantasy world of Second Life.
What if instead of what you posted above, you had written:
"Kasey and I both support our family financially. He worked really hard to find a job despite the current recession and his own self-doubts and we were very lucky he kept at it until he found work. I'm grateful he did, because we no longer have to worry about finding money to pay the first mortgage, which of course is a large expense. We are going to work together to pay down our excess debt so we can enjoy our lives instead of having to constantly worry about earning more income."
Do you see the difference? If your H's efforts are downplayed and disdained, pretty soon he'll stop making them.
I get your point. For six months, that's exactly what I did. I was his cheerleader and encouragement. Every time we paid the mortgage it was with appreciation for his efforts.
Second Life created an escape where he took no action and became a different man. My feelings that I vented with last night were the first time I had vented about anything with regard to his efforts.
This morning he's into the "I can't do anything" mode. Claims that the work he did six months ago was luck and nothing but luck. I can't keep propping him up against his own stinking thinking and told him I was too tired to rebut point by point; that he would have to do that now.
He knows I'm on the Plan B prep march. Second Life finally closed up 45 minutes after I mentioned the boundary. As soon as I walk out the door in 3 minutes to go to work, my guess is it will be back on.
He's addicted. I'm not playing codependent anymore. I don't have the emotional bank account left for him to squander. It's been draining constantly. Two days ago our son needed his help, but since it took him away from the *%&^&$ computer, he jumped on our son's case. It's an addiction. And it lets him escape from the self-loathing he feels as a result of not working.
Gotta go. I hope he does something different. His dialogue is so negative. I just have to put my nose to the grindstone anyway because I have no strength to carry him too. I. Just. Can't. Anymore.
Everything was going well after TST and BaT talked....BaT seemed "ready" to do the timeline.
We went for a walk last night and I laid out my boundaries. I had been working on a list for the last two nights. Anyway, BaT agreed to all of them and even added to them some things he thought would help "protect" him.
Then we got back, and he told me more details...not doing the timeline, just telling me...the story is never the same twice, we got into a huge fight. I told him to leave while we were arguing ( I KNOW, I KNOW, not good). But then I calmed down, told him twice that I didn't want him to leave. But he left anyway.
He texted after being gone 5 mins, asked if this was what i wanted. I told him no.
He waited about two hours and then came home. He stayed on his computer for an hour or so and then came to bed.
Well, the first thing I did when I woke up was to check his computer history. He was looking through old pictures of POSOW. I can't believe it. I am still in shock!!! It has been 6 months of NC, or so I thought, who knows. BaT says that he was just looking at pics of the kids and family and she was "in the background". Well out of 300 pics, she's probably in 100 or more...
I am just SO hurt. Last night on our walk, he said if there was ever an incidental meeting in our old home town, he would turn and walk away and call me immediately. But he will sit in front of his computer and go thru pics of her?? Lies, Lies, Lies.
OK, well, I guess at least I know where I stand. Hurts, but at least its the TRUTH.
added to them some things he thought would help "protect" him.
Did he say these things were to protect "him"?
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Well out of 300 pics, she's probably in 100 or more...
Is this a shared computer? WSs do not think straight and are thoughtless. I understand you are hurt but I am not surprised that BaT did something like this. Whether or not you have reached your limit is for you to decide but I'd get rid of all photos that have POSOW in them or anything else like gifts she gave your children, etc. You don't need to see that crap.
BW - me exWH - serial cheater 2 awesome kids Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot. --------Eleanor Roosevelt
added to them some things he thought would help "protect" him.
Did he say these things were to protect "him"?
Well, in the context of talking about what my boundaries were, he added some things that SH or maybe TST, i don't know anymore, had talked to him about...an example is not striking up conversations with memebers of the opposite sex (BaT talks to EVERYONE, cashiers, salespersons, male and female, old and young, ugly and cute) but the point was, that no more chit-chatty with females. I was glad (last nite) that he was saying things like that...made it seem like a legitimate effort on his part.
Originally Posted by black_raven
Is this a shared computer? WSs do not think straight and are thoughtless. I understand you are hurt but I am not surprised that BaT did something like this. Whether or not you have reached your limit is for you to decide but I'd get rid of all photos that have POSOW in them or anything else like gist she gave your children, etc. You don't need to see that crap.
Its not on his computer...we cleaned those off...its from one of those camera cards that come from your digital camera and we have a TON of them...he just found one last nite and decided to go through it....
I know I need to get rid of them all, but you can't imagine what that is like....I have thousands, literally, and she is in about 1/3 of them with my kids...not always her face, but in the background...her leg or her hand or something...I know I sound like a crazy person..but I just can't go thru all of those right now...she's in every scrapbook...everything...
I know I have to get her out of everything, I just wanted to be in a better place...
I am just screaming on the inside...I feel like he's cheated all over again...
). She was so invaluable to me at so many different points in my own journey. You will learn a lot from her. It was funny that she wrote what she sidi because I was seeing the same things about your sitch myself.
